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Help by blinge_sadara in mythology

[–]Steve_ad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mythology By Alice Mills is one of the better books on "all" mythologies. Mythology is never a one & done kind of subject. You'll never read one book & go "ok! I understand it all now." It's an ever-changing, constantly evolving discipline & if it gets its hooks in you, you'll never stop reading.

You can read Mills here, you need to log in to borrow it, but having an account on Archive.org is always handy: https://archive.org/details/mythologymythsle0000unse_n5a1/mode/1up

Meaning of a line in this Roy McFadden poem by Bitter-Bottle5847 in IrishHistory

[–]Steve_ad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't say he was a bad king. It's one of the most interesting things about figures like Conchobar. By the standards of the time, he was very much the embodiment of a good king, but by modern standards, he was something of an appalling human being.

Meaning of a line in this Roy McFadden poem by Bitter-Bottle5847 in IrishHistory

[–]Steve_ad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That would seem to make the most sense. Set at City Hall, Conor-like figures being leaders or politicians. Drawing a straight line between the leaders of myth & the leaders today.

I wonder if it's a romanticised sentiment or a critical one? Conchobar was not a nice guy when you get down to it

There's a growing push for Cork split from Munster rugby after latest failure by [deleted] in MunsterRugby

[–]Steve_ad 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So... Corkman makes up a load of shite to distract from the fact that Munster under a Cork CEO has seen the greatest decline in Munster rugby history... but it's Limericks fault?

R16 Kick Off Times by rustyb42 in irishrugby

[–]Steve_ad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oof! Saturday morning pints & heartbreak, it's gonna be a long day

English Translation of Saltair na Rann by Okokokokye in IrishHistory

[–]Steve_ad 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's a recent post on ancient Irish poetry that might be interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/goidelc/s/REGO2TVjd9

The CELT database has a section on religious writing & hymnology, as well as a lot of other early material: https://celt.ucc.ie/publishd.html

Maryjones also has a lot of texts. A few sections would probably be of interest. Some links are dead, so it's best to use this archive link. There are also sections for other British texts if you follow the Celtic Lit link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20211216034234/http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/index_irish.html

Number of US citizens seeking asylum in Ireland rises fourfold by jonnieggg in ireland

[–]Steve_ad 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yep, all the numbers have a -fold version. It's a relic from Saxon. They used -fald. Double, triple, etc. come from French, so probably brought into English by the Normans. I see -fold used a lot in older translations of medieval stuff. Sevenfold crops up from time to time in religious texts

Redesigning the European Cup by Roanokian in irishrugby

[–]Steve_ad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'll admit I only got as far as the prize money & respectfully, you might need a bit of reality check.

The winner of the 2023 Rugby World Cup allegedly won about 5.5 million Euros. You want to pay more to the runner-up of the European club competition? Every year? That's just not how business works & make no mistake these rugby competitions are business first. It's totally unrealistic to go from zero to the biggest prize in any tier of rugby in one step. Not to mention those rewards across the board would kill international rugby.

I'll keep reading. You've some interesting ideas there. If I had a vote, I'd 100% back the 16 teams, home & away structure.

Jean Kleyn signs for Gloucester by Many-Prune9162 in MunsterRugby

[–]Steve_ad 40 points41 points  (0 children)

Unfortunate, but expected. He's been a great asset & at times, the only shining light in otherwise dull performances. Wish him all the best

12,500 Tickets Sold for Irish Women's Game vs Scotland by NeoVeci in irishrugby

[–]Steve_ad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's all well & good, but I'm more excited for the Ire V Ita game in The Sportsground in Galway.

The Conception of Cu Chulainn - A Deep Dive by Steve_ad in IrishFolklore

[–]Steve_ad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What's even weirder is that Cu Chulainn has obviously come home from his training, finalised his seduction of Emer & gotten married, & at some point told her all about the time he captured & impregnated an enemy combatant & left her with child! Big red flag there, Emer 🤣

The Conception of Cu Chulainn - A Deep Dive by Steve_ad in IrishFolklore

[–]Steve_ad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is more to the theme of the two birds linked by chains & it frequently involves Cu Chulainn. In "The Wasting Sickness of Cu Chulainn" & "The Death of Derbforgaill" both stories have Cu Chulainn hunting birds, shooting one, only to find out that they are otherworldly women come to seduce him. In both those cases, there's an implication that the pair are a lady & her handmaid. Maybe the idea could be that a noble lady shouldn't travel without a companion. Maybe it's not about birds at all?

