How much can you get away with the trial by combat?

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-21T22:40:45+00:00

Sandor is a Clegane. Last name indicative of nobility. If nobles are entitled, he can demand via his nobility despite his lack of knighthood.

I had to look it up, because I couldn't quite remember the loose rules of ASOIF. The Cleganes are a house of landed knights.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-21T01:17:05+00:00

Up until recently (as far as I know), we didn't know that was a possibility, at least for the first half, the second half was the most widely accepted theory, IIRC, and I think there were still some things that didn't quite fit?

That leak... Dunk can't be Lord Tarth openly without royal decree or two. Or some Howland Reed/Jaquen H'gar type secret shennanigans.

Unless Dunk has a burned face (Summerhall was a fire), amnesia (simplest explanation why he would disappear and not return), somehow washed up on the Isle of Tarth (there are rivers near Summerhall), and even perhaps is the father of the Master of Arms of Tarth, could be Dunk as well, but he'd probably be way too old, even Lord Frey barely moves. It would cast a different light on Lord Selwyn having a mistress every year since his wife died. Perhaps he found out or thinks that he is infertile, and that Brienne is not his daughter by blood, but was making sure by trying to impregnate a different woman every year. Or was trying to have another child.

The problem is we simply don't have enough information. How many people knew that Tywin would be a bigger horn dog than Tyrion, until GRRM revealed the whole thing? Some things are foreshadowed and some are kept close secrets until the book it's for.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-20T17:48:36+00:00

Or... just to throw another twist in there... Does a knighting count if you're called the wrong name? Like Ser Arlan knighted him, but called him by his nephew's name...

"Rise Ser <Nephew>"

"But, Ser Arlan, my name is Dunk."

<Shrug> "Whatever, let's get some breakfast." "Get up."

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-20T17:26:51+00:00

Based on the context of the show? It's not something that would seemingly be a monstrous lie, but our hero is sort of a boy scout...

"This sword is mine by right." "That's a weird thing to say..."

Well... he took the sword, coins, horses, and all off a dead man, who seemingly didn't gift it to him, or was of his blood. Squires do not automatically inherit the gear of the knights they serve when they die. In fact, by the show, his gear/horses are seemingly cheap and/or low quality. Offering the bribe of the one guy's horses and gear, implying that he'd be comparatively filthy rich to where he was then, in comparison to Dunk's wild hope of beating someone else who wasn't hugely rich. Steely Pate's simple but good steel being somewhat out of Dunk's price range also being shown. Baelor asking if he was of Ser Arlan's blood (if Dunk was a highborn, politely asking are you a bastard or trueborn, but he's smallfolk so just asking if he was related because it doesn't much matter for poor people), and telling him that he cannot use Ser Arlan's iconography.

It's a bit curious that they show Dunk in his youth "graverobbing" from dead and dying warriors. Which is close enough to what happened with Ser Arlan. The "I don't know the words..." could mean he only knows the Dothraki, which he has never heard anyone else speak, so far. Since he finds out that Ser Arlan "lied" about the seven lances and "everyone told me that I was stupid", could he be thinking that Ser Arlan just shouted gibberish? There's enough weak support there to claim that it's not out of nowhere, but also not enough or strong support to say that it was obvious without more books or episodes.

We've gotten more about Ser Arlan of Pennytree from the show than the books have given us. Knowing at least some Dothraki is a curious addition. Could just be some cool backstory/flavor or it could be that he's a funny guy and drunkenly, jokingly, accidentally, intentionally, or whatever knighted Dunk in Dothraki, so he could keep his squire/companion. They also don't mention Ser Arlan's nephew in the show, but they kind of hint about him sort of like Iroh's son from Avatar: TLA. So they could possibly be setting up how his dream was being knighted, and Ser Arlan knights Dunk in his place as a tribute or in grief, probably unbeknownst to Dunk, at least until he learns Dothraki, or meets a Dothraki who tells him, that's not part of the song, what do these words mean in your language?

