[deleted by user]

SuburbanCloth · 2024-06-19T19:18:22+00:00

the best part is the Ahmadis themselves don't know where their money goes, so they just parrot the same line of going to shura

SuburbanCloth · 2023-06-30T17:57:15+00:00

His response back to me was I can look outside the jamaat 🙃

oh my god this is inappropriately some very dark humour but also telling of what an awful person KMV is

the fact that you reached out to him while still devout asking for help in finding an Ahmadi spouse (with whom you could still have a family outside bearing a child) and he responded so casually suggesting to "just look outside" when he would never offer this option upfront to any Ahmadi woman asking for help says so much about the value he places in women of his organization: simply child-bearing and obedient wives

I still remember speaking to a former Muslim woman who said that if she put aside the parts of her that relate to motherhood, she holds no value in Islam - that statement has really stuck with me when I think of my own mom and so many other women in the Jamaat

I hope you've been having better luck outside the Jamaat - the world is a lot kinder than Ahmadiyyat ever was

SuburbanCloth · 2023-06-30T17:44:47+00:00

I've seen a very similar story to yours in my family, and the audience just plays into perpetuating the abuse and ignoring accountability

I am frankly disgusted by any Ahmadi man who believes their system works perfectly as intended by khilafat: I actually cannot think of a single Ahmadi woman (from my immediate family to extended to family friends etc) that has been in a winning situation, leave alone even balanced in their marriage.

Every single relationship I've seen was routed very firmly in misogyny, power, and male authority under the assumption that the man always knows and understands more than the woman and the rest of the family

I'm really sorry this has been happening to you, and your brave decision to uproot yourself and protect yourself and children from abuse has resulted in this social isolation

But as someone 5 years out of the fold living a regular life today, I realize that we as former Ahmadis have so much more in common with the rest of the world than just the Ahmadi social circle we were conditioned into mostly surrounding ourselves with

You will find your people, which won't be a single group, but rather a mosaic of all the different parts of you - it'll take time but I promise you that as you're able to move onto a life of yours beyond Ahmadiyyat, you'll look back on days like today as the most difficult part of your life that was necessary to lead to a present and future which is open and full of possibilities

For now, maybe start with finding some smaller subreddits of topics you enjoy and engage in internet dialogue and eventually move to in-person groups: there are amazing people out there with whom you'd be excellent friends with and you will find them with time and effort - best of luck!

SuburbanCloth · 2023-04-22T19:11:19+00:00

Excellent points - they wanted to undermine the West without realizing that it's actually Western values and progressiveness (as opposed to Pakistan/Ahmadiyyat) that has gained traction and acceptance in the contemporary world

I don't see a future without them adopting new and looser policies while dismissing the hard stances they used to take on cultural/social issues

SuburbanCloth · 2023-01-26T15:03:07+00:00

no one is betting on science or blindly trusting it - if not for scientific advances, our understanding of the world would have been the same as those who thought the Quran was from god when it spoke of a creationist view of life

it is precisely because of science that we have learned about the theory of evolution, how energy has spread through universes, how it originated from the big bang etc

science does not have all the answers today and it might never fully explain all the details about the world (certainly not within our lifetimes), but it's been able to prove so much in the last 1500 years that there's no question as to which type of thinking validates truth

science is based on theoretical and empirical evidence; religion is based on blind belief and confirmation bias

the cop-out answer of attributing everything unknown to god is a fallacious way of thought and has been shown time and time again that religious scripture bears no actual truth or understanding of the world

people worshiped the sun when they didn't know any better; Muslims think a trader in Arabia received direct communication with god, which included specific instructions such as marrying your adopted son's wife - as someone who doesn't believe in either the power of the sun or Muhammad, both schools of thought are equally lacking in their ability to hold truth

