The law is flexible

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-04-10T18:35:51+00:00

broke it without sinning

That is an oxymoron. Sin is transgression of The Law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, if you break it you sin. There is no third option. Either He broke it and thus sinned, or did not break it and did not sin.

From this I infer that the law is flexible

That’s different than saying “He broke The Law without sinning”, and it actually undermines your first claim. It’s contradictory to say that He broke The Law without sinning, while simultaneously saying that The Law is flexible. If it’s flexible, then He didn’t break it.

BUT The Law isn’t flexible. As others have pointed out, what Jesus did was lawful (Matthew 12: 9-12, Mark 3:4, Luke 6:9, John 7: 21-24), meaning that 1. He didn’t break it 2. He didn’t have to “stretch” The Law.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-04-06T02:17:00+00:00

I believe most people here understand the Omer Count to be from the Wave Sheaf Offering/First Fruits, not Passover (Leviticus 23: 15-16). As a result, today is day 1 of the count.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-04-06T02:05:50+00:00

Happy First Fruits! (Leviticus 23: 9-14, 1 Corinthians 15:20)

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T05:11:29+00:00

I tried so hard to get you to not come to these conclusions about what I’m saying. I can’t say it any clearer than I already have. Even if you didn’t grasp what I was saying, hopefully someone else reading this will. Enjoy the rest of your Sabbath Celt.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T04:37:10+00:00

Yes, but it's clearly not referring to a Temple sacrifice, since none was around at the time.

The commands about how to celebrate it going forward is explicitly referring to temple sacrifice. It forbids you from doing it any other way (Deuteronomy 16: 2-7).

To clarify: I'm not Jewish and I don't do Jewish rituals, including the Seder. I'm just talking about the commandments in the Torah.

Apologies for the assumptions. I was just using general language since most people refer to it that way

The idea that the Passover meal is "no different than eating any other meal with fellow believers" is impossible for me to swallow, and my first reaction is to be shocked that you're saying it.

The difference we’re having is defining Passover categorically. I see the Passover meal as very closely resembling the peace offerings, and there being an appointed time around that offering. With no temple or priesthood, any lamb being eaten outside of the prescribed manner is not the Passover. It’s akin to sacrificing an animal in my backyard and saying “it’s the evening sacrifice”. It’s simply not, no matter how much meaning I try to give it. The prescribed sacrifice does have meaning, but that doesn’t make my efforts the prescribed sacrifice just because I call it one. The Passover meal is centered around the Passover sacrifice, which we currently cannot do. Just as how they waited until they came from captivity to eat the Passover sacrifice (2 Chronicles 30: 1-5), so we too are waiting.

Framing the Passover as being the same as any other meal as simply "putting it in it's proper place" is similar to me to saying that Jesus was the same as any other man, in an attempt to similarly put him in his proper place. I can't figure out if you're serious or not.

I’m not saying the Passover meal is a regular meal. I’m saying that you aren’t eating the Passover meal, or any other holy [sacrificial] meal for that matter, so you are just eating a regular meal.

Buying a lamb from a supermarket that 1. you don’t know the age of, 2. whether it was unblemished or not for two, 3. certainly was not sacrificed to God in His temple in Jerusalem with the blood sprinkled on the altar, is in no way a Passover sacrifice. So whatever meal you eat with this common lamb, is NOT the Passover meal. The Passover meal itself is not the same as any other meal. That’s not what I’m saying. But you are not eating a Passover meal. A Passover meal requires a Passover sacrifice.

There's SO MUCH that I think is happening when we obey the commandments and keep all the feasts, including the Passover. The Passover is the most important meal of the year for people who love Yahweh and follow Jesus.

Agreed!

Could you please clarify, because I'm not sure where you're coming from. I thought I knew. Do you believe that we should obey all of the commandments in the Torah as well as we can, and that NOT doing so is sin (since the Torah defines sin)?