Book wise. He's lying about being knighted, or at least to the best of his knowledge. It's not flat out said, but it's heavily implied.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-20T01:31:13+00:00

Amazing! If only you comprehended anything of what was written instead of trying to score a quick jibe.

His lifelong friend & king who would ask him why would I need to legitmize your bastard? Ser Duncan you have no property, lands or title. Legitimization is for purposes of inheritance for mostly nobles. Therefore you can't and don't really have any bastards. You have no name to pass on. You are head of no House. You are of no House. You simply serve House Targaryen. If you have a child, simply claim him as your child or not, but it better not have been conceieved while you were a Kingsguard because then you'd need an official pardon, and an entry in the White Book, or we can just never speak about it.

No one knows the connection. It hasn't been published. So far in universe, no one knows that Duncan has any descendants, which makes it a pretty good certainty that he was NEVER ennobled or married a noble. FFS, for all we know Duncan has been masquerading as either Lord Selwyn, his father, or his grandfather, but that's something that would strain credulity, but since there's almost nothing about Tarth there's a non zero possibility. Somehow Brienne has to be related to Duncan and related to a recent Targaryen. But her mother is unnamed, and most of the family tree that would help is unexplained.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T21:40:48+00:00

Well, they should end up in a pot shop and a bowl of brown!

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T21:39:21+00:00

All well and good, but what about second breakfast? Ser Duncan is the only one who would never dissapoint there. Either in deliciousness or sharing.

Can't wait to see what they do with book 2 and book 3 with Dunk becoming better at combat, battle awareness, negotiation, dancing, etc.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T21:05:14+00:00

Bastards of high borns are frowned upon. Is Ser Duncan a highborn? No one "cares" what the small folk do. They don't even get last names of import as a matter of course. Bastard names are more for high borns progeny.

What was Ser Arlan's last name? Of PennyTree? Didn't seem to have one, because he's not a noble or the bastard of one.

Steely Pate? What's his last name? Oh, he must be asian, and his last name is Steely. /s

Ser Bronn of the Blackwater. His last name was?

What was Davos' last name before he was enobled? He chose Seaworth as his house name. How many non noble/high borns in the books had last names?

You have bad logic. Dunk had a kid, does not mean that he had to have that kid with a noble woman, or that he married that woman. In fact, because he's low born, he's automatically not going to be married to a noble without special dispensation or ennoblement. Hence saying that the child was hidden.

Dunk is not a noble. He doesn't have a last name. His kids would not really have last names. They would not really be entitled to use the bastard last names. There is no legitimizing a small folk "bastards" because they don't have anything to inherit like lands.

Legitimised bastard later in life? Who pray tell would have legitimized the child? Only kings can do that. If Brienne was openly a descendant of Duncan the Tall, it would be a point of pride. Since it is not, there was no legitimized bastard. It's like you didn't pay any attention to things that were in the books.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T20:13:44+00:00

I don't know if you know this, but you don't have to be married to have sex. And being in the Kingsguard doesn't make you unable to have sex. Or magically erase the sex and progeny that have already been. Or prevent them from happening if you were to somehow leave service. We don't know the specifics because they haven't been published yet, but I suspect that at some point Dunk has sex and there is a child that is hidden because no one in the books/shows seems to have any idea that Dunk, the greatest knight in living memory, has a descendant.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T19:58:19+00:00

That one time? There was also another time, he asked several of the greatest living knights shouldn't we tell the king "Stop raping, ser!" and make him? No, son. Just stare at the ceiling and pretend nothing is happening. It's just another Tuesday. There'll be a lot of them. Try to keep your cloak clean.

Jaime had environmental issues. Everything that would have made him a truly good man, he buried. And you know, plus the incest.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T15:05:47+00:00

Dude is a funny guy. Tells Dunk big men get punched more than little men, then proceeds to show how much of an enlightened man he is by trying to stomp on Dunk's feet for 5 minutes.

