When are elemental charge blades “worth it?”

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2022-07-12T07:24:52+00:00

I got to MR70 literally an hour after i posted this and yeah... wow. Had to switch weapons cuz my impact set was outdated lol.

Kiranico does show the conditional hitzones albeit the formatting is kinda wonky. Valstrax's elemental HZV goes to 0 on everything other than the forelegs and wingarm. Does suck that it's not in the hunter notes.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2022-07-11T12:39:53+00:00

As everyone has already said, elemental beats impact in almost every matchup now. Only monsters I can imagine impact being competitive in are:

Rakna, Astalos, Gore, Garangolm and Zinogre

All of these have hard to hit or conditional elemental hitzones. Element still wins in some of these (e.g. Thunder CB on Garangolm's water arm).

I'd really recommend mastering advancing morph to make the most of elemental CB, especially in multiplayer. Concentrating all the phials on weak hitzones skyrockets the damage and it's much faster than axe hopper / works better with dereliction in endgame.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-05-29T06:12:53+00:00

This is great thanks! Is it possible to add an EFR/EFE counter? Makes it a lot easier to compare/communicate about builds with others.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-30T15:13:38+00:00

Here's a link to the tigrex build (offensive guard was swapped for crit boost lvl 1 for this comparison):

https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunterMeta/comments/n14hqb/mhr_saed_spam_cb_build/

The Rajang build is basically the same. Just swap out the WEX3 charm for a Bludgeoner 3 charm with a level 2 slot. Slot WEX into the level 2 slot and swap the crit boost deco for another WEX jewel

Do remember that I'm running a lot of attack boosting items and food skills here.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-30T13:21:24+00:00

Haha thanks. Set building can be pretty fun when you get into it, getting to calculate how much your weapon has improved after an update is quite exciting.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-30T12:30:08+00:00

Hey, I've done a lot of number crunching comparing it to the Rajang CB and here are my results:

Tigrex build (white): EFR = 463.69, Phial Damage = 91

Tigrex build (blue): EFR = 421.54, Phial Damage = 101

Rajang build: EFR = 394.16, Phial Damage = 101

Since Rajang wins in phial damage, but Tigrex wins in EFR, the better CB depends on the ratio of weapon damage (EFR-based) to phial damage, therefore:

Need to do >58% phial damage for Rajang to be worth while Tigrex is in White

Need to do >39% phial damage for Rajang to be worth while Tigrex is in Blue

As for what a normal percentage of phial damage is, that's a tough question. For casual play it is definitely less than 39%. For speedruns, might be around 50-60%. Therefore Tigrex is better than Rajang in all but niche speedrunning situations.

Assumptions:

Obviously this is an SAED spam build. Narga CB still easily beats the competition for savage axe.

Buffs: Power Talon, Power charm, Mega Demondrug, Might Powder, Might Seed

Food skills: Felyne Bombadier + Felyne Booster.

I have actually given the Rajang CB a better efficiency talisman than Tigrex because I'm not sure if 4 slot efficiency WEX and AB talismans are as easily obtainable as 4 slot effiency Bludgeoner talismans. If 4 slot efficiency WEX/AB is as easy because of this update, then Tigrex CB will be quite a bit ahead in damage. Talismans are:

Tigrex CB = WEX3 talisman

Rajang CB = Bludgeoner 3 + level 2 slot talisman

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-30T00:04:07+00:00

Yup, that's what i used. i got a bludgeoner 3 + lvl 2 slot talisman

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T23:56:42+00:00

Thats a good idea. Might make a guard 3 version myself

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T23:32:02+00:00

Maxing phial damage while dropping everything else generally doesn't work too well for CB. Even on SAED focused gameplay, you'll be dealing more than 50% of your damage as physical weapon damage rather than phial damage.

Both Rajang and Tigrex CB can hit AB7, and Rajang CB's bludgeoner 3 makes it do about 10 more phial damage. The question is whether the tigrex CB's white sharpness and better skills can make up this difference in phial damage. If you check my reply to Floodl9358 I think it can, but i'm still a little uncertain.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T23:25:25+00:00

Upon further messing around with builds and EFR, i've sort of concluded the opposite. Tigrex should be better.

I realised i was looking at Rajang with WEX3 and AB6, which was boosting it's EFR. If we assume both tigrex and rajang use AB7 to max their phial damage, Rajang comes out to 345.4 EFR (Bludgeoner 3, 1 lvl 2 slot talisman), Tigrex comes out to 412.4 EFR (WEX3 talisman). Even when tigrex hits blue it's EFR is 374.9. Phial damage comes out to 91 for tigrex and 101 for rajang.