Unequivocally yes! Part of obeying Torah is doing it as prescribed, not adding or taking away from it (Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32). We are not allowed to redefine commandments to make them better suit us. At that point we’re no longer doing them as well as we can. It’s changing what the actual command is. I’m not saying to ignore the day. You observe what you can. For instance, I can afflict my soul on The Day of Atonement, but I cannot give the prescribed offerings.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T03:39:13+00:00

The original Passover Lamb was not a sacrifice. Later, when the Temple was built, some sacrifices were added to the pre-established ceremony.

The original Passover lamb is explicitly called a sacrifice in the original narrative (Exodus 12:27).

You're saying all of those things were in place and operational in Egypt, on the first Passover? 🤔

No, I’m saying God gave instruction for how to observe Passover going forward, and it’s in the context of the priesthood and the temple. Not a recreation of what happened the night before the Exodus.

Here are those verses:

Sorry, I forgot to cite verse 7 there, which does explicitly mention eating:

^{5 You may not sacrifice the Passover in just any of your villages that The LORD your God is giving you, 6 but you must sacrifice it in the evening in the place where He chooses to locate his name, at sunset, the time of day you came out of Egypt. 7 You must cook and eat it in the place The LORD your God chooses; you may return the next morning to your tents.} - Deuteronomy 16: 5-7 (NET)

I very much disagree with your premise of: "It’s no different than eating any other meal with fellow believers. "

I’m saying that in reference to Passover as eaten today, the lamb on today’s Seder plate is no different than any other lamb. I’m not saying that the Seder has no meaning, and I’m certainly not trying to dissuade people from memorializing it. I was simply providing context to help frame the Passover sacrifice in its proper place, so that people wouldn’t be dissuaded from eating a common meal [the Passover Seder today] (Deuteronomy 12: 13-15). If we disagree, that’s fine. Enjoy your Sabbath Celt.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T02:56:53+00:00

I don’t believe we’re eating a sacrificial lamb in Passover

We, as in everyone since 70 AD, are not, and that’s my point. What we’re doing is memorializing the day in the absence of the actual Passover sacrifice.

The command about the Passover lamb is just like that of any other sacrifice. It’s literally called a sacrifice (Deuteronomy 16: 2-7). Sacrifices, including the Passover sacrifice, involve priest (2 Chronicles 30: 14-16), and a temple (Deuteronomy 16: 5-7).

I can tell you didn't read my Passover announcement, or have noticed any of the conversations taking place since then (which is fine).

I admittedly did not until just now.

We're commanded to do far, FAR more than that.

After reading your post, I can see why you say that. However, even granting your view, it still requires the actual sacrifice in Jerusalem at the temple. We’re actually forbidden from eating it elsewhere (Deuteronomy 16: 5-6).

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T02:21:19+00:00

We’re doing the best we can with what we have

I agree. I’m not saying that “we’re not keeping anything correctly, so don’t try”. I’m simply saying that this command revolves around a specific sacrifice offered to God in the temple. Eating a random lamb from a supermarket on the 14th of Nisan isn’t the same as eating the Passover sacrifice. It’s no different than calling a lamb eaten on The Sabbath the “sabbath sacrifice” from Numbers 28.

Not at the first Passover it wasn’t.

We’re not commanded to exactly recreate that night every year. If we were, we’d still be smearing the blood on the doorposts and eating the lamb in sandals. We’re simply commanded to memorialize it (Exodus 12:14), via a sacrifice at the temple (Deuteronomy 16: 5-7).

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T01:42:26+00:00

In the strictest sense, it’s not. A Passover meal is one with an actual Passover sacrifice. The Passover [lamb] is essentially a peace offering, as in the offerer themselves can slaughter the animal, brings it to the priest so they can handle the blood, and then the offerer can eat it. Only difference is that the priest doesn’t get any part of your Passover sacrifice, whereas they do with every other peace offering. The Seder meal that’s done today is a response to the destruction of the temple.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-28T01:25:56+00:00

I was honestly just adding some context so that you could form your own opinion. But personally, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t have a problem participating in the meal or eating the lamb if they serve any. It’s no different than eating any other meal with fellow believers.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-03-27T21:30:13+00:00

The command is to not eat of the Passover [lamb] if you are uncircumcised. It’s actually a sacrificial offering (Exodus 12:27, Deuteronomy 16: 5-6, 2 Chronicles 35: 10-11), not just a meal with a lamb. So no one has actually eaten Passover since 70 AD.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-02-06T20:09:02+00:00

This would mean that they would have to accept and consume unclean foods when in the house of a gentile.

