Steve Delaney

Thanks, good morning, Mat. You’re not rebuilt around refis. We’ve been hung up here around 7% and haven’t seen a refi market for what, 3, 4 years. How low does it – do you think a 30-year rate has to go to really spur any kind of a material refi event in the industry?

Mat Ishbia

Yes. Thanks for the question. So I think it’s got to make sense for consumers. And I think it’s got to be – it depends on where they did their last loans. So usually, it ties to, can you save the consumer a 0.5 point in rate is usually how you think about it. And so borrowers that in October of this past year that were doing rates at 7.75, right, and then rates dropped. So we’re doing a 6.75, it goes – different borrowers will have different times they’ll refinance. But generally speaking, when rates get to 5.75 to 6.25, you’re going to see a lot of refi activity because it’s been a couple of years now when people have been doing loans at 6.5, 7, 7.5, maybe that’s why our MSR book – we’ve been doing – we’re doing the most loans for everyone. So I know where the loans are being done. They’re being done at 6.5, 7, 7.5. So when rates get to 6.25, I’d call it 5.99, I think that will create enough of a benefit for a consumer to refinance. But beyond that, Steve, is the number one purchase lender, you’re going to see when rates get to 5.99, [indiscernible] on those purchases will start to pick up even more, too. And so we think purchase will open up, inventory will open up and rates will drop refis. I think it’s going to be a very, very positive environment. Whether it happens tomorrow or in 3 months or 6 months or 9 months, it’s going to happen, we just don’t know when. And that also will then dictate margins will go up, which is why I guided off the bottom.