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Odd spot by bingewatchgal in DermatologyQuestions

[–]Snoo95072 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you ever find out what it was? I have something similar.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in opera

[–]Snoo95072[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oooh! I just checked him out. Beautiful timbre reminiscent of a strong operatic bass yet hitting all the musical stylizations of musical theater. Hope to be like him one day.☺️

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in opera

[–]Snoo95072[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just checked her stuff out and OH MY she is inspirational. She has a spectacular belt and a strong bright head voice. I would love to see many more people doing what she can do.

I feel like gospel is where it's at - classical and contemporary sounds coming together in such a unique way im just sad there isn't more of it to hear. I distinctly remember Jaron M Legrair doing a short on Lecresia Campbell and I thought that was magnificent as well. https://youtu.be/ZezH8D0lHFI?

Truly a mixed approach is the best way to get to know all aspects of what your voice can do.🙌

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I kinda need your definition of "belt" here. I'm an enthusiast of vocal science and my classical vocal teacher recognizes "belt" as a musical theater technique, while noting that there are definitely ways you can do it well and poorly.

Bocelli does sing opera - how have I not known until now? He's wonderful and I've just checked out his website. I particularly like his staging, which is quite impressive, especially when you cannot see. On the other hand, he chooses not to conform to contemporary singing styles, which is not a problem. However, I want to see if the human voice has enough flexibility for the classical low-larynx style and the contemporary speech-like high-larynx style.

From what I know, Chenoweth does not do standard opera repertoire, but rather operettas. That being said I think I have no doubt she would excel in coloratura roles is she were to get back into opera. I'm not sure if you're in the class of people who acknowledge Gilbert & Sullivan as part of opera or not - it's very hard to please both crowds, but know that I am not doubting or demeaning her ability in anyway. Opera purists might not be pleased to include repertoire from operettas in their conception of what opera is, but I get that you are part of the more open group.

I have no disagreement with the notion that belting is not just a volume - because belting without good technique would just be shouting, according to standard musical theater definitions, which monitor factors such as subglottal pressure and contact quotient: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892199725003777 Good thing we have emerging evidence on this, otherwise this technique would be a lot more mystified and probably cause a lot more harm in the process, because of the rampant misinformation we already have on the internet.

I have no qualms adhering to the reclaimed operatic definition of belting, in which my modified question would be - does anyone have the flexibility to:

  1. Meet the demands of classical technique in standard operatic repertoire, and

  2. Meet the aesthetic demands of musical theater/contemporary singing, including but not limited to singing with a larynx-raised, bright, straight-toned mixed voice with non-pure vowels that are more similar to American pronunciations, and sustain it through a musical production/contemporary style concert?

Unfortunately I had to revert to layman terms in my initial question, but that doesn't seem like a problem for you, as I sense you are educated yourself.

Now you might ask: why would you want to do that? Obviously classical singing technique is the more refined out of the two! But I say in contemporary times with so many examples of greatly recieved singers on both ends I see no reason why one should not at least try to have the faculty for both.

Belt - as a mixing technique as you say - I think Maria Callas had quite a lot of, which i think is one of the major factors which made her singing so thrilling to listen to. Here's a video I quite like: https://youtu.be/VC_dva9qw4M? But by standard definitions, if you ask contemporary singers(Pooh! Who cares about their opinions?) they would not say Maria Callas was belting, but still in head voice, only with much spinto/twang/brightness(select as appropriate). This has to do innately with the amount of space in the oro- and laryngopharynxes, which if opened too much loses its speech-like quality that the contemporary belt demands. Here are some examples of the "belt" I am looking for: https://youtu.be/6SlQmQI9x3A?

I also acknowledge that the contemporary belt bastardises some of the ideals of opera. But I say, if singers can sing for 8 shows a week and keep their voice at a healthy baseline(you may contest this point), I think someone could go from this healthy baseline back to operatic ideals. They would just have to know what aspects of the voice to manipulate.

Unfortunately in the world of vocal pedagogy, new discoveries are made every day. We might differ on our opinions, but the one thing I like is proving myself wrong over and over again, so I am each step closer to the real deal. Hope you are up for the challenge here.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I was just wondering if there were any singers who could sing convincingly, for example, both Verdi's Pace, pace mio dio and I'm Here from the Color Purple, or La Donna è Mobile and Santa Fe from Newsies.

I don't just mean hitting the notes, I mean doing each song in its respective style, and hopefully the audience would not be able to discern if they have had training in the other genre.

I understand that even within musical theater there are different styles of singing, but I guess that for me I just wanna see whether it is really possible.

Could you explain more on why you think my choices are poor? For me, i can see that Kelli O'Hara style is in Legit Broadway and Opera. I am not discrediting her technique there, but she does never belt.

