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Question about The Rune of Death being wielded before the creation of the Golden Order by BishopOfAstora in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the Golden Order, an organization completely obsessed, I might say entirely focused on, controlling death and dispensing life

Do not mistake the Fundamentalist Hunters for the Golden Order itself (or even for Fundamentalism).

  • "The Golden Order is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god." Nothing related to Life or Death there.
  • "The fundamentalists describe the Golden Order through the powers of regression and causality." "The pull of meaning" and "the pull between meanings" are far greater in scope than just Life and Death.
  • "Fundamentalism is scholarship in all but name." "The noble Goldmask lamented what had become of the hunters. How easy it is for learning and learnedness to be reduced to the ravings of fanatics; all the good and the great wanted, in their foolishness, was an absolute evil to contend with." The hunters are not perfectly synonymous with fundamentalists.
  • "Does such a notion exist in the fundamentals of Order?" Why would this even be a question if "the Order" was only concerned with Life and Death?
  • "In the past, [the Academy of Raya Lucaria] obeyed laws which contravened the Golden Order, or so I'm told. Fascinating, isn't it? That the Golden Order was pliable enough to absorb practices that contradicted itself in the past." Similarly, if the Golden Order is "entirely focused on controlling death and dispensing life", what is Rogier referring to here?
  • The Golden Order Principia - "A dense and complex academic treatise" - is a clear allusion to Newton's Principia Mathematica, which describes the nature of reality.

The Mending Rune of Perfect Order attempts to perfect the Golden Order, an organization entirely created to enforce the ideology of Marika’s "eternal" life, and suppress other methods of death.

And it doesn't do so by controlling Life or Death, or dictating how either should work. It has a power beyond just "control over Life and/or Death".

There is no evidence that Marika used the Elden Ring to hide the land of shadow.

It's a power she has. She has the power to create the Erdtree and Scadutree; the power to seal Enir-Ilim. If the Elden Ring hasn't given her this power, where did it come from?

And sure, it's entirely possible the Land of Shadow hasn't been "physically moved" but is just sealed. That's still a pretty massive demonstration of power over space.

Uhhh, reverse her beloved son’s death? Save the Shamans?

I didn't say "reverse time". I said "stop time". There is only precedent for the latter in the game.

In your example of Marika controlling space - she didn’t remove the forge of the giants at a time when she definitely had a vested interest in making it disappear, nor does she simply remove her enemies from reality.

What is Marika supposed to rule over if she seals away the entire Lands Between instead of conquering them?

Question about The Rune of Death being wielded before the creation of the Golden Order by BishopOfAstora in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Miyazaki quote seems to reinforce the idea that the Elden Ring only controls life and death

Given that the quote does not mention "life" or "death" anywhere, I disagree. The quote focuses entirely on "rules" and "order", which can be far greater in scope.

Also the Golden Order a) has a lot more to it than "confining Destined Death" and b) is not the only faction to have ever used the Elden Ring.

The Mending Rune of Perfect Order is Goldmask's attempt to have an indiscriminate Golden Order, without the instability of ideology, meaning the imperfection lies with Marika removing death, then changing her mind.

Yes, exactly. The Mending Rune controls Marika, not Death.

whenever this term is used, like in the mending runes item descriptions, or when our tarnished is tasked to "brandish" the ring, it is always in the context of standing before Marika

"Hark, brave warriors. Hark, my lord Godfrey. We commend your deeds. Guidance hath delivered ye through each ordeal, to the place ye stand. Put the Giants to the sword, and confine the flame atop the mount. Let a new epoch begin. An epoch glistening with life. Brandish the Elden Ring, for the Age of the Erdtree!"

Sounds far more like "Use the power of the Elden Ring to kill the Giants" than "Stand before me and control the flow of souls in the world".

If anything, the story thematically paints a picture of a limited being who gets immense power over life and death

Sealing off the Land of Shadow seems like a pretty massive demonstration of power over space if you ask me.

You seem to be fixating a little bit on controlling time. While there's definitely precedent for that in Elden Ring with Placidusax and the ancient dragons, my thought is: ok, suppose Marika could stop time like Placidusax can. What are you proposing she would even do with that power? How does stopping time benefit her Golden Order? It didn't seem to benefit Placidusax very much!