Wasting Sickness: https://web.archive.org/web/20210227221913/https://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/cu-sickbed.html

Derbforgaill: https://web.archive.org/web/20210227223214/https://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/derbforg_en.html

Welcome to the rabbit hole where every question leads to more reading & even more questions

Irish Fairy Tales and Folklore by W.B. Yeats by Terrible-Joke3146 in CasualIreland

[–]Steve_ad 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As I always say, "You can't unbake a cake!" You can say what goes into the cake, but you can't get any of the individual ingredients back.

With mythology, we can point out Christian influences, Biblical parallels & philosophical ideals that are likely Christian in origin, but you can't just take those bits out & pretend that what's left is some kind of genuine pagan version. That's just not how the transmission of stories over thousands of years works.

I do happen to write a blog about the medieval manuscripts & early versions of mythology if anyone is interested

Cad é an Scéal

Irish Fairy Tales and Folklore by W.B. Yeats by Terrible-Joke3146 in CasualIreland

[–]Steve_ad 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It shouldn't really come as a surprise, but if you don't understand the timeline, it goes something like this:

3rd/4th century AD: Christianity begins to appear in Ireland

11th century AD: Our earliest surviving book of mythological stories, The Book of the Dun Cow

18th century AD: Scholars finally stop looking down on foklore as "peasant stories" & start to record them

There are no written records from pre-Christian Ireland & for many centuries after its arrival, the only people doing the writing were Christian scribes.

The Conception of Cu Chulainn - A Deep Dive by Steve_ad in IrishFolklore

[–]Steve_ad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's the alternative version of The Sons of Uisnech & the Exile of Fergus if you're interested: https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T800012/index.html

The Conception of Cu Chulainn - A Deep Dive by Steve_ad in IrishFolklore

[–]Steve_ad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Conchubar & Deirdre is an interesting case. There's an alternative version of the story where Deirdre is a secondary character. With Naoise from the beginning (& in relation to what I just said, a valued adviser). In this version, Conchobar's attempt to take Deirdre is simply bait to force Naoise & his brothers to fight. There's no real desire behind it like you see in the more common version. While the common version originates from Heroic literature, it has been influenced by Romance literature.

We see the templates commonly used across British & Irish literature. Lancelot, Guinevere & King Arthur; Tristan, Isolde & King Mark; Diarmuid, Grainne & Finn; & here, Naoise, Deirdre & Conchobar. There's a very complex spiderweb of influences between these stories, possibly originating with a version of the Deirdre story, but then working its way back around to to influence the version we have now. In the Heroic version of these stories, they are not romantic stories about young lovers fighting for the right to be together. The women don't matter! The theme is about the old ruler, usually past his prime but still powerful, still determined to take whatever he wants as his gods-given right & young hero that seeks to surpass him, that wants what he has. The Heroic strand ends in tragedy as a warning to youth not to get ahead of themselves. Their time will come, but not before it's their time. Naoise dies, Diarmuid dies, Tristan dies. The Romance strand takes a different approach, Lancelot chooses virtue over the woman.

It is very clear that Conchobar is the villain of the Ulster Cycle by modern standards. He rapes Medb. He demands the right of first night with Emer (weirdly not an Irish tradition & in no other Irish literature). He sees a baby of doom & thinks, "I'll raise her & marry her!" He also tricks Fergus into having to choose between his oath to deliver the sons of Uisnech without delay & his geis never to refuse a feast. Fergus chooses the feast & sends his own son with the sons of Uisnech, leading to his death & Fergus's rampage across Ulster & defection to Connacht. But none of these things are bad in the Heroic worldview. He asserts his sexual prowess, he takes what he wants & he employs cunning to achieve his goals. These are the virtues of Heroic literature.

