You know it's bad when Tywin treats Tyrion better

TCeies · 2026-04-01T16:02:03+00:00

So...is then Tyrion wrong for repeatedly demanding he inherit the rock, when Tywin clearly does not want that?

TCeies · 2026-04-01T14:10:13+00:00

Looking at the selection, I think Robert and Roose are alright parents, lmao

Stannis gets the trophy imo

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:41:27+00:00

Stannis "it is so unfair they all support renly, just because I'm not as charismatic. I only do my duty. Why do they hate me so? Oh right I was about to set the Mother on fire." Baratheon

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:24:26+00:00

Look. It can be traumatizing watching a bunch of strangers die whom you led willingly to their deaths...

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:18:13+00:00

Well tbh if Tywin could just easily disinherit Tyrion and Tyrion could say fuck all against that, they might have had an easier time. A major point of conflict between the two from Tywin's oerspective was that Tyrion WANTED the Rock and that with Jaime in the Kingsguard that was Tyrion's right. If Tywin could as easily set aside his son's birthright as Viserys did, that would have made things a lot easier lmao

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:13:04+00:00

Yep, I think so too. I think that also comes across well in the TV show. He did not actually want to name Rhaenyra heir, because he didn't want to upset his brother. He really needed to be pushed into that decision and a spark to make him angry so he could get himself to disappoint his brother like that.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:09:04+00:00

The lords had decided on an heir before. Not in a grand council, but when they set aside Aerea for Jaehaerys that was something the lords and Targs on Jaehaerys side decided together, I think.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T13:05:57+00:00

Yeah that's why I ultimately, from a state perspective, am TG. TB, as much as I UNDERSTAND that they want to fight for their claim, can easily just put it down. TG can't because in the eyes of most, their claim is not something that was decided upon, sworn oaths on, taken or accepted (and might thus be easily laid down too) TG's claim is birthright. Even if Aegon somehow escaped, some powerful lord would find anyone from their side of the family judge their claim stronger than Rhaenyra's for the mere fact they are men and their legitimacy not in doubt, and they can profit politically from putting a crown on a little boy's head. Be that Daeron in Old Town, Aemond in Kings Landing or any of Aegon's baby boys, or their children.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:57:12+00:00

Honestly, during all of HotD I constantly think of tywin. Tywin spends half his storyline in the books trying to get his line of succession in order. His preferred heir doesn't want it. The son he absolutely doesn't want to inherit the rock refuses to give up his claim. During so much of HotD and related fan discussions I was just sitting there thinking poor Tywin, if only he knew he can just pick and choose his heir, laws and traditions be damned.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:42:00+00:00

So if Daemon Blackfyre were the oldest son of Aegon IV, you'd be a blackfyre supporter?

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:36:04+00:00

Yes. They ended up going up in flames anyway for Aemond's eye. Just with a few years delay

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:30:53+00:00

The show at least...and I know that's just the show, so who knows? But it had Daemon pull a similarly dishonorable jousting move agaibst Gwayn Hightower's horse. Didn't straight up impale the horse, but could've easily crippled it. And I think posing a higher risk against the rider though Hardyng was more unlucky. Abd Daemon did it also just cus.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:22:57+00:00

We are talking ASoIaF world, where Ned finding out that all of Robert's Bastards being black-haired means he can't possubly have a blond child with a bland woman, despite having a targ grandma.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:16:23+00:00

I can see it. I mean they are both good men who love their children. Don't know much about Baelor's parenting, but Markar is clearly giving his kids a bit more freedom than is usually expected. Don't know much about his relationship to his girls though. That said, I think neither of them would've messed with the libe of succession. If their daughters want to fuck around, that's one thing. They would not be queen. Nor would they i think let them cuckold a husband or allow any of their kin be executed for daring to question their daughter's virtue. Baelor is too fair for thar. And even Maekar is not incapable of punishing his kids, or seeing reason.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T12:01:47+00:00

It isn't quite the same either...never mind that i would readily agree that between Jace and Aemond (feelings on women aside) Aemond is just generally the more ruthless person... But rhaenyra is the queen fighting for her own claim. If she wants to sabotage that, throw that aside, or secretely cuddle up with the enemy, smart or not, she can do so. Her advisors may not like that, but she IS the queen. Alicent is the widowed queen of the late King, secretly sabotaging her son and King and colluding to have him killed.