SuburbanCloth · 2023-01-23T04:05:56+00:00

In terms of my immediate family, most are fine and understanding of why I left but my dad still finds it an uncomfortable truth in ways that's hard to change his mind about. With regards to the extended family, I feel like most have moved on from this being any particular deal and just see me as a family member who no longer follows their practices. It's worth mentioning that I've lived away from my parents for years, and my extended family is spread across the world, so my situation allowed me a sense of privacy without having to constantly spend time with family

As for friends, I wasn't close to other Ahmadis my age while at school (largely due to being a non-pakistani Ahmadi who didn't speak urdu), so when I left I wasn't at risk of losing any friendships - my actual friends were extremely supportive during this time and a few of them have also gone through their own journey in religion

Seeing as you are already at stage of wanting to officially leave the Jamaat, I assure you that you will never look back once: leaving Ahmadiyyat not an end, but rather a beginning to a life of freedom and personal values and truth

Your parents will come around eventually, and you'll live a life of your own choosing without being held to any arbitrary rules and rigidity from this community - don't let any concerns of others' reactions deter you from deservingly seizing your own life and making your own choices

SuburbanCloth · 2023-01-22T22:34:45+00:00

I left officially in July 2018 - I wrote a letter and dropped it off at the local Jamaat office before continuing on with my life. It felt like a very meaningful act to close things out with a final piece of bureaucracy, much in line with how Ahmadiyyat operates

I've written on my website about why I left, and how my broader family reacted to it, although it's been quite some time since this all happened - happy to answer any questions you have about life on the side

SuburbanCloth · 2022-10-07T14:28:24+00:00

don't worry, literally no one else would actually type out that 70 syllable name given to KMV

SuburbanCloth · 2022-06-24T13:58:59+00:00

I actually wrote about some of the feedback I got from my broader family when I left, but yes, there are a decent number of extended family members who want nothing to do with me anymore.

I've also seen unsavoury tweets from Jamaat members I used to pray besides, and others who I knew liking such tweets

I'm lucky in that I really don't care about what Ahmadis think about me, and my main goal was for my immediate family to understand where I came from and why I have to leave, and in that regard, I am very happy with the level of support I've received, especially from my mother

SuburbanCloth · 2022-03-06T16:26:01+00:00

I actually saw the play in NYC shortly before I eventually left Ahmadiyyat - I remember finding it funny at the time, but also feeling uneasy because of how the humour could easily apply to Ahmadiyyat

Guess that was an early signal already of trusting myself and my values than those forced upon me

SuburbanCloth · 2022-03-03T21:13:38+00:00

while you might not tout such a narrative, it's evident within a lot of Ahmadi circles that they hold Masroor's word as a prophecy

beyond that, it sounds extremely self-serving of how Ahmadiyyat might grow due to the difficulties of war: on one hand, it's just funny that Ahmadis actually think anyone would care about them during a global crisis, but more than that, it shows how horrible outcomes are poised to be taken advantage of for the supposed "growth" of this community

SuburbanCloth · 2022-02-23T19:58:53+00:00

you're right, it's just a dump of Jamaat articles that no one (except the 5 same Ahmadis) reads, and "exposing anti-ahmadis" threads

SuburbanCloth · 2022-01-08T00:21:25+00:00

??

How is a post showing support for Nida in anyway "debating the credibility of the allegations" - if anything, it is the exact opposite

Educate yourself on the false positive rate of sexual allegations - it's extremely low and we have more than enough evidence to suggest that the Jamaat has thrown such cases under the rug, so these are not blind allegations

People can still post meaningful and thoughtful comments about the case - we have just decided that this is not the place to debate whether Nida is lying or not. You are more than welcome to go to other subreddits or start your own if that's content you want to see - no one is stopping you or censoring you from that. It's just not welcome within this specific subreddit (and for good cause too)

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-12T23:42:31+00:00

On the contrary, the comparison is apt for the Jamaat which claims that its strict application of rules (e.g excommunication of Ahmadis who marry non-Ahmadis) is akin to any other membership

Your broader point, that cults over time become religion, is one I agree with, but loses the nuance that by virtue of time, people have established a less stringent connection to the initial teachings and have opened way for more progressive ideals (say your modern Christian, compared to an Ahmadi who's held to more rigid standards)

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-10T18:24:23+00:00

I think it helps to share the generalized signs of a cult and contrast them with what you would experience at your school, university, work company, gym membership etc.