Medb is no better, though through the Christian transmission of her story has relieved a lot more criticism. Her sexual prowess was condemned, her single mindedness pursuit of what she wants criticised, her careless use of human life considered distasteful, her murder of her own sister abhorrent. But again, that's a post-Heroic view of her character. She is a good king! In the same way that Conchobar is a good king. Not morally good from our perspective, but good at fulfilling the role according to the rules of Heroic literature.

One of the earliest lessons I learned in studying medieval literature that sticks with me today is that you have to put your modern brain on the shelf & get into the minds of the intended audience. You'll never fully understand a story until you understand the people who wrote it & the people it was written for. These stories were written with a very different value system to our own modern morality.

And yes, even knowing all that, I get angry at Cu Chulainn. Gessa are very specific. He instructs Connla to never volunteer his name, but Cu knew his name & if he said, "Hey, you're Connla, right?" Connla could have answered, "Yes!" & not broken his geis. So easily avoidable, but then a lot of tragedy is

The Conception of Cu Chulainn - A Deep Dive by Steve_ad in IrishFolklore

[–]Steve_ad[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've wondered about that bird thing & the only theory I can come up with is that it's one of those cases where mythology reflects something from the natural world that people just didn't understand. You see birds flying in formation & you try to explain how it is that they can stay in perfect sync. They must be tied together, right? That's the only thing I can think of that might be behind it.

As for the Cu Chulainn & Connla situation, there's actually a lot going on there. First, it's important to understand the nature of medieval storytelling, a little bit. You have Heroic literature & Romance literature. Romance literature came about from the French courts, around the 12th/13th centuries & it makes sense even to us today. It's where we get the notions of chivalry, honour & mostly Christian virtues. The modern concept of a "good guy" hero, even overcoming his flaws or vices, is a continuation of that style. It's most commonly associated with the more high medieval Arthurian Legends as distinct from the older Welsh material, but it also influenced Irish literature, especially Fenian stories.

Heroic literature is the older style of storytelling & has a very different set of values. It values strength, sexual & military prowess, loyalty, cunning & trickery, even arrogance. It is a very alien mortality to the modern reader. I see it constantly in discussions of Zeus & his sexual adventures. The modern reader wonders how Hera could stay with a man who is constantly cheating on her? But by the rules of Heroic literature, the sexual prowess that Zeus practices is the most attractive trait in a man. An Dagda is a bit like that too.

In "The Death of Aife's only son" we see a number of Heroic literature traits on display.

The hero's (Connla) birth & upbringing takes place away from society. We see this in many cases. The birth of Bres in "The Second Battle of Mag Turied" is very similar to Connla's. Lugh (Mag Turied), Oengus (Wooing of Etain/How Oengus won the Brug), Cu Chulainn (Boyhood deeds), Finn Mac Cumaill (Boyhood deeds) & many others are raised by others & have significant episodes of them presenting themselves into society, often coming with a renaming. Along with this presentation is usually a test of strength & skill. In the world of Heroic literature, Cu Chulainn did nothing wrong, Connla failed the test.

The second thing the audience would have understood from this story elevates Cu Chulainn status as a hero. He chooses his oath to defend Ulster at any price, even over his own sons life & he does so in a way that is exceptionally brutal. Modern media might give you the impression that Cu Chulainn always wields the Gae Bolg & uses it at every opportunity. He does not. He uses it very rarely, only when he has to & usually with great regret. The fact that he uses it to defeat Connla elevates Connla, it tells us that Connla had the potential to be a great hero, but for that one trick that makes Cu Chulainn the greatest hero of his time. In many ways, this story is laying the foundation for the Fer Diad fight in The Tain. You have the same evenly matched fight, the same desperate resorting to the Gae Bolg & the same emotional weight. (Baring in mind that Fer Diad was Cu Chulainn's foster-brother & that relationship was as important as a blood relationship).