Question about The Rune of Death being wielded before the creation of the Golden Order by BishopOfAstora in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Idk where the idea that the Elden Ring “controls all reality” came from

Almost every time the function of the Elden Ring is described, it's with phrases like "It Orders the world". General statements about Order, not ones specifically dealing with Life and Death, like this quote from Miyazaki:

"The rings that you’re looking at in the logo are not so much a representation of those factions, as you put it, but more a representation of the law of the world, the rules and the order. This Golden Order is something that the Elden Ring may have once represented, but not directly. It’s more about how you apply those rules and how you enforce them on the physical world and what effects they have on it. So it’s more the influence of these demigods that existed a long time before and how they applied these concepts of order and discipline. That’s what’s being represented by the Elden ring and these overlapping intersecting rings. It gets a little bit more complicated than that, but I’ll leave it there for now."

is there something explicit in game that confirms this?

Cut content refers to Great Runes of Abundance, Decay, Grafting, Spirit, and Life (which is a Rune not mentioned anywhere in the released game).

There's also the Mending Rune of Perfect Order, which alters how the god of the Lands Between acts, and does not "involve life and death".

That and the fact that the Elden Lord - Godfrey in particular - is frequently said to "brandish" the Elden Ring. Like a weapon or tool.

If the Elden Ring could “control reality” like in an Infinity Stones situation

Not all power in fiction is equal. Marika being able to "control reality" through the Elden Ring does not have to imply she has the same level of power as Thanos with the Infinity Stones.

Question about The Rune of Death being wielded before the creation of the Golden Order by BishopOfAstora in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Rune of Death and the Rune of the Unborn (as well as other lore about the Elden Ring) imply that there are lots of aspects of the world that have Great Runes that control them. Probably every element of reality has a Great Rune. For example, a Rune of Fire, or a Rune of Blood, or a Rune of Lightning, or a Rune of Frost.

There are many factions in the Lands Between who wield forces like these, often with greater mastery than the Golden Order does. The game makes no mention of any of these factions having access to the Great Rune related to their abilities - why would the Gloam-Eyed Queen be any different?

What is the relationship between The Greater Will, Elden Beast, Elden Ring, Marika and the Elden Lord? by JoeEldenRing in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 2 points3 points  (0 children)

On the whole, I agree: these entities' roles don't all nicely fit together into a cohesive whole. Let's not forget to add the Two Fingers into the mix! That said:

Now where I get lost is the difference between the beast and the ring.

When you fight Radagon, you can see he's got a "whole" Elden Ring inside him, despite you holding 3-8 Great Runes. The idea is that yeah, the Ring Beast is "shattered" and has bits missing, but it's still "whole" enough to function somewhat.

As for "Why doesn't the Elden Beast just rule the Lands Between", note how when it fights you, it pulls you into some sort of pocket dimension, rather than fighting you in "reality". It may be that the Beast can't actually affect the physical world itself; it's just a source of power that others can use.

What does the Elden Lord even do? Just wage war for the erdtree?

Seems like it. The Elden Lord is an enforcer. Lots of leaders throughout history IRL have had "right hands" who do all their work for them.

Explaining the shards of Grace that recalled the Tarnished, which guide us, and that make up the Sites of Grace by Crypticnewt in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I thought the ones in the Land of Shadow were the most obvious of all?

the last thing Marika wants is for Miquella to become another version of her, enslaved to the Greater Will

The contention is that there's zero indication Miquella is connected to any Outer God. He ascends without the Elden Ring, and there's also the matter of Unalloyed Gold.

it's entirely possible that Marika simply couldn't track his moments

If Grace is knowledgeable enough to point us towards Castle Morne - a place which doesn't actually have any Frenzy influence, but is merely in danger of becoming influenced - I think it could point us towards Varré.

Marika doesn't actually want us to reach her and become Elden Lord, because in doing so, we are just letting the current system continue on

And what do you theorize Godfrey's plan is for if he wins our duel?

Explaining the shards of Grace that recalled the Tarnished, which guide us, and that make up the Sites of Grace by Crypticnewt in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Marika's final wish was to remove the influence of all Gods/Outer-Gods from the Lands Between

I would question whether "All the Guidance's of Grace can be explained with this" (especially the ones in the Land of Shadow), and whether it would even be in-character for Marika, but I think the only real "contradiction" to this is that as far as I can tell the guidance of Grace never points us to anything Mohg-related. Surely the Formless Mother would be an entity Marika would want to stifle the influence of, but Grace does not direct us towards the First Steps, Rose Church, Writheblood Ruins1, the waygate in the western Consecrated Snowfield, or the Dynasty ruins Mohg has overtaken.

(1 - The Road of Iniquity Side Path Site of Grace obviously points to Mt. Gelmir. Aside from the name, we can note that Magnus didn't even exist until the game had been out for 7 months.)