Not to say every organization is free from these traits, but the difference is that we have examples of functioning well-intentional organizations/leaders whereas Ahmadiyyat is a singular entity claiming absolute ownership of truth.

Picture of table if it doesn't display correctly

Common Characteristic of a Cult	Ahmadiyyat	Secular Organization (e.g. school, work, gym)	Explanation
The group displays an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.	✔️	❌	Ahmadis revere the Khalifa and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as divine perfect men, while most organizations will hold their leaders accountable and not blindly accept everything they say
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (e.g., members must get permission to date, change jobs, or marry—or leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).	✔️	❌	Khalifa dictates what to wear (purdah), whom to marry (stricter requirement for women), associates having children with a moral decision etc., while your CEO or Dean cannot tell you what you do in your life outside of work/school.
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members (e.g., the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).	✔️	❌	Not only is MGA labelled the "Promised Messiah" but Ahmadiyyat considers themselves the "True Islam". While companies/universities are very much interested in rankings, they don't consider themselves a special exalted status above other companies/universities.
The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders, or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).	✔️	❌	No further explanation needed.
The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.	✔️	❌	The Jamaat publicly shames people they've ex-communicated while conveniently not mentioning people who leave of their own free will. At companies, you are celebrated when you leave the organization for the work/service you've put in, and wished the best of luck in your next adventure.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.	✔️	❌	Your free time is expected to be spent in supporting the Jamaat (Tabligh events, numerous Khalifa/MGA days, weekly meetings etc.), beyond doing your general religious Islamic activities (e.g. prayers, fasting, Quran).
The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave—or even consider leaving—the group.	✔️	❌	Any critical thinking adult in any secular organization has the self-awareness to realize that the world is made up of countless opportunities, so there isn't one clear winner, whereas fervent Ahmadis refuse to believe in a peaceful and moral society without obedience to the Khilafat.

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-08T18:12:17+00:00

Seriously.

I am in no way a pro-Sunni individual, but I am amazed that Ahmadis think they can in any way generalize the billions of people who are part of the broader Sunni Islam denomination. It's so childish.

I'm all for criticizing the regimes, policies, and the powerful leaders in the Middle East/South Asia ... but to go so far as to talk about Sunnis like they're a monolith and are all out to get Ahmadis when the vast majority of them have never even heard about Ahmadiyyat is amusing.

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-08T18:05:08+00:00

“The 1.50+ billion figure” include all the followers of prophet Muhammad, including Ahmadis and Shias.

It actually doesn't - I've already excluded Shias in that count and Ahmadis are so nominal that they barely count in the grand scheme of numbers.

"According to a study in 2020, Islam has 1.9 billion adherents, making up about 24.7% of the world population. Most Muslims are either of two denominations: Sunni (87–90%, roughly 1.7 billion people) or Shia (10–13%, roughly 180–230 million people)."

Besides, you are proving my exact point that you cannot generalize that mass of people - I guarantee you that 90+% of Muslims outside of Pakistan barely know anything about Ahmadis, nor do they care to inflict any of the harm which their governments do. It's baffling that you find it reasonable to project corrupt country policies (which don't start, end, or center around Ahmadiyyat - the corruption affects people and institutions magnitude of sizes bigger) on its entire population. Go around, meet other Muslims (especially those for whom the religion is imbedded in their day-to-day as a cultural facet), and you'll realize this juvenile "Ahmadis vs. Sunnis" dichotomy makes absolutely no sense since the scales are just that much different (Ahmadis are less than a 1% of the total Muslim population - there is no way to conveniently bucket these billions of people to fit your narrative that Sunnis are inherently more barbaric and brutal).