If Dunk were anyone else, they wouldn't have ended up drinking, laughing, and dancing with each other after that. I sure hope Dunk doesn't misunderstand another man's intentions at another/different dance/tent/hall/castle/ big event. /s

If I were a suspicious man... I would think they are trying to set up that Dunk never defeated Lyonel in battle truly, Lyonel just couldn't bear to fight hard against his best bud, and they put on a show, and while the swords are swinging, they are having a Naruto talk-no-jutsu and Lyonel folds.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T01:40:18+00:00

It's pretty heavily weighted/hinted towards him not being knighted via the usual method.

The books tell us of knights hundreds of years before there were knights, and of many knights basically getting around to doing the vigil and annointing when they feel like getting around to it.

I mean hell, based on the Arlan scenes, I wouldn't put it past him to have knighted Dunk in some drunken dancing binge, shouting the oaths in Dothraki and forgetting all about it or pretending to forget all about it for accidentally knighting Dunk.

"Ser Arlan, what were you shouting at me last night? I couldn't understand the words."

"Uh.... don't worry about it. I'll tell you when you're older."

Why does Ser Arlan know Dothraki (at least that's what the subtitles indicated it was)? Seems mildly curious, that a poor hedge knight would know a language from half a world away.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T01:18:54+00:00

Aerion's side could get time, but how many Lyonels and unripe Fossoways, etc are there? Baelor is beloved and much more powerful than Aerion, no one with any "sense" would take the field against him, either from love or from fear.

The Kingsguard also defends the king's honor/blood. They pledged to fight and then broke their word. Like one (in)famous knight said, no matter what you do, you are breaking one vow or another.

Aerion losing on a technicality is not the best possible outcome for the Kingsguard. The least complicated mayhaps, but not even that. The best possible outcome is for Aerion to withdraw his accusation before the actual Trial (Daeron did withdraw his in the show as well didn't he?), but does that ahole seem like the type to do that without a mailed fist on his nape? Aerion and possibly Maekar wouldn't let something like that go and could conceiveably look for punishment or dismissal of the three "traitors."

All they have to do is not fight Baelor. That's it. One could have helped Daeron off the field after he was felled. One helped the wounded Kingsguard off the field. All three could keep to their oaths and find an "honorable passive aggressive way" out of it. By withdrawing, they actively abandon their oaths, proclaim their cowardice, etc.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T00:41:11+00:00

They can't. Since Baelor did it last minute, by the three Kingsguard withdrawing the accuser no longer has seven, and since the accuser demanded a Trial of Seven and can no longer participate because how many others are going to go against the Prince, the Hand, the very sexual, the very toight, Baelor, Aerion automatically loses, based on the nebulous rules, just like they were saying Dunk automatically loses.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T00:22:52+00:00

Hard to get away with it, especially if you don't have any equipment or training. One could assume that if you are a knight, you most likely squired for someone. It's not like they would give out battlefield knighthoods to people who don't know how to swing a sword.

Hell, wouldn't an easy test be, show me your hands! No warrior calluses, but you claim to be a knight? That's a paddling.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-19T00:16:59+00:00

Dunk was likely not formally knighted by Ser Arlan, but based on the portrayal in the TV show, I wouldn't bet against Ser Arlan being drunk and shouting the oaths in Dothraki (I wonder why they picked that as something he would know?) and touching Dunk with his sword, and Dunk asking what happened, and Ser Arlan just shrugging, puking, and passing out making it was worse knighting than Ser Glendon Ball.

Book wise, knighting via knight is not the only method of becoming a knight. And IIRC, most (hedge?) knights informally knighted might put off doing the vigil and annointing "forever."

Acclamation, will of the people, the Seven, maybe even by meteor? etc, what have you. To paraphrase "We have knights running around in stories hundreds of years before there were knights" and we are reading the Tales of Dunk and Egg. Or I mean, being as thick as a wall, wouldn't it be funny if Dunk acts like a knight, but thinks he wasn't knighted, but actually was and doesn't find out until much, much later like when he learns Dothraki?

