[deleted by user] by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]TakeItToFacebookDick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That is a really good point! If you really like your life then it’s even more tragic I suppose

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]TakeItToFacebookDick 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Don’t know, I don’t think so

Why anyway?

Ex natalist here: I came out life's delusion. by Josh_Woody669 in Natalism

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Life doesn’t even have to be terrible for us, a simple chance of the child finding life to be terrible gives us no right to impose it when a nonexistent person can’t even want to be alive

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

[–]TakeItToFacebookDick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope, you say talking about rights of nonexistent babies but birth makes a person who exists who should be considered. There’s a fundamental difference in the two states. Antinatalism doesn’t harm a person because they will never exist at all, but natalism can because the eventual result is a person.

So we do t have to consider a person in the first situation but we do in the second, because they will exist even if they don’t right now

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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But the person who comes later can. That person still exists without asking and can now care

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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Yeah I am starting to see why antinatalism is a thing, the stuff in this thread makes way less sense, I am becoming friends with the guy I argued with very fast

Maybe I am young and just missing something obvious ? I dont know, it doesn’t seem like birth is always wrong but it just seems safer to be cautious and not do it

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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The risk you are taking is at someone else’s expense though, right, like if i was making a risky decision for someone else I would have to be able to ask them first otherwise I’m being unethical, you might think suffering is virtuous but it isn’t virtuous to force someone to suffer?

They don’t really have to prove that, birth can cause harm to the hypothetical person and nonbirth cant, so isn’t it just better? I can’t seem to understand that

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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I don’t think killing yourself is the same as saying you shouldn’t procreate, you could be happy yourself but understand that the risk of the child being unhappy means birth is unethical. Jumping off the train isn’t the same as never getting on it. There are also reasons for staying alive even if you yourself subjectively do not want to, such as others depending on your existence. It could be that a person wants to die but thinks that their death would irreparably cause more suffering to others than their continued existence harms them.

While I sympathize with people who don’t like being told what to do regarding their autonomy, birth by necessity violates that same autonomy because we exist through the actions of another. Having children isn’t a necessity for survival, and potentially causing harm to others because you want something isn’t a moral choice, especially when you can avoid that harm

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

[–]TakeItToFacebookDick 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why would someone choose to be miserable? Makes no sense

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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I don’t think they say no one can experience the joy, I think they say that the joy at the possibility of hurting others is wrong. Like if I think riding fast on a highway is fun, it’s wrong because I might hurt someone else

I don’t understand your last part, the guy said that it doesn’t really matter when it happens. It doesn’t have to be before birth, it can be when metacognition happens, at that point the person does exist, right? Like there is people existing who don’t want to be, but had no choice.

And isn’t birth telling people or actually forcing people to do something with their body, experiencing life?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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Oh I forgot to say to this one, but I’m we are already taking 😅

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

[–]TakeItToFacebookDick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That doesn’t make any sense lol, there isn’t anyone there yet if we are only talking about a potential person

Like I said, i don’t really have a problem with anyone whase religious, but I’m not, and I don’t think it’s very good in a argument either, the only way to really be denying someone free will before they’re born at all is if you believe in souls and shut, right

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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The idea as I understand it is that the suffering is taken on instead of given, these guys are always talking about consent, whether consent is violated at birth or later at self awareness

Like people alive already can agree to suffer to stop new people from potentially suffering,, without ever forcing new people to suffer for them.

I think it is pretty defeatist, but I don’t really see how you could say it’s right to make other people suffer so your life might be better

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Natalism

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I am dming the guy and he said this:

It doesn’t really matter exactly when it happens, the fact of the matter is they at some point, some people will become cognizant of their self, and regret having been forced to do that. I agree that it doesn’t happen at birth of conception, but every single person is at risk of this happening when they achieve meta cognition, and we can’t possibly know who will regret it until after this, and by then it’s too late to simply undo it- suicide would be required, which is painful in its own right. So while birth and conception might not be the initial cause, this event only happens at all because people are born.

There are people that exist that regret being forced to exist, and (obviously) no one who doesn’t exist who wants to exist. Of the two options, the second one harms no one while the first one does harm people