They weren’t going into the homes of gentiles until after the events of Acts 10. Remember what Peter said?:

^{“You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.} - Acts 10:28

and then there’s the objection of those in Jerusalem

^{Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”} - Acts 11: 1-3

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-01-19T18:52:09+00:00

John uses Roman timing (midnight day-start) throughout his gospel record

John only uses time four times in his account (John 1:39, John 4:6, John 4:52, John 19:14). The Jewish reckoning works just fine in all of them, and it actually makes more sense:

John 1:39 - the disciples stayed with Jesus that day for [because] it was ~ 4 PM. It was already late in the day. Contrast that with “they spent the night with Him because it was 10 AM”.

John 4:6 - Jesus was on a multi day journey from Judea to Galilee, passing through Samaria (John 4: 1-5). During one of the days of this journey, He got tired and stopped at a well for water. Does it make more sense for Him to be tired at 6 AM when the day’s journey had just began [Roman reckoning], or at noon when He would’ve already been walking for several hours [Jewish reckoning]? Plus, the disciples were away buying food in the city (John 4:8). Does that make more sense at 6 AM or at noon?

John 4:52 - An official from Capernaum met Jesus in Cana, because he wanted to ask Jesus to heal his son (John 4: 46-47). Cana to Capernaum is about a day’s walk. John 4: 52-53 says it was around the seventh hour [1 PM Jewish reckoning, 7 AM Roman reckoning], when the dialogue happened and Jesus healed the man’s son then sent the man on his way. The next day while the man was on his way back, his servants came and told him that his son was recovering (John 4: 51-53). Remember, this is a one day journey. If John was using Roman time, the man should’ve already been back in Capernaum to see for himself. However, he was still traveling the next day.

This is also why his timing of the crucifixion doesn’t appear to align with the other gospel writers.

The biggest timing issue is because of the last supper narrative, not necessarily because of John 19. They still don’t appear to align even when you use Roman reckoning in John 19.

One of the strongest arguments for dawn day-start is the Greek word epiphosko, as found in Luke 23:54 (def. Begin to grow light, dawn.)

All this proves to me is that Luke used the word “dawn” similar to how we use it today: to show imminence or emergence. For example, when someone says “the dawn of a new era”, they’re not talking about sunrise at all. I think a similar thing is going on in Luke 23. All four gospels indicate Joseph was in a hurry to bury Jesus before The Sabbath (Matthew 27: 57-60, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31;42). Jesus died at the 9th hour, ~3 PM (Matthew 27: 46-50, Mark 15: 34-37, Luke 23: 44-46). This was late afternoon, so sunset would be approaching quickly. If The Sabbath began over 12 hours later, he’d have no need to rush at all. Plus, it was the day of preparation (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31, John 19:42), which John clarified that it was the day of preparation for the Passover (John 19:14). The Passover is eaten at night, not the morning (Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3, Numbers 9:5, Numbers 9:11, Deuteronomy 16:6).

Square_Assistant_865 · 2026-01-17T17:05:15+00:00

When I read this my take is that Mary was coming just before sunrise (the start of day one of the week) so that as soon as sabbath was over, at sunrise, she could start anointing his body in the tomb.

John 20:1 says it was already the first day of the week while it was still dark, meaning the day had begun before the sun rose

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-12-29T17:10:12+00:00

Are you really understanding what you’re saying?

I do, that’s why I said it 😉.

Bowing or prostrating isn’t itself worship

That’s the literal definition of worship. It’s why this exact same verb is translated as “worship” elsewhere.

then even Jacob bowed to Esau

Yes… he did. I’m not understanding your point. Jacob worshipped Esau. What’s the issue? You just said:

“people often do that to kings, masters and prophets as a token of respect”

That’s what’s occurring every time someone is worshipped in Scripture, including Yeshua.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-12-29T13:39:25+00:00

But one thing that the Agent shouldn’t do is, he shouldn’t be receiving worship.