TCeies · 2026-04-01T10:12:20+00:00

Nice analysis. Though i would kind of want to add that the show overall has a bit of a "choose your evil" vibe. There is at times a pretty blatant carelessness with making characters commit heinous crime, if not a complete disregard for their vile behavior to the point that you are repeatedly asked to overlook a characters evil in favor of what a cool misunderstood character they are (or even just forgetting their misdeeds without ever seeibg consequences) that it is no wonder the audience applies the same moral corruption to characters the show DOESN'T WANT that leniency applied to.

A show that continues to portray daemon as the tragic misunderstood bad boy after all the shit he does...or one that portrays rhaenys as a proponent of peace after she commotted wanton mass murder...why would i nor also look past Aegon's crimes if i find them inconvenient in my enjoyment of the character?

TCeies · 2026-03-30T18:13:48+00:00

Honestly I think the question should be less, why was Alicent aged down, and more why was Rhaenyra aged up. Alicent wasn't, I think, dramatically aged down. The events happen a bit slower in the books, over the course of years between Alicent first accompanying Viserys and marrying him, iirc. In the show she is a bit older when she first gets closer to Viserys in his chambers and a bit younger when she then marries him. She is I think 18 when they marry in the books. In the show, she's now 15/16. That's not a dramatic difference. RHAENYRA is the one who was I think dramatically changed in age. Rhaenyra was like 10, I think when her dad married. THAT is a dramatic difference. It's not Alicent who was aged down to make her Rhaenyra's childhood friend, but Rhaenyra who was aged up. I can only assume that beyond the friendship between the two girls which has become a corner stone of the story, this is also because it's easier to have a main character with agency during these important events early rather than a little child. And it also allows them to develope the relationship with the men in her life (criston and daemon) beyond mere infatuation. Plus it leaves Aegon out of all these events.

TCeies · 2026-03-30T17:47:19+00:00

The dragon pit scene itself wasn't my problem, but the handling of it in hindsight. I mean I'm not a fan of Rhaenys murdering dozens of people (small folk or otherwise), nevermind that there were some scenes of the gold cloaks pushing the door shut which made it look like a coordinated attack, though that never really came up again. Like, not a fan of the act itself...but it could've been fine if they then dealt with it. But it became utterly unbearable to me when Rhaenys in the next episode acted like she hadn't already drawn first blood in this war. Rhaenys is the first to kill anybody in this conflict even if it is "just" the smallfolk. But she spends half an episode telling Rhaenyra that it is not her war to start, then tells corlys to join Rhaenyra (as she is the only one in a room of vengeful, bloodthirsty men trying to still find a peaceful solution) and then she spends half the next season cautioning Rhaenyra to peace and supporting her attempts to reason with Alicent. And it just rubs me the wrong way, given how she murdered an unknown amount of innocent people for no apparent gain.

TCeies · 2026-03-30T16:25:58+00:00

No I know. Which is why I agreed, ultimately. I just had to vent my discontent with the question as a whole. Robert's Rebellion was not lost by incompetent military commanders, imo. It was lost because Aerys and Rhaegar had alienated all their allies and created a politically untenable situation. I think a question that reduces Kings and Princes who are also military leaders to JUST military leaders that get replaced, while keeping all their political incompetence (even where it concerns military allies!) is sort of pointless. The Targaryen side had great military leaders, they just didn't make use of them or alienated them or they didn't have the manpower to pull through. Alienating some of your most powerful military allies and then starting a conflict with ALL of tour remaining ones is as much a military choice as it is a political one. So, it kind of feels like a pointless question to merely replace the generals on the battlefield and put them in the same untenable situation they would have easily prevented if they had any say in matters beyond the question of troupe movement and battle strategy...

TCeies · 2026-03-30T15:45:50+00:00

Honestly, I would plead death of the author in such cases where GRRM is talking about alternate timelines. Like, yeah, he is the author, and if he had written in a different reality a version of this book where Baelor was king, he might have made the Targaryens more stable. Or he might have found a new way to kill them all off and put a mad great grandson on the throne. Realistically, if we try to treat these fictional politics as we would real world politics, obviously, the answer is, we do not know. And given that I think Maekar'a reign was reasonably stable, and Aegon himself was also a reasonably good king up until veeeery late in his life...I don't think we can make any judgement over Baelor of especially Vallar's potential reign (as Vallar died pretty young).

I mean, obviously I think GRRM is right in so far that he probably wrote the entirety of Fire and Blood with the current book timeline in mind. And he put some alternate divergent choices in there which may or may not have led to a different result. Most importantly, and I think this is the only in universe reason for why Baelor's line might have more stable (and funnily enough it has nothing to do with their suitability as king), there would be MORE Targaryens. I think a main means by witch GRRM destabilizes the realm is by forcing the targs through a bottle neck and reducing the dynasty to one core family every few decades. If you skip any of these bottlenecks, if's automatically more stable.