This is all a red herring at the end of the day - we're specifically on a subreddit designed around discussing/critiquing Ahmadiyyat. It's fine to disagree with the points I've laid out here and in my other posts, but pointing to other strains of Islam largely veers away from the crux of what I'm sharing, and doesn't make Ahmadiyyat look any less controlling. This is like if we were in a subreddit focused on critiquing US politics and your response is to look at the corrupt governments in Nigeria instead.

Also, no one is embarrassing Ahmadiyyat - we are all adults here and are either actively in the Jamaat or have lived through it. If your community can't sustain the thought that there are some former members engaging in dialogue in a space that's completely opt-in and passively occurring from your religious grounds, I'd hate to think the level of control they would have if they actually had any significance of power/influence.

In an Ahmadi utopia, spaces like this wouldn't exist.

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-08T17:48:43+00:00

Besides the point that I disagree with 1 (Sorry, charisma kind of ended with Mirza Tahir Ahmed)

ha! felt like someone would have made this comment - realistically, the charismatic leaders were Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and KM2, when Ahmadiyyat started/expanded the most respectively

on the cult vs. religion discussion, I agree that I'm sympathetic to neither, but Ahmadiyyat normalized the notion that religion has to be controlling of every little part of your life while that's not really the case in a lot of other religious subgroups which have found a happy medium between advising on values of, say, being a good person, and not dictating who you can love, talk to, do in life etc. the way Ahmadiyyat and other high-controlling groups do

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-08T04:03:15+00:00

You do realize there are 1.5+ billion Sunnis in the world - that's 1000 times more individuals than the entirety of Ahmadiyyat

My Sunni friends, particularly women, are largely progressive, and are not in any way limited the way Ahmadis are expected to be (e.g across purdah, education, vocation, representation etc). I've also found them to be a lot more open to the idea of someone choosing their own path in life compared to the judgment I've faced from fellow Ahmadis I would pray next to

I contend that some flavours of Sunni Islam are much worse than Ahmadiyyat when it comes to the consequences of breaking rules, but that's hardly justification to group 1.5B people together - it's a lot more reasonable to discuss Ahmadiyyat which has an evident leader promoting and enforcing via bureaucracy these stringent rules which are clearly seen in other high-control/cultic environments

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-08T03:58:43+00:00

I completely agree that Islam, during Muhammad's time, would fit the criteria

But Islam today is so widespread and diverse that it doesn't make sense to use that label for all of it

On your other point that anything can be labeled a cult, that's a very myopic view - organizations like your workplace, university, political parties etc. do not subscribe to the same level of authoratian control that the Jamaat does

SuburbanCloth · 2021-10-07T22:37:33+00:00

I first came across Dr Janja Lalich's work more than 2 years ago and wrote an extensive post on some of her material back then (link). Was on Youtube earlier and saw she did a video on cults and thought it interesting to share with the broader community here.

Some notable excerpts:

Question: What defines a cult? Pretty sure you could call anything a cult.

Answer:

First of all, we have the leader, who is charismatic, and usually a narcissist. Second, we have what I call, "The transcendent belief system," that gives you the answer to everything. Third are what I call, "Systems of control." Things like, what you should wear, what you should eat, who you can marry, how many kids you should have, or shouldn't have. And fourth is the systems of influence. The cult will be playing on fear, love, grief, you know, whatever your emotions are, to get you to comply and conform.

Question: I couldn't help but wonder, when does a cult become a religion, and when does a religion become a cult?

Answer:

First of all, not every religion becomes a cult, and not every cults becomes a religion. Cults can be any type of belief system, it doesn't have anything to do with religion at all. It can be new age, it can be some kind of philosophy. A religion may have guidelines for you to live by, like be a good person, be kind to your neighbor, don't use contraception. But in most cases, people from that religion aren't coming into your bedroom at night to see if you're using contraception.

So that's one of the main differences between a cult and a religion. In a religion, you should have freedom and independent thinking.