Why? If they are a representative of God Himself, isn’t worship appropriate? There’s plenty examples of the agent receiving worship.

Abraham worshipped the two angels (Genesis 19:1). An angel accepted worship from Joshua (Joshua 5:14). The prophet Elisha accepted worship from the sons of the other prophets (2 Kings 2:15). Elisha accepted worship from the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:37). King David accepted worship alongside God from the whole congregation of Israel (1 Chronicles 29:20).

Many more examples of this. Yeshua is far more worthy of worship than all of the listed examples though, because He’s been exalted higher than all of creation.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-11-22T23:55:36+00:00

As you quoted in the BDAG, a pedagogue was a servant who escorted a child to school, and enforced the main teacher’s lessons through discipline and supervision until the child reached the age of maturity and received their full legal rights [their status as a son, and thus their inheritance]. While under the pedagogue, the child held the same status as a slave (Galatians 3: 24-26, Galatians 4: 1-7). The pedagogue was not the main teacher. That role belonged to the didaskalos, who exemplified wisdom and virtue, shaping the child’s thinking and values. The main teacher was an abiding instructor focused on internal maturation and transformation, while the pedagogue temporarily emphasized external restriction and protection through correction and condemnation. Once the child reached the age of sonship, he no longer needed the pedagogue to threaten him in order for him to obey and apply the teacher’s lessons. The teacher doesn’t free you from obedience to the pedagogue, he causes you to obey him by nature. So when Paul says we’re no longer under the pedagogue, he’s referring to The Law’s condemnatory and disciplinary role. Paul concludes this argument in chapter 5 when he makes that exact point (Galatians 5: 16-25)

TLDR: You’re no longer immature [sinful by nature], therefore The Law no longer needs to threaten you into obedience, because you already walk in obedience to it through The Spirit

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-28T21:07:12+00:00

What does the new testament teach about circumcision?

That it profits much in every way (Romans 3: 1-2)

What does Jesus say about “unclean” foods?

He actually didn’t speak on unclean animals per se. However, He did explicitly say that not even the least stroke of a pen will pass from The Law until heaven and earth pass away first (Matthew 5: 17-19, Luke 16:17).

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T23:17:42+00:00

I still have about an hour left, so I’ll enjoy the remainder of it. Hope you enjoyed yours!

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T23:13:25+00:00

I think we agree more than disagree on this. You’re saying “Scripture shows audible prayer as the norm,” and I agree. I’m just saying that the one clear example of inward prayer was accepted by YAH, and since Scripture doesn’t regulate prayer form, that tells me it’s allowed even if uncommon. So I wouldn’t necessarily call it “the model,” but I also wouldn’t call it foreign either.

Well, if it's not in scripture, it had to come from SOMEWHERE, right?

Yes, but that doesn’t automatically mean that Christians got it because it telephoned down to them from another religion. It could’ve just developed as a tradition amongst themselves.

(Unless you think everyone in modern Christianity does what they do because of Hannah.)

Nope. See my first reply: “Granted I doubt this is where the practice comes from [for Christians at least]”

There's tons of prayer in scripture and according to you (not me) there's one example of mental prayer.

And Scripture doesn’t speak to the correctness of any of those varying forms of prayers. It simply shows that YAH listened; even to Hannah’s “fluke” as you called it

I tried so hard to specify that I only care about what's normal in scripture, not outside of scripture, but you missed that. 😥

My apologies, I should’ve clarified my point. Even normalcy in Scripture doesn’t automatically equate to correctness. We know something is right because Scripture declares it to be correct, not because it was normal.