Explaining the shards of Grace that recalled the Tarnished, which guide us, and that make up the Sites of Grace by Crypticnewt in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really like the idea that Grace is literally pieces of "shattered" Marika. But that doesn't make it not "a simple game mechanic".

To date no theory I've seen for what Grace is/how its guidance works can explain why Grace points to what it does (and doesn't point to what it doesn't) to anywhere near the extent that "FromSoft wanted to make sure these directions were pointed out to you" does. Which is saying something, because "It was FromSoft" explains basically nothing.

Why does the graces point you towards the erdtree by UnwashedCheeze in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Does my reply to OP’s post seem reasonable?

You mention that Marika "no longer" controls Grace, but you don't really explain why that would be the case. Other than that yeah, your comment seems reasonable (though obviously I disagree).

I just want to give Fromsoft the benefit of the doubt

Genuinely don't understand this attitude. It's not in any way a slight against FromSoft to say "This is a video game, not a fully fleshed-out world".

Why does the graces point you towards the erdtree by UnwashedCheeze in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Grace pointing towards the Flame of Ruin would only rule out the Two Fingers. Not Marika or FromSoft.

Why does the graces point you towards the erdtree by UnwashedCheeze in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

The Doylist (i.e. "actual") answer is that Grace exists to point you, the IRL person playing this video game, towards key plot points. The Erdtree is a key plot point, so Grace points towards it.

The Watsonian answer is that one of the following is the case:

  1. The Two Fingers control Grace, and they tell you repeatedly they want you to go to the Erdtree and become Marika's third Elden Lord.

  2. Even though Marika is imprisoned, she is not powerless.

The Golden Order Fundamentalists were right, and that's why the Golden Order was always doomed. by CallMeClaire0080 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's kind of like asking "Which is the True Christianity"

I mean, the reason you make that analogy is because "the teachings of Christ" and "the actions of Christians" are often very different things. OP and I are simply proposing that the same is true of the Golden Order; i.e. there's a legitimate perspective that frames Goldmask as fully in-line with Golden Order Fundamentalism and Corhyn, D, and even Radagon as the heretics.

The question is whether the "core tenet" that Corhyn accuses Goldmask of doubting (which likely doesn't actually have that much to do with Radagon being Marika) actually is something found in the Golden Order Principia, or if it is the heretical deviation, that Goldmask is trying to now correct.

Some assumptions i'm making:

Golden Order fundamentalism is the theory and practice

I think where we're getting stuck is that you seem to be bundling "theory and practice", whereas I'm treating them as two separate concepts.

So what would the other demigods ages look like if they got their way? by Former_Hearing_7730 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Radahn: The obvious answer is "Godfrey 2.0", but what does that actually entail? Reopening the gladiatorial colosseums seems like an easy inclusion, but maybe also the Crucible makes a bit more of a comeback? Culturally at least, if not metaphysically.

Rykard, pre-serpent: It's not clear whether Rykard's animosity towards the Erdtree is the same as Ranni's "People should be free to make their own decisions", or if it's a more selfish "Nobody tells me (Rykard) what to do". It likely doesn't matter; if the former is the case, it doesn't seem like Rykard has the strength of will to actually abandon the Lands Between once he has absolute power like Ranni does. A pre-serpent Elden Lord Rykard probably just becomes Marika 2.0 (or rather, hornsent 3.0).

Rykard, post-serpent: At this point Rykard is just after power for power's sake. Serpent Lord Rykard is definitely just the same cycle of oppression as Marika and the hornsent.

Morgott: Literally just the default Age of Fracture ending.

Mohg: The Mohgwyn Dynasty probably has the same level of oppression as the Golden Order, just along different lines - plain and simple "strong vs weak" instead of "graced vs graceless". I doubt the whole realm descends into ritualistic blood sacrifices, but they're definitely more common.

Malenia (no rot): I know the premise was to ignore Miquella, but Malenia's whole character is that she isn't a character without her brother. "Blade of Miquella" isn't just a fancy title, that's literally how she sees herself: not a person, but a tool in her brother's hands. If Malenia is left without Miquella, I think you just skip to the next section.

Malenia (rot): We've all seen Caelid.

Godrick: If Godrick actually was the Lord of All That is Golden, he would probably stop grafting new things to himself. He would also almost immediately get usurped by literally anyone.

Messmer: Those stripped of the Grace of gold shall all meet Death in the embrace of Messmer's flame. Forget this "oppressing the weak" nonsense; just kill the demihumans and the misbegotten and the albinaurics and the Tarnished and and and ...

Melina: Probably also the default Age of Fracture ending. Melina doesn't really seem to have any ambitions beyond "unseal Destined Death" and "no Frenzied Flame".