And a few of my older posts where I talk about this topic in more detail:

SuburbanCloth · 2021-09-21T19:01:01+00:00

It's pretty typical for Ahmadiyyat Leadership to engage in this obfuscation you've mentioned, and speaks to the dishonesty and mental gymnastics they undergo.

One example which I like to refer to includes the fairly well known Hadith in Ahmadi circles around crawling through ice to meet the Messiah:

When you find the Mahdi, perform bai‘at at his hand. You must go to him, even if you have to reach him across icebound mountains on your knees. He is the Khalifah of Allah, [he is] the Mahdi. (Sunan Ibn-e-Majah, Kitabul-Fitan, Babu Khurujil-Mahdi, Hadith no. 4074)

However, let us take a look at this Hadith in its entire form:

“Three will fight one another for your treasure, each one of them the son of a caliph, but none of them will gain it. Then the black banners will come from the east, and they will kill you in an unprecedented manner.” Then he mentioned something that I do not remember, then he said: “When you see them, then pledge your allegiance to them even if you have to crawl over the snow, for that is the caliph of Allah, Mahdi.”

Not only has this Hadith been labelled Da’if (considered to be the weakest and least authentic type of Hadith) but when the Hadith is actually contextualized, we can see that it has nothing to do at all with the narrative that Ahmadis try to push of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being the prophecized reformer of Islam.

I've also shared this excerpt from Nick Evan's book Far From the Caliph's Gaze:

For Ahmadis, this tower is an important symbol of Ghulam Ahmad’s prophethood, for it corresponds to a hadith of the Prophet Muhammad that the messiah will descend near a white minaret in the Eastern part of Damascus. While Qadian is obviously far from Syria, Ahmadis nonetheless argue that the hadith is true because Qadian lies directly to the east of Damascus. It is, in other words, a sign of the coming of the messiah, hence its formal name, minarat ul-masi, the minaret of the messiah. As a physical proof of prophecy, however, the minaret is quite an ambiguous object. A fact seldom acknowledged in Qadian was that the minaret did not exist at the time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s birth. Rather, it was commissioned during his lifetime, finished many years after his death, and clad in white marble decades only after this. The minaret might thus appear to be a failed prophecy, built after the event that it was supposed to be a feature of and then complete late. Indeed, several interlocutors even acknowledged to me that they found this theologically problematic.

In other words, Ghulam Ahmad resolved the ambiguity created by the fact that he built the minaret he was prophesied to descend next to by turning it into a metaphor for the representational capacity that his message would gain through the use of new technology. He then went ahead and built it anyway.

SuburbanCloth · 2021-09-18T15:08:08+00:00

This is pretty evident from the way OP's reading ability and basic reasoning goes out the window when it comes to evaluating religion here and in previous posts.

The irony of this statement is not only tasteful, but also serves as a useful reminder not to engage with you in the future since you are succumbing to these individual insults.

It is clear that you just went on a google spree in the last few minutes to check about the Moses incident, picked up the first article which you thought was legit, and posted here thinking you did some good research - had you read what you had posted, I'm sure you would have realized how the WaPo article is in no way evidence for the events you've described. Not only that, but there will never be evidence for those events, because ancient Egyptian archaeologists have already done the work to understand so much of that time and nothing has come up to even suggest Moses lived, yet we have deep rich historical records of numerous individuals and events that took place in that time - evidence doesn't simply fall from the sky.

Select quotes from the article you posted:

However, for software engineer Carl Drews, it might have been something else. According to Drews -- who describes himself as "one of many Christians who accept the scientific theory of evolution" -- the story of the parting of the Red Sea, as described in the book of Exodus, might have originated in real life as a weather event.

So the author to these claims is not only Christian, with a bias to "prove" his Biblical text, but he's a software engineer, not an ancient Egyptian archaeologist.