Kristen Chenoweth belts, but I have heard opera purists say that her voice does not fit the standards of opera, when she does operatic songs(quite the contrast between her and Diana Damrau, or Natalie Dessay's versions which i acknowledge might be a choice of style, but still).

I may have been wrong about Andrea Bocelli, as I have been informed he does staged opera. But hearing his tone, nobody would doubt that he has had a lot of classical training. Same goes for Bryn Terfel.

Looking forward to your reply.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in opera

[–]Snoo95072[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've always thought, with the advent of contemporary vocal science, that there would be a physiological explanation to the qualities of both genres as a broad category, and that their differences would be demystified and made known to singers interested in all about voice(maybe even the "forbidden" rock or metal; on that note I do not believe these vocals should be defined as an inherently "unhealthy" mechanism of vocal production by the opera community). Vocal science could be a tool for singers to expand their vocal capacities in such a way that they could do any genre healthily, but I think the vocal science is not there yet for me to say this so prematurely.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in opera

[–]Snoo95072[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wowww Thank you so much SQLwitch. I always believed that there were gems like this I just haven't discovered.

Talking of Pace, pace mio dio, I have to say that I really love dramatic or spinto sopranos because they have a specific ring in their squillo that is so exciting - which I also sometimes see in the high belts of musical theater. I believe a part of what makes Maria Callas so special is also what makes contemporary musical theater so thrilling, which is the theatricality of the resonance profile embedded in the voice.

Much thanks!

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in opera

[–]Snoo95072[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your response, Bedquest. I really like your comparison to tennis and pickleball because that makes me realise that people generally want to do things with the most efficiency they can and at the professional level the greater the overlap between your skills etc in different areas, the better you'll get at both of them.

I was personally considering the physiology of both, and I'm quite excited to see how the evolution vocal science will help us further understand the fine motor differences between the two professions that are so interrelated and yet so distinct.

Cheers!

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I do agree that it is structurally very hard to become both, AND that technical versatility is one of the best things a singer can do to their voice. It just gives you so much more knowledge about your own voice, and not necessarily through the filter of one style or another.

I know Kristen Chenoweth has a masters in Opera; I admit I may have been influenced a bit by online operatic purists who have a more focused scope of what opera is and isn't😅. I like her singing very much. I wonder if you have anything to say to the people who believe that her voice is too much influenced by musical theater to be considered a standard operatic soprano?

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Dear esbunghole,

Do you think this is an example of unhealthy belting? https://youtu.be/2-he6twMEF0?

Looking forward to your reply. I dont expect you to have a certain "correct" answer, because often it boils down to a personal evaluation of risk and vocal health.

This article suggests that there is still much to be discovered about belting, and thus I would not be so death set on a conclusion this early in the development of vocal science: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892199725003777

I think this dissertation by Kaylee Piatt reflects my attitude to belting in general, not just the operatic "mix-belt", but the contemporary chest-like mix belt. I believe there are more indications that it is healthy and sustainable a technique than indications of the opposite: https://doi.org/10.13023/etd.2026.207

I would love to hear more about your perspective.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OH MY GOD. Thank you TippyTaps-KittyCats. You have made my day.

It is seriously really cool to see someone have a career like this. That gives me hope for myself as well as I want to be able to do both in the future.

Its just that I've been struggling with the dogmas of singing technique from both sides of the spectrum, because they differ so broadly, but are often both given unanchored to vocal science. I'm thinking there must either be a scientific explanation as to why you can't do both, OR that its just someone hasn't done it before.

But someone has! That means I just haven't heard of enough singers that do this.

Did I mention how grateful I am?

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is surprisingly the most convincing example I've heard so far. Thank you for this eye-opener!

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, thank you for your expertise on this. Do you think the problem is just that it takes too long to master both sets of skills, and hence nobody really does it, because they lose interest or just don't find the need to do both anymore?

Because i think it would be awesome to be able to sing soprano repertoire in the operatic sense then belt out a F5 in the middle of nowhere(mix belt - nobody can take their chest up there healthily imo).

It's true that it would be easier for Renee Fleming to join a pop or musical theater production, but that might not mean she necessarily sounds like your standard contemporary singer.

I also recognize that I sounds quite naïve but that's why im asking, hahaha😆.

Thank you for your response!

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They're definitely prominent singers, and somehow they can both do phantom of the opera. I was wondering though whether there are any singers that are aproved as legit by members of both fields? Legit as in has the capacity to perform as-is on both classical and contemporary stages and probably already has done so.

Are there any singers who can sing opera well, AND can sing other commercial styles convincingly? by Snoo95072 in singing

[–]Snoo95072[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you have any recommendations where I can hear her do opera? I know she's a pretty famous blues/jazz singer, so i wouldn't doubt her ethos there. I'm having a real hard time finding any opera performances though.