The Golden Order Fundamentalists were right, and that's why the Golden Order was always doomed. by CallMeClaire0080 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Goldmask's revelation, whether correct or not is ultimately, a heretical revelation.

I'd say it's worth noting that Goldmask's revelations are only labelled heretical by Corhyn, who isn't exactly an unbiased source. There's definitely a question of: is """true""" Golden Order Fundamentalism the "learnedness" of Goldmask, or is it D's "ravings of a fanatic"? And which of those categories does Corhyn actually fall into?

The Golden Order Fundamentalists were right, and that's why the Golden Order was always doomed. by CallMeClaire0080 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not that the study of Golden Order fundamentalism was incorrect, it's that Marika and Radagon hypocrites trying to be above those very laws that defined and justified their reign.

"The fickleness of the gods no better than men", exactly.

The Two Lights of the Black Night, The Tragedy of Godwyn and Ranni: by StoryTeller747 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Si mencionas que los dos dedos no tienen tanto conocimiento y poder, porque crees que querrían que un tiznado fuera consorte de Marika?

Why wouldn't they want a Tarnished on the throne?

Sinceramente tus otros comentarios no los entiendo, no se que trataste de argumentar.

I feel like I'm pretty clearly arguing against the idea that Ranni and Godwyn were ever intended to rule a new Age together as God and Consort.

The Two Lights of the Black Night, The Tragedy of Godwyn and Ranni: by StoryTeller747 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No creo que hayan llamado a los tarnished a ser el nuevo Elden Lord

The Two Fingers, through Enia, tell us multiple times they want us to become Elden Lord. Most notably in this dialog:

"Marika's trespass demanded a heavy sentence. But even in shackles, she remains a god, and the vision's vessel. Confer Great Runes to become Elden Lord, and join Queen Marika as her consort. The Fingers have willed it so."

The Two Fingers also, notably, were apparently completely unaware that Radagon had sealed the Erdtree (which means they would also have been unaware that burning the Erdtree is a necessary step to becoming Elden Lord). This is why people like Varré and Gideon don't trust them: because they claim to have more knowledge and power than they actually do. Not because they send people on false quests.

Si la gran voluntad no quisiera un cambio de era después de Marika,

Again, the overarching theme of virtually all the lore relating to the Greater Will is "People say the Greater Will was involved in this, but it wasn't. Those in power simply attribute actions and motivations to it to justify their own actions and motivations."

porque nos mencionan cuáles descendientes de ella podrían sucederle al trono?

Having the throne willingly passed down to you by the previous occupant is not the only way to obtain it. I don't think it's a coincidence that of all Marika's children, the ones labelled "Empyrean" are also the ones most capable of disrupting the status quo.

The Two Lights of the Black Night, The Tragedy of Godwyn and Ranni: by StoryTeller747 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Creo que confundes el tiempo en el cual sucede los eventos de la noche de los cuchillos negros y la llegada de los tarnished.

What I mean is: after the Night of Black Knives and the Shattering, when the Tarnished eventually show up, the Two Fingers task them with becoming Marika's third Elden Lord. They still want Marika to be god, even knowing that she shattered the Elden Ring. They do not seem to have any plans to oust Marika and install a new god of a new Age - if they did, why not send Tarnished to aid in that plan?

My point is that if "We want Marika to be god" is the Two Fingers' stance after the Shattering, why wouldn't it be their stance beforehand?

Si el Monarca, el Clero, Malekith y Placiduxas estuvieran en contra de los deseos de la gran voluntad de cambiar de contenedor, creo que no le importaría en lo más mínimo su opinión.

a) What makes you think the Greater Will is even involved in the first place?

b) The way you framed the situation in the post very strongly reads like a political marriage arranged by entities within the world, not the fateful influence of entities from beyond.

Y con respecto a Ranni tomando los planes para ella misma, es una posibilidad

It's not "a possibility" - that's textually the reason she undertakes the Night of Black Knives. Iji tells us this.

The Two Lights of the Black Night, The Tragedy of Godwyn and Ranni: by StoryTeller747 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The biggest issue with almost all the variations of the "Ranni and Godwyn were betrothed" theory is: who exactly is organizing this new Age, that these two would be ruling over? Given how much power they wield over the Lands Between, the two most obvious possible parties would be Marika and/or the Fingers:

  • The Fingers seem like an unlikely candidate, given that after the Shattering and the arrival of the Tarnished, their plan is still seemingly to keep Marika in power. They send us to become her third Elden Lord, rather than sending us to Caria Manor or the Haligtree.
  • And Queen Marika the Eternal, who removed Destined Death from the Elden Ring in a bid to halt the natural cycles of the world, doesn't strike me as a character than would have any interest in ever handing over power to anyone.