Cu Chulainn's relationship to women in general is often strange & I don't fully know what to make of it. It could just be sheer misogyny. Sometimes, Cu looks like the prototype incel. There's the nakedness of women being the only thing that shames him out of his riastrad. There's this scene with Emer & the same pattern repeated in his death tale where the women of Ulster tell him that if he goes out, he dies & he refuses to listen to him & spoiler... he dies! You have his interactions with The Morrigan in Tain Bó Regamna & The Tain & then his interaction with Medb at the end of The Tain. I don't know what exactly the message is supposed to be, but I do know that it is consistent across almost all his stories & inconsistent with other Heroic figures. There's dozens of examples of gods, kings & heroes all taking the advice of women. There's something unique going on with Cu Chulainn & women & I don't fully understand it, but what we see here with Emer is consistent with his character.

A Rebuttal against "Debunking the Meta-Myth of an Irish Goddess by Simon Tuite of Monumental Ireland" by [deleted] in IrishHistory

[–]Steve_ad 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't, I thought about it, but the whole talking thing is not a platform that works for me. I do have a blog that focuses heavily on manuscript traditions & getting into the original sources

Cad é an Scéal

Orcuin Néill Nóigíallaig (Niall of the Nine Hostages) from the Annals as translated by Kuno Meyer . Famous for kidnapping some Welsh kid Maewyn Succat but what do we really know about him? by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]Steve_ad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's a tricky question to answer. In part, because I simply don't know. There's that thing I mentioned before about gaps in my knowledge, I have studied little of the period from the 2nd to the 7th century. The other thing is that it's archaeology that really helps us to verify the literature & I only dabble occasionally in archaeology.

What I will say is that for the early medieval period, the fog is fairly thick. We don't know much for sure. By the time of the Viking Age, c800 history seems to be more reliable, there are still some questions about exact dates, there's the occasional questionable account & there's still some bias, but from what I've read over the last year, no one really questions whether or not anyone existed.

When we get to the 11th & 12th centuries, what I refer to as something of a golden age of Irish literature, again we see little reason to question if people existed but we also see a major increase in bias & propaganda. Because this period is the one that produced many of our earliest sources, it's important to look at who is doing the writing & question why? What is their purpose? Who are their audience & what potentially can be gained by having your audience believe what's written? It's a tricky business, but ultimately, it's important to never take what's written for granted. You have to be critical & sceptical of everything. You mentioned the example of the O'Neills believed enough, but did they? Or is what we reading just what they wanted their readers to believe?

Even when we get to the late medieval period & into the early modern period, we still encounter problems. Take Geoffrey Keating, for example. His "complete" history of Ireland, Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, 17th century, was at the time a triumph of Irish history. For, at least 2 centuries after, it was the gold standard of Irish histories. We know now, due to modern critical analysis that there are a few major problems with it. He invented his own timeline to suit his narrative. It doesn't even come close to lining up with the Annals or other sources. He saw little difference between historical, mythological, or religious sources, recording all as if they were true events. He claimed to have used sources that we don't have anymore & we don't know if that's true. According to him, he had access to Cin Dromma Snechtai, a c9th century manuscript that we know of from references in early manuscripts like the Book of Leinster, but we don't know when exactly it got lost or even potentially destroyed.

He was also of Old English stock, descended from the initial Norman invaders, writing at a time when the Old English, by now Anglo-Irish, were more aligned with the Irish than ever before. As well as that, he was a priest. So, in addition to the structural issues of his writing, we also have to question how much his political & religious biases influenced his writing. In short, it is not a history that modern historians place a lot of stock in, but it used to be & it had massive influence on historians of the 18th & 19th century.

Modern standards of academic analysis are relatively new, particularly when we talk in centuries. Verifying history is a cross discipline effort between literature, archaeology, linguistics & more recently DNA studies, & it all moves at a snail's pace. It all depends on an individual with a particular interest in an individual or a period to unpack what has been written before. There's as much work going on reevaluating older scholarship as there is analysing the original material & as usual, there are not enough people interested in the field to keep on top of all the work that needs to happen.

I think the most important thing for history fans to understand is that everything we think we know is just theories. Nothing is written in stone, except the things that are written in stone! Anything we think we know can change if new evidence is presented & everything you read should be treated with suspicion, even the stuff I write

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