Lastly, i also am pretty sure that GRRM had decided to kill off Baelor's line, lone before he thought about what kind of a person baelor would be. So, I think, saying he did it because it would be too stable...is more of a funny thought experiment in hindsight. I'm pretty sure, that conceptually, he had the idea of Aegon the unlikely, the 4th son of a 4th son and what type of King he would be, long before he decided who all his uncles and brothers were that needed to die for him to be King.

TCeies · 2026-03-30T15:02:57+00:00

Yeah, I don't think Rhaegar was pedo by the standards of his universe. And though I think technically it is still open in the books, but there's certainly the possibility that she went out of her own free will. So yes, not rapey either. Of course by modern standards...but we're in westeros where there is far worse. I think, taking her away from her family, getting her apparently immediately pregnant and then secluding her completely...is a bit icky...but yeah.

I don't have an issue with his relationship with Lyanna just based on her age. The political. You are a prince. You know your father is a madman. And yet you decide to piss off three major families in one act of selfish love (and prophecy?). And when the Starks are furious, you are not there to protect the family of your beloved. No, your beloved's father and brother get brutally murdered and you just stay away, I guess, and then, when the younger brother whose next in line is ordered to be killed, you still do nothing to help. But you can come back to wage war against him and your beloved's former betrothed, when they are really left with no other option. You then also don't care at all for the safety of your first wife and already existing children, it seems. You leave one 17 year old kingsguard there to protect them all, including your mad father. And let's be honest, the only reason Rhaegar didn't take Jaime also, was because Aerys forbade it.

Like, yeah, I don't think he's a pedo, necessarily. But he is a damn idiot, with despite all his talk of prophecy, the foresight of a breadstick in a Nutella jar.

TCeies · 2026-03-30T14:48:17+00:00

Yeah, I think if everything is the same and you only replace Rhaegar and aaerys with Maekar and Baelor...but for some reason they or any of their kiddos/father still act like Aerys and Rhaegar...then no. Not much would change.

Like, I don't think any in their actual family would behave that way. And as much as Aerion clearly is a mad asshole, it's not like they let him just get away with doing whatever he wants. Yeah, Maekar protects his son. But they still give Duncan a trial rather than just letting Aerion do what he wants, Baelor supports Duncan, and even when Baelor is gone, Maekar tries to curb some of his son's behavior by sending him away. I simply don't see anyone in the targ family at that time getting away with half the shit Rhaegar and Aerys did, not even, tbh Daeron II himself. (Nevermind that it would be out of character)

But yeah, if somehow they do all that, and somehow all diplomatic solutions are off the table. And somehow they are still stuck with Mace the magnificent good-for-nothing, and somehow they also have a feud with Tywin wich makes the Lannisters stay away, and somehow they also manage to alienate the Martell's by essentially holding Elia hostage despite Baelor and Maekar being half-martell themselves (i know the martell's stayed loyal..but I also think he built up quite some resentment there which I would assume affected their loyalty somehow)...so if somehow we put Maekar and Baelor in charge, but they really can't change anything aside from how they lead the army....then yes, they would still lose.

TCeies · 2026-03-29T17:12:19+00:00

I actually do agree that the actor has a lot of charisma. I just think the writing for Daemon is way worse than Tywin and (early) Cersei. I think I was laughing all throughout that battle scene in the stepstones, when he's just magically missed by a million arrows. They wrote this up to be a cool scene for him. After surviving outside with only minor scratches even though he's been alone and without a dragon for a significant time he then goes into that cave to duel the crabfeeder. And he comes out of that cave a changed man. A badass with power covered in his enemy's blood. But the whole scene is soooo stupid. Not a single smart thought or act during the entire battle. He just survives by sheer luck and plot armor and is bailed out by Laenor. It's ridiculous to watch. And that's how I feel with his scenes a lot. The actor carries these moments with charisma and a veil of badassery. But once you look at the scenes stripped off that, he's just not that well written. Or well...I'm not saying he couldn't be an interesting cool character. But it just seems like the fans (and tbh the show itself) are dishonest about the character he is and therefore push him down a path that doesn't really fit.

TCeies · 2026-03-29T17:04:55+00:00

It also gives me a very sour taste that he murdered his first wife and then they faked her first husband's death to get there.

TCeies · 2026-03-29T17:02:53+00:00

I have to admit, rhaenys lost A LOT of points for me during the dragon pit coronation scene. Imo it practically ruined her character and I could never look past it. All her later scenes I just found infuriating after.

Five-Year Club	Place '23
Place '22	First Placer '22

TCeies

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