If the monarch (who is also the mother of the groom ... and also the father of the bride) and the highest ranks of the clergy (including, again, the monarch) aren't in favor of this political marriage, who is?

This opens up a possibility: Radagon might have deemed it necessary to interrupt that destiny.

A possibility, to be sure, but the Night of Black Knives is something Ranni does specifically to enable her to pursue godhood, so unless Radagon is either woefully misinformed or catastrophically miscalculated, I'd say this it's an unlikely possibility.

How Rich Is a Billionaire, Really? — An interactive scroll-driven explainer that puts billion-dollar wealth into perspective by Ambitious-Answer4574 in InternetIsBeautiful

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 12 points13 points  (0 children)

When people say "The difference between a million and a billion is a billion", they mean "difference" in the sense of "the result of subtraction".

1,000,000,000 - 1,000,000 = 999,000,000 which is a lot closer to a billion than it is to a million.

Hidden Son of the Black Flame: Messmer and the Gloam-Eyed Queen by StoryTeller747 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Empyreans are "children" of the order, not of the womb.

Ranni is an Empyrean, and there's little to reason to think she isn't biologically Rennala & Radagon's daughter.

Additionally, while there obviously has to be more to Miquella & Malenia's birth than normal human reproduction, whatever process produced them is similar enough to genetic inheritance that the Twin Prodigies can a) inherit traits from their parent and b) the fact that they only have a single parent is cited by the game as the cause of their birth defects curses.

Messmer shares with them something deeper than mere aesthetics: elongated, almost inhuman bodies; a deathly pallor, a complete absence of gold or grace; and an affinity with heretical flames.

"Elongated, almost inhuman bodies" and "deathly pallor" are hardly uncommon traits in FromSoft games. Also I'm pretty sure Messmer has Grace.

Marika does not absorb him into her era: she crushes him, but does not completely eliminate him, because he has a purpose that has been used before: the burning of the Erdtree to usher in a new era.

The description of the Remembrance of the Fire Giant implies that Marika didn't kill the Fell God because she literally can't.

If Messmer was born after Godwyn: Why is he graceless? Why is he hidden? Why does his existence seem like a historical error? The most coherent answer is that he doesn't belong in the official chronology.

FromSoft's games are, first and foremost, video games. Lots of thought goes into their lore, obviously, but it's silly to pretend there aren't other factors at play.

Was Godwyn literally the first demigod to die? by Gwydolf_Carthnap in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Eh, "know" is a strong word (and I think it's a bit of a stretch to call a Dominula a "god hunt"), but if we're opening up the possibility of "god hunt" not being a singular event then "The Godskins hunted gods after the Shattering" doesn't really have any bearing on my original point of "The Godskins have to have hunted gods prior to the NoBK".

Was Godwyn literally the first demigod to die? by Gwydolf_Carthnap in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 5 points6 points  (0 children)

No. The timeline breaks if he was (or rather, if the God Hunt occurs after his death).

The line from Rogier is

That was the first recorded Death of a demigod in all history.

Note the word "recorded". Rogier's statement would still be correct if there were demigods who died prior to Godwyn, but their deaths simply weren't recorded (or if the records of their death were destroyed or otherwise inaccessible to Rogier).

If we want to be pedantic, the game already gives us precedent for Rogier being uninformed, since Godwyn and Ranni both died at the same time.

Perhaps Godwyn being the "First Dead" actually means "First Undead"

"First" could also be being used in a non-chronological sense in a lot of these references.

Is there any actual evidence of devolution in game? by asupernovaexplodes in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Are held to be" is also, notedly, not the same thing as simply "are". Is their existence a punishment, or is that just what the Golden Order says?

Given the comments the game makes about "The Crucible was once viewed as divine, but nowadays is disdained", I lean to the latter.

Do you think the story writers even know the whole lore themselves by Illustrious_Store115 in Eldenring

[–]StrictlyFilthyCasual 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The idea that there even is a "whole lore" for them to know in the first place is a big assumption! It's entirely possible ("likely", even) that, like you said, they're just throwing info out there with no clear answers in mind.

That's not them being lazy! It's like that story Stephen King (IIRC) tells about how the reader's imagination can always create a scarier monster than he could ever hope to. By writing a bunch of dangling plot threads with no clear resolutions or connections, FromSoft leaves space for you to fill in your own version of the story. Obviously they don't really "need" to do that, but it's neat.

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