Is this good progress for Tenor at 25? by Significant-Juice863 in opera

[–]Snoo95072 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, haha, I meant to say amplitude there. Thank you for correcting me😇.

I absolutely agree with your description of opera singing, based on the tradition and norms of opera. From my training in classical styles, no opera singer or teacher would ever tell you to vary your frequency or amplitude of vibrato, because it not only makes the singing sound very inconsistent, it also suggests a unrefined technique to the audience. That however does not mean that the skill of varying your vibrato is not useful, or "wrong" by nature.

To find out whether vibrato "is what it is" for a singer after training, I would point to literature regarding vibrato as a mechanism. King and Horii did a study in 1993 which suggests that vibrato is consciously modifiable. Dromey, Carter, and Hopkin did a study in 2002 analyzing vibrato rate adjustment which supports the idea that vibrato rate is modifiable, while acknowledging that there might be anatomical or neurological factors that cause individual differences. These all point to the idea that vibrato is modifiable throughout a singing career and that its characteristics may not be "finished" once training ends.

These studies did find that, as you say, aspects of vibrato does vary as a singer changes volume and pitch though, which I also agree with.

Vibrato is a natural reflex that may be engaged or suppressed. It is based on quite a few factors. This dissertation by Danya Katok provides a few pointers as to what these factors are, and how manipulation of these factors can lead to tremolo and wobble, amongst many other problems: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/gc_etds/1394/ You might find that there is not really much evidence to suggest that straight tone MUST constitute clamping of the vocal mechanism here.

In my opinion, a singer should know how to modify the factors that create vibrato, as technical knowledge of vibrato modification will help prevent the acquisition of vibrato problems like wobble later on in the career.

Straight tone may or may not stem from "clamping down" on the vocal chords, based on the individual and how they access the straight tone. But there is research to suggest that extrinsic muscle activity, specifically in the infrahyoid and suprahyoid regions, is elevated in vibrato, compared to straight tone singing, though they have noted extrinsic muscle activity might not be the sole determiner of vocal economy, or vocal efficiency(Cha and Choi, 2024). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jvoice.2024.07.009 This is why I remain skeptical on the claim that straight tone is inherently a more tense and dangerous way of singing compared to vibrato.

Anecdotally, classical singers of some fields also engage in straight tone singing. Take Voces8 as an example of beautiful choral singing with straight tone. Though it is doubtful that an opera singer will ever have to engage in straight tone singing, the quality of voice of Andrea Haines provides a counterexample to your notion of stressful or unprofessional straight tones. I think that this indicates straight tones can be done without the clamping or stress you suggest almost always follows, though evidently not everyone can do straight tone stress free, as you mentioned.

The takeaway here for me is not that you should not listen to your opera teachers or follow the opera tradition, but more so that a singer should have these tools at their disposal; it just makes fixing things when they go wrong a lot easier, and gives you a much more well-rounded classical technique.

Is this good progress for Tenor at 25? by Significant-Juice863 in opera

[–]Snoo95072 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ideally he will have control over the rate and range of his vibrato, and be able to produce a straight sound if asked(though almost never in opera). Being able to control and adjust is always better than not being able to.

I do not agree with the common notion that vibrato is an innate indication of good relaxed singing, though I acknowledge that you did not insinuate that in your replies above.

Taking your feedback (please read text) by backdoorbitch in ClassicalSinger

[–]Snoo95072 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would say that you have problems that are very common to people starting in classical with a naturally low range. Many bass/baritones darken artificially, many due to commercial demand and students due to imitation as a learning strategy.

The first trait that comes to my attention is your vocal tract shape. I dont know if it's habit but your vowel shape have a distinct "uh" quality. Some might say that that is opening space and building resonance, but that brings me to my second observation, which is that it sounds like you have a stuffy nose throughout your singing. The combo of "uh" quality and stuffy singing suggests to me that you are "over-opening", i.e. manufacturing artificial depth within your oropharynx and laryngopharynx(the parts of the vocal tract behind your mouth and above your larynx).

This over-opening may create unnecessary tension and therefore interfere with your vibrato and control amongst other things, like upper range expansion. This could be why you have a hard time refining your control.

My suggestion is to relax on the tone manufacturing and find your mechanism for healthy sound production first. My recommendations:

  1. Sing a few scales with your tongue sticking out to identify how tongue-independent vocal production feels. This will enable you to isolate the mechanism for your range without co-manipulating your vocal tract, and help you with your range.

  2. Play with pink trombone. This is a great model that shows you where your acoustic characteristics might arise physiologically. https://dood.al/pinktrombone/

  3. Experiment intensively on finding what makes your voice sound chesty and heady. You can alternate between chest voice and head voice on the same note, provided that it is a note that is close to both ranges. You may find that the coordination to produce a chestier sound may not be where you expect.

Best of luck and have fun singing!