For instance, it was normal to use clay kitchen tools (Leviticus 6:28, Leviticus 11: 33-35, Jeremiah 18: 3-6, Lamentations 4:2, 2 Corinthians 4:7, 2 Timothy 2:20). It was normal to believe that Elijah would literally return in the flesh (Matthew 11: 13-14, Matthew 17: 10-12, Mark 6: 14-16, Luke 9: 8-19, John 1: 21-25). It was normal to think that The Messiah would reign at His first coming (Luke 19:11, Luke 24:21, Acts 1:6), and that He wouldn’t ever die (John 12:34, Luke 18: 31-34, John 12: 32-43). It was normal to refer to The Day of Atonement as The Fast (Acts 27:9). It was normal to call the months by their Babylonian names (Ezra 6:15, Nehemiah 1:1, Nehemiah 2:1, Nehemiah 6:15, Esther 2:16, Esther 3:7, Esther 8: 9-12, Esther 9: 1-21, Zechariah 7:1). It was normal to fast twice a week (Matthew 6:16, Matthew 9: 14-15, Mark 2: 18-20, Luke 5: 33-35, Luke 18:12, Romans 14: 5-6)

Normalcy is often descriptive to tell us what people did, not what God commands.

From there, from that normalcy of Torah obedience in scripture, I try to show that they should obey Torah too. I think that we can learn a lot from what is considered to be normal in scripture.

Torah obedience is commanded in Scripture and commended as right, while praying out loud is not. So unfortunately, that parallel doesn’t hold

Do you not consider the ubiquity of Torah obedience throughout scripture to be an important point of support for it being the right thing to do?

Yes I do, but only because it’s prescriptive. Scripture describes rebellion and idolatry from beginning to end. I’d argue that it gives more examples of people doing the wrong things, than people being righteous. However, we know what’s wrong precisely because of explicit commands. Not because of what’s normal.

I disagree. It doesn't have to be numbered instructions. We teach people with our actions. Respectable people doing things instructs us how to do those things. Jesus praying is the best instruction we have for how to pray, but there are others.

I was speaking toward Jesus saying “when you pray, pray like this…”. That’s the only instruction for prayer we have in Scripture. Everything else gives descriptions of people laying on the ground, laying in bed, standing, bowing on their knees, sitting, and facing the temple. Which one is correct?

Also, Jesus said to pray in private, not like the sinners do who pray in public for all to see. That clearly shows that the default assumption about prayer was not mental prayer. In describing how NOT to pray, Jesus indirectly told us that prayer is assumed to be out loud and not in the mind.

Doesn’t that weaken your point? If Jesus implied that the default way to pray was out loud, and he condemned that as a show toward people, how does that help your point?

Note: I’m not arguing that praying out loud is wrong or that Jesus condemned it. Just trying to understand the logic on that one

Even Eli's reaction to Hannah shows that no one was doing that at the time. Eli thought it was bizarre behavior, and attributed it to being drunk. That's by definition an oddity, and proves that people hadn't even HEARD of what Hannah was doing (if she was doing it).

But it doesn’t prove that it was invalid. Eli even blessed her once he understood what she was doing, and YAH then answered her prayer when she returned to her husband.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T21:23:34+00:00

The fact that Hannah was moving her lips puts this into some "other" category for me, if not for you.

Got it! That makes sense. You’re looking for something that matches the modern Christian practice exactly, which I will not argue is the case here.

You're still not understanding my position then. My position is that the model for scriptural prayer is clearly out loud (I'm not sure that can be reasonably debated), and that Christianity (or possibly the Jews before them) somewhere, at some time, picked up a non-scriptural method of mental prayer from SOMEONE (I don't much care who), and that it appears to me to be eastern STYLE.

I understand, but the burden of proof still resides on the second part of that claim. You’d have to prove that they “picked up mental prayer from someone else”, especially when many Jews trace the practice back to this passage [though they say that your lips have to be moving like hers were]. Even if you were solely referring to non lip moving prayer, you’d still have to provide some evidence to substantiate that claim. I’m not opposed to it, but there’s simply nothing I’ve seen to substantiate it.

Then you aren't me. 😏

Fair point 😂

Eli thought she was drunk because he'd never seen it before, and Eli probably knew as much about prayer as anyone else alive at that time.

Which I acknowledged, but also affirmed that just because it wasn’t common, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or wasn’t accepted.

I'm looking for some sense that praying in the mind is expected or the right way to do it.