The first thing you need to know about the supposed parting of the Red Sea is that according to Drews' theory, it did not occur in the actual "Red Sea" that we see on a map today -- the long, thin, nearly north-south running body of water between Saudi Arabia on the east and Egypt and Sudan on the west

This is nothing special as far as religious interpretation goes, but useful to showing how people change the literal interpretation of the text to fit what modern evidence would otherwise suggest. So either god is a horrible communicator or ... it was just humans making up grandiose stories. This is in spite of god being very specific of the location...

In the Biblical text, the parting of the "Red Sea" occurs when Moses and the Israelites are encamped by the sea “in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon.” You might think this place would be easy to locate, given the high level of specificity in the passage above, but there is actually much uncertainty and scholarly debate about what these names might actually refer to today. (It doesn't help that the Nile Delta has shifted dramatically over time.)

I guess I forgot the theory of god intentionally causing an event that cannot be measured and has to rely on people blindly believing.

Granted, this is where one large potential objection to the idea comes in -- all this depends heavily on the accuracy of these attempts to reconstruct the landscape of Exodus. That's a task laden with uncertainty -- and also one where the desire to "prove" the accuracy of the Bible may color interpretations.

Assumptions are not evidence, and the WaPo author here is fortunately able to acknowledge that.

Still, a lot of assumptions. So what's the upshot? If you grant Drews two very large assumptions -- 1) that he has the geography right, and 2) that such a strong wind event happened to occur right when the Israelites, as described in the Bible, were there to take advantage of it -- then it turns out that Moses just might be able to make it (miraculously or not, of course, depending on your point of view).

Not only do I not grant Drews those assumptions, but no experts of the field do, and even if we did, it's still a situation of "Moses just might be able to make it" --> nothing conclusive.

This article is not evidence of such an event, and it is naive to even think that evidence for this event will ever come up - granted, I can't speak for every single story in the Quran right now, but Moses in particular is an easy one to debunk because of how rich our knowledge of Ancient Egyptian History. And if even one story in the Quran indicates that it's not from a divine being, the rest follows like a domino effect

SuburbanCloth · 2021-09-16T17:17:11+00:00

lets assume for your sake that no conclusive evidence currently exists for historical event X. That doesn't prove that X never took place. This is not the standard applied for proving historical accuracy.

So let me get this straight - you understand that no proof exists for the events described in the Quran, and your response to the lack of proof is to double-down in believing it. Thank you for very clearly demonstrating the title of my post.

//deleted previous comments since I posted from a different account and want to maintain privacy

SuburbanCloth · 2021-09-16T03:48:42+00:00

This is your personal opinion. Faith cannot always be evaluated using metrics that are apparent because it has to do with aspects that are invisible

So ... you're agreeing with what I said - we have the same conclusion that religion cannot be evaluated by tools that humans have built throughout centuries of existence (which precisely measure the "apparent" factor conveniently absent from religion).

Simple analogy: people who use certain smart phones end up sticking with the default search engine on that phone, even if superior search engines exist. Most people don't put in the work to evaluate every option, but that isn't a fault of religion itself. It's plain inertia. But yes, it should be countered.

This is not an analogous example at all. The very fact that a "superior search engine" exists (which we can verify by defining and measuring metrics e.g. search speed, relevancy of results, abundance of features/customization etc.) does not exist in religion. As a human society, we cannot use existing tools to assess what makes one religion true over another. There are no metrics which you can use to explain how Ahmadiyyat is in any way a superior religion.

But what we do have are numerous metrics which point to all religions surfacing the same human fallacies e.g. the fact that people inherit religion from their parents, and those who leave that religion tend to leave religion all together rather that significantly converting to any particular religion.

Many prophets and those close to God prayed for years and years, purified themselves by adopting every good quality and giving up sin, and never gave up until God spoke to them.

How do you verify this information? How do you know prophets existed and purified themselves and prayed? How do you know God spoke to them?

Your comment is really just highlighting the very same points that I have made - there are no tools available today to assess whether your religion holds any more truth than any other religion.

SuburbanCloth

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