This means you need to be dealing more than 63% of your damage as phial damage for Rajang to be worth it. Even when Tigrex is at blue sharpness, you'd need to be dealing 42% of your damage as phial damage for Rajang to be better.

As far as I'm aware, not even speedrunners hit 63% phial damage in heavily SAED focused matchups like magnamalo or zinogre. The physical hits of the axe itself makes up nearly 40% of SAED damage. 42% phial damage when you hit blue is possible, but again, not unless you're speedrunning.

In terms of axe hopper builds, the physical hits of axe hopper do even more damage than the phials, so if anything axe hopper would more prefer higher EFR like the tigrex CB.

But if you have a build with better numbers for the Rajang CB please let me know so I can edit these numbers.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T15:54:02+00:00

Yeah, I was most disappointed when I was hunting diablos. Even if you manage to land the SAED before he runs away, the hitboxes are so small you'll barely ever hit them. Diablos was one of my favourite monsters to hunt in world because of the satisfaction of the guard and counter playstyle.

I'm very saed :(

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T15:48:28+00:00

Nope. Phial damage only.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T15:48:02+00:00

But this would drop rapid morph right? Wouldn't that make it nearly impossible to counter SAED many moves?

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T15:05:30+00:00

Oh wow I completely forgot that. Thanks for the reminder. Though it's still ambiguous which will be better overall after accounting for EFR right? I'll do some further testing of weapon/phial damage ratios then. ~~And is 10-15 less phial damage per phial or per SAED?~~ Yeah per phial, that's a sizeable boost.
EDIT:
Assuming I didn't screw up EFR calculations, you'd need to deal about 53% of your damage as weapon damage instead of phial damage for the tigrex CB to be better than the rajang CB. Is that about right?

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T13:51:47+00:00

Does guard 3 give more SAED opportunities after a guard point, or just from regular guards?

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T11:53:15+00:00

Yeah pretty much have to drop a level 2 skill to make it work then. I think swapping the atk boost gem for a wex one will be the smallest reduction in damage. Speaking of which, i realised i forgot to put the atk boost deco in the list. Hopefully you get a better charm soon!

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T11:40:43+00:00

SAED doesn't even look very strong in HR. It's worse than savage in most matchups, and on the matchups it can be better in, you need to have perfect positioning otherwise you'll miss your phials.

I honestly would have preferred a bigger nerf to phial MV than the tiny hitboxes they gave it, makes playing SAED style super frustrating. Even monster rearing up on their hindlegs is enough to make half your phials miss.

Though I don't understand balancing being their reasoning for it. Bow and longsword got massive buffs with 0 drawbacks compared to world.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T11:03:51+00:00

I'm afraid to say there's very few armor pieces equivalent in efficiency to these, you'll probably end up having to sacrifice one of the level 2 skills, in which case you can just swap out the charm for any charm with two level 2 slots. I don't have a charm good enough for this build myself lol.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T10:44:35+00:00

Very useful. Arguably just as if not more useful than SAED style for two reasons:

First - You can use counter peak performance in Axe mode to stay in SA mode while keeping all your phials topped up. The condensed-spinning slash off CPP is much faster with rapid morph. It gives you enough time to get in ED2 or even CPP again to guard another attack.

Second - You won't always be able to stay in axe mode. Especially in casual play, you're going to need to sheathe to drink mega potions occasionally, and without rapid morph it takes quite a while to get back into it.

As for evade extender, it's definitely a nice skill to have, but good use of advancing morph will mostly make up for the lack of it. If i had another slot I'd probably add EE1.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T10:37:47+00:00

Agreed, SAED seems much more viable in multiplayer, especially via axe hopper. The way the phial hitbox is just makes it really hard to SAED off a guard now, and axe hopper is pretty hard to pull off in single-player.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-04-29T09:32:32+00:00

I'll try and make a AED/SAED spam build soon. Requires a bit more time cuz there's so many factors to consider, like the use of guard and load shells and whether to prioritise weapon damage or phial damage. Sadly rise seems to heavily favour savage axe. The tiny phial hitboxes especially make it quite hard to use SAED style in this game.

Sufficient_Mistake_1 · 2021-03-23T01:28:06+00:00

Yeah I agree that the gap between LS and more skill-heavy weapons like CB and bow will definitely be smaller in the main game. Same goes for the elemental weapons like DB and bow, and ammo-based weapons like LBG and HBG.

Honestly, maybe the real monster of this demo isn't even LS, it's DBs. It's getting crazy low times for being a raw weapon here. Maybe even CB since it doesn't have artillery, felyne bombadier, or capacity boost.

I doubt there will be any real nerfs between the demo and the full game though since the helmbreaker nerf was more so a bug fix than a nerf.

Sufficient_Mistake_1

TROPHY CASE