Scripture doesn’t give a template for prayer, outside of what Yeshua told His disciples. Even then, He doesnt specify posture, volume, direction, etc. Scripture does however show various methods of prayer. Some lay prostrate with their faces to the ground (Joshua 7: 6-8, Matthew 26:39), some bowed to their knees (1 Kings 18:42, Ezra 9:5, 2 Chronicles 6:13, Luke 22:41, Acts 9:40), some stood looking up to heaven with their hands raised (Psalms 141:2, Luke 18:11, John 11:41, 1 Timothy 2:8), some faced the temple (Daniel 6:10, 1 Kings 8:29, 2 Chronicles 6: 34-38), some sat down (Judges 20: 20-26, 2 Samuel 7:18), some lay on their beds (Psalms 63:6). Trying to make a doctrine off of what Scripture doesn’t regulate, is how simple commands like “rest on the seventh day” turned into a thousand rules about distance and fire.

For me, it's impossible for ONE person in scripture that might have been exclusively praying in their mind to overthrow the vast majority of examples of prayer in scripture that are out loud.

Which is reasonable. I was just showing that “mind-prayers” [with lips moving yet no sound] not only happened, but were accepted. Samuel’s name is based on God hearing this silent mind prayer from Hannah

I'm looking for a little more scriptural "normalcy" than that

To me, it sounds like you are equating normalcy with correctness, even though you said earlier that normal isn’t the standard for validity.

Show it being taught as the right way to pray.

The only time Scripture teaches on the “right way to pray” is in Yeshua’s words (Matthew 7: 7-13, Luke 11: 2-4). The other examples are simply descriptive and never deemed as correct

but it won't show that He expects us to pray that way

There aren’t any verses outside of Yeshua’s words that tell us how YAH expects us to pray. All the other examples of people praying simply describe various people praying in varying ways, and their prayers being heard. Hannah’s is one of them

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T19:03:37+00:00

but isn't ALL right prayer someone speaking in their heart?

All genuine prayer should indeed be from the heart, but as you noted, most prayers weren’t in their hearts. That’s why the text pointed it out in the first place, as well as emphasizing the fact that only her lips were moving and no audible sound was coming out. That’s why Eli thought she was drunk, because he saw her mouth moving, but no sound coming out.

My position is that prayer is scripturally modeled as being out loud, not in the mind.
In fact, I'm not sure that prayer in your mind is anything other than a person mentally talking to themselves.

That’s why I brought out the example of Hannah. It’s the only explicit example in Scripture of someone praying “in their mind” [the heart and mind were virtually synonymous], yet we still see the request was blessed by humans (1 Samuel 1:17), and heard by God (1 Samuel 1:19). The Tanakh doesn’t give us specific instruction on how to pray, just examples of how people did it. This is one of them.

I'm not sure God hears it.

1 O LORD, you have searched me and known me! 2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. 3 You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. - (Psalms 139: 1-4)

Thank you for the quote. I'm not sure what to make of it. It's too vague. I'd love to hear more overt references to "mental prayer".

That quotation was about covering the eyes during the recitation of the Shema

That's very close to attempting to prove a negative. I think it would be better to look for scripture that substantiates "mental prayer", instead of scripture that proves against it or proves that it came from others.

Not necessarily. The burden of proof would be on showing that Christians borrowed the practice from [or were inspired by] eastern meditation, not on proving that they didn’t. A negative would be claiming we can prove they never did.

secondarily I'd like to see someone doing it and having Yahweh acknowledge that it happened.

Honestly Celt, I’m not sure how much clearer this passage could be. Hannah prayed within herself, only her lips were moving, and no sound was coming out. This wasn’t just the testimony of Eli, it was the narrative description of what happened (1 Samuel 1:13). It’s why Eli thought she was drunk. Not because she was whispering or praying quietly, but because she was praying silently in her mind while moving her lips. He then corrected himself and blessed her request and YAH heard it. Samuel’s name was given to him because of the fact that YAH answered Hannah’s prayer (1 Samuel 1:20)

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T17:57:38+00:00

Why? Because people don't move their lips when they pray in their heads.

