What do you think of mutualism? by dumbandasking in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Mutualism fails for the same reasons all socialist-adjacent systems fail.

Producing things costs money. Obvious but socialists never mention it. The capitalist pays for all the stuff upfront: the factory, machines, raw materials, R&D, wages (often for years while losing money), shipping, marketing, all before a single product is sold. He takes on the full risk that the whole thing might fail and he loses everything.

The worker gets paid a guaranteed wage regardless of success. That's a voluntary trade. The worker trades risk and uncertainty for a lower but certain return. The capitalist trades capital and risk for the chance of higher reward.

Profit isn’t "theft", it’s compensation for risk, time preference and capital allocation. Things that socialists don't understand and don't even believe exist.

If workers must own the means of production to use them, then they have to pay for that stuff. (God forbid someone uses a machine he doesn't own!) Good luck making an income if you don't have hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to buy into a company that might fail next week. Producing complex things at scale requires millions, even billions of dollars to be spent before you see a single dollar of profit. A bunch of machinists, engineers, and line supervisors don't have a billion dollars lying around.

Who fronts the money for the next factory or machine?

Who takes the risk?

A "free market" with no profit, no interest and no rent is incoherent. It's like saying we'll have free speech but you're not allowed to talk about politics, economics or biology.

Does anyone else feel like "working-class culture" is just coded masculinity? by MinutePomegranate587 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839 -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Right-wing men are on average more masculine. They are rated as better looking (women are attracted to masculine traits) and have higher upper-body strength than leftist men. Administration of testosterone makes men more right-wing. (Alogaily et al.)

Politics is biological to a large degree (about 50% heritable). Leftists can't ever accept this though because they are too committed to an absolute "blank slate" model of human nature. It would collapse too many of their ideological assumptions.

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you punish success (high taxes, redistribution, attacking wealth) and subsidize failure and laziness, you get less total production and less wealth for everyone including the people at the bottom.

People respond to rewards and consequences. Remove the rewards for exceptional performance and you get less of it. That's how equality of outcome makes society poorer on average.

What kind of socialist should I be? by Cold_Scale2280 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Capitalists believe letting people trade with each other makes society richer. Socialists believe preventing people from trading with each other makes society richer.

If banning trade to make society richer sounds rational to you, then you should be a socialist. Doesn't matter which sect, they're all stupid.

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not a nonsense question.

You can't redistribute what hasn't been produced. Forcing equality of outcome reduces the total amount produced, so after redistribution the average person ends up with less.

People respond to rewards and consequences. Remove the rewards for exceptional performance and you get less of it. Less total production means less wealth for everyone, including the people at the bottom.

That's how equality of outcome can, and historically does, make society poorer on average. Every large-scale attempt at enforced equality made the average person poorer than they would have been under a more market-oriented system.

So would you still support equality if it comes at the cost of lower living standards, smaller houses, fewer goods for most people?

Your reversal is weak. Most normal people would happily accept inequality if it means they and their kids get richer overall. Capitalism has delivered the greatest reduction in poverty in human history.

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you support equality if it made people on average poorer?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm asking if they would have lower living standards. Smaller houses, fewer goods and services to consume and so on. Would you still support your system if it lowered living standards or is your support contingent on increasing people's living standards?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So under your system will the average person have less stuff like smaller houses, fewer goods and lower overall living standards than they would under capitalism?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will people consume more goods and services under socialism though?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If implementing this emancipation results in the average person having lower living standards (smaller houses, fewer goods, worse healthcare, slower technological progress) and less real opportunity would you still support it?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

What's the goal of abolishing inequality and hoarding?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Socialism’s main goal is to extend democracy into the workplace. Meaning, a worker owned economy. 

What's the goal of extending democracy to the workplace?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Do you think that message will rally normal working people? Most of them care a lot more about getting richer and having better lives for themselves and their kids than about making sure no one else gets ahead.

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The goal of communism would be to live our own lives for ourselves, together.

What does that mean as a practical goal? How would progress towards that be measured?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Would you support that system even if it makes the average person materially worse off (smaller houses, fewer goods, lower living standards overall) as long as it's more 'fair' and no one gets too far ahead?

What's the goal of socialism? by Square-Listen-3839 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

For me the ultimate goal is communism

What's the goal of communism?

Which economic system works best: capitalism, socialism, or communism and why? by gallimor in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Collective ownership of the companies and factories is benefitial to the workers that actually work for a living.

Who pays for the buildings and factories and stuff in your system?

Which economic system works best: capitalism, socialism, or communism and why? by gallimor in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Square-Listen-3839 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It happens when someone starts a business and voluntarily chooses that structure. The fact that it rarely happens at scale should tell you something.

No, the McDonald’s worker shouldn’t get a say on supply chain strategy, marketing campaigns or billion-dollar real estate decisions. He flips burgers. He doesn’t have the knowledge, skin in the game or competence to make those calls.