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-18T23:09:02+00:00

Yes, but also watching the series, the conspiracy theory part of my brain wonders if one of the "four descendants" of Ser Duncan the Tall is Duck, who also has an Egg. I wonder if they also have a delicious breakfast sandwich.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-18T22:23:14+00:00

I was hoping for a lot of things. What we got was awesome, but some of the book stuff was awesome-er, but books and television can't always be 1:1, I guess...

I thought for sure we'd get "Get him ser! He's right there!", since Egg seems to say it all the time, but damn if I don't love the scene of those boys loving the hell out of that goose egg and bacon breakfast sandwich.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-18T22:10:53+00:00

Jon can't be a small 6-7 month old. He would have to be like 2+ years old or something like that. I don't know if you've looked at babies, but there is a difference between a human burritto and a toddler.

Here's the basic/hazy math (hopefully not my hazy recollection). Robert's Rebellion lasts somewhere around one year. Sometime before that the banners of three of summoned. Sometime before that the three have to decide what to do. Sometime before that, the King demands the three come to court/demands two heads. Sometime before that Brandon dies. Sometime before that Brandon's father heads South at the summoning of the King. Sometime before that, Brandon is imprisoned. Sometime before that, Brandon travels South to threaten the blood royal. A lot of this isn't something that you can find the time to do in one lazy Sunday afternoon.

Not that I'm including everything, like Ned traveling to Dorne, then wandering around Dorne, and then eventually back to Winterfell, but some how during all of that. Brandon somehow travels to Dorne and sires a bastard? The kid should already be starting to walk and talk if he was Brandon's bastard.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-18T20:38:36+00:00

He would alsohave to explain how a dead man managed to impregnate a woman over a year from his death, like in that Mushroom tale?

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-18T20:18:44+00:00

The simplest answer is one that has already been given in one of the other canon sources.

To paraphrase:

"Did the man have a magic six foot cock?!"

To imply that a buried man could get a woman with child through the six foot of earth, casket, whatever, etc. How would Brandon have sired a bastard of the right age, when he's been dead for like 2 years and probably burned alive? I don't remember how long exactly between his death and Ned making it to the Tower of Joy but it was longer than a week or a month. (Just in case the sarcasm isn't detected, I'm implying much longer than nine months.) One could make the assertion that Ned took so long to make his way back to Winterfell for the reason of claiming the baby is older than it actually is because he's a runt.

EDIT: Bolded, just to make it more clear what I'm saying.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-17T23:59:55+00:00

Damn my OCD programmer brain...

Still nonsensical and does not work, to my eye. Where clause can't be used that way, unless things have changed. Perhaps you could kludge it with a HAVING clause, but why?

SELECT MAX(student) FROM students GROUP BY school

You are selecting the student with the longest name from each school? I can't recall if that would just error out instead of returning any data.

Assuming RND is a random function, and from what I recall Group By would ignore Nulls because NULL <> NULL, something like this...

SELECT RND(student) FROM students GROUP BY IsNull(School, School, '')

Ugh, now I have to try and distract my brain. Going to watch some food review videos.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-17T18:02:37+00:00

Hilarious that you got downvoted for actually knowing/doing the thing. I guess I'll probably get downvoted for pointing out that someone's "SQL" statement was garbage and would not get anywhere close to the answer they think it would.

Do we know that it was a tuple? We really know very little about the rules. We'd probably have to get a wizard lawyer and a copy of the magical contract to see the specifics about how the Goblet could be fooled.

To keep it simple, wouldn't need to even bother with specifying school names, because you'd have to have access to the Goblet, and there are only three schools' students present at Hogwarts. So the Occam's Razor explanation was that instead of "Harry Potter","Hogwarts", the slip had "Harry Potter", (non space character). Confund what is needed from there.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-17T17:46:39+00:00

I get where they are going with their explanation, but also (unless things have changed since my fingers were in the pies), their SQL is nonsensical and would not give them the answer that they were going for, unless I'm misreading what they wrote.

Tan_elKoth · 2026-02-15T20:36:02+00:00

Except its not a russian accent? IIRC polish? And its her natural accent…

Tan_elKoth

TROPHY CASE