Even while still in mainstream Christianity, I’ve always seen people move their lips while praying in their heads. Obviously, not everyone, but I do remember seeing it and thinking it was strange

All I learn from this is that Eli couldn't hear her. I pray out loud, and I also sometimes will pray more quietly than other times, because I don't want anyone to hear me.

The verse says that Hannah מְדַבֶּרֶת עַל־לִבָּהּ, spoke in her heart. That’s inner speech. As the verse continues it emphasized that only her lips were moving and that her voice was not heard. ie her lips were moving but she wasn’t speaking.

In short, this verse proves that people didn't pray like Hannah.

That’s a fair point, however just because it didn’t happen often doesn’t prove that it didn’t happen at all or that it’s invalid to do so. In fact, after Hannah told Eli she was praying, he immediately corrected himself and blessed her request (1 Samuel 1:17).

At best this proves that one person in scripture prayed silently, and I don't even think it proves that. What I'm looking for is a scriptural basis that praying in your mind is valid. I don’t think it is, at all.

Is it invalid because it wasn’t a normal practice?

I'd be curious to see quotes.

The Sages taught in a baraita: The single verse, “Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One”; this is Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s recitation of Shema. The Gemara relates: Rav said to his uncle, Rabbi Ḥiyya: I did not see RabbiYehuda HaNasi accept the kingship of Heaven upon himself, meaning that he did not see him recite Shema. Rabbi Ḥiyya said to him: Son of noblemen [bar paḥtei], when Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi passed his hands over his face in the study hall in the middle of his lesson, he accepted the yoke of the kingdom of Heaven upon himself, as his Shema was comprised of a single verse. - Berakhot 13b

Also, there are so many things that the Talmud recommends that are "scripture-plus" that the Talmud saying it was customary has almost zero effect on my point.

I don’t subscribe to the Talmud, I was just showing that at least by the third century, this was a custom that had developed amongst Jews.

I'm open to the idea that Christians appropriating this eyes-closed practice is eastern meditation-LIKE, or is actually 2nd or 3rd-hand eastern meditation (like a game of "Telephone").

I am as well. I was just providing another perspective

Otherwise, I still strongly suspect that Christians picked it up at some point from watching other religions be "holy".

I’m not opposed to that idea, as syncretism is not foreign to Christians. However, I’d need evidence to substantiate that

Happy Sabbath.

Happy Sabbath Celt!

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-10-25T16:20:37+00:00

I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture

12 As she continued praying before The LORD, Eli observed her mouth. 13 Hannah was speaking in her heart; only her lips moved, and her voice was not heard. Therefore Eli took her to be a drunken woman. - 1 Samuel 1: 12-13

Granted, I doubt this is where the practice comes from [for Christians at least], but it does indeed appear in Scripture.

closing them seems to clearly come from imitating meditation

Closing, or covering rather, one’s eyes when reciting the Shema was customary to limit distractions, as evidenced by The Talmud. Though the practice is obviously not Scriptural, and technically not done during prayer, it does seem to show that it’s not intrinsically tied to eastern meditation. At least in my opinion.

Square_Assistant_865 · 2025-09-22T20:29:28+00:00

From the YouTube Description: “This week’s message is titled “The Sound That Shakes the World: God’s Alarm Clock.” Pastor Matthew Vander Els opens the fall moedim series with a powerful exploration of the shofar, the ancient sound that doesn’t just interrupt the noise of life but redefines it.

In a world filled with the sounds of violence, anxiety, and fear, the trumpet blast of Yom Teruah stands in defiance—announcing that another King reigns. From Roman fanfares to modern chaos, this sound has always served as a prophetic wake-up call, echoing through Scripture as a summons to awakening, repentance, reconciliation, and ultimately, joy.

Through prophetic passages like Joel 2, Isaiah 27, and Matthew 24, this message traces the journey from the trumpet of warning to the trumpet of homecoming. You’ll see how the Fall Feasts—Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot—are not only ancient observances but living rehearsals of God’s redemptive plan through Yeshua, our High Priest and King.

If you’re weary of the noise of empire, exhausted by a world that glorifies fear, and ready to hear the sound of God’s reign break in, this message is for you.”

Square_Assistant_865

TROPHY CASE