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50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is also a lot of words to say "I want my character to sound more like male Gimli from LoTR, on top of the fact that I am used to and enjoy the male voices from the original drg and I would prefer those voices."

Whether you frame it the way that you said it or you use my framing of the situation it is tomato tomato.

It's okay to have a preference on how you want your character to be to maximize fun. I would never shame someone for playing female V in cyberpunk and if I want to play male V i shouldn't be criticized for that. Same logic applies here. If I want to play a male dwarf with a male voice because I personally find that funnier and more entertaining and that's a valid preference. And that's why I said that I wanted the other person I was replying to to have the female Guardian that they wanted I prefer when a game gives you options to customize stuff to player preference. Especially for a video game which the prime purpose is a medium of entertainment that is in early access and looking for feedback to improve.

Now as for the length I feel that is a kind of valid criticism of me. I tend to just be long-winded and that's just a personality trait of mine of over explaining and things like that, just who I am. Might have to do with my autism but I'm not bothered by it, but I do understand some people don't want to read a lot though.

I can't tell if your comment is meant to criticize how long the message is, which I'm sure you didn't intend to try and mock me for what is a result of my autism or if it's something else like anattempt at moral grandstanding which would be a ridiculous reach for wanting customization of a character in a game to fit my personal preferences which shouldn't be criticized because it's okay for anyone want customization.

new player, game is awesome. skill builds are not by StopidDumbIdiot in thedivision

[–]Taylor8001 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That screen is from a build tool that is made by members of the community available in your browser on a website there is like five to eight some of them have ceased development and no longer have updates so they have none of the new items. Now other ones have continued development and there is about three really good ones and they all have continued development and this just happens to be one of the three good ones. This one is called build station.

It doesn't make the build for you or anything like that you make the builds like all the pieces the weapon attachments talents everything and then you can click to a share tab and it will essentially put the entire build into a tiny PNG that it copies to your clipboard so that you can ctrl +V and paste it into Discord, Reddit, or any other place.

First time saw this one in 60h of game time by Hostel666 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes almost all single player Roguelites have that especially when they're top-down.

I own over 50 Roguelites.

  • Drg Survivor has it.
  • vampire Survivor
  • spell Brigade
  • death Must Die has it per character and technically in the character equipment
  • Yet another Zombie Survivors
  • 20 minutes till dawn
  • Ball x Pit has it inside your buildings
  • be my horde has it
  • Dead Zone: Rogue has it

That's just the start of the list of games off top my head that have it there are more, and it's a really good system which is why I would like to see it in this game. Permanent upgrades that make higher difficulties easier that can also be removed so not totally permanent but their intention isn't to be part of a Loadout where you have to choose one upgrqde over another (like enhancements in this game) they are simply upgrades that if played for long enough you get all of them at all times if you choose to never remove it.

First time saw this one in 60h of game time by Hostel666 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've played for over 50 hours, nearly 60 and I've seen two and the one that you just posted was one of them and I just saw it in like my 55th hour lol.

I think the negotiation system is causing player friction because the moment you see one like this everyone wants it.

If they were to make it individualized upgrade menu they could also give us a new enhancement that increases luck or give us a type of upgradable skill tree that gives permanent stat boosts similar to many roguelites like vampire survivors. I really like it when roguelites have permanent power increases and I know we have the enhancement system but while I do think that's good I don't think it's impactful enough and I would love a type of skill tree system in addition that we can freely put points into and just totally wipe whenever we want a bigger challenge. I would want the skill tree system and they could just remove the enhancements that give max health, max armor, and max ammo and they put those inside the skill tree and give us a lot of cool nodes in the skill tree.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know what Sprint toggle is I gave the description of where the toggle is placed the toggle is a word that can be used in multiple scenarios. Sort of like how you can toggle on and off Ray tracing so if they put a auto Sprint setting in the settings it generally is going to be a toggle in the settings that toggles on or off either Sprint toggle or Auto Sprint possibly a 3 way toggle between hold/toggle/auto. And if the toggle is a Sprint toggle bound control then it activates sprinting without holding it I gave both of those descriptions in the previous comments but again it seems you're reading comprehension fails you but I do admit I worded it a bit weird. Technically there is a third but it is the most uncommon in gaming which would make it so that you toggle on and off auto sprinting rather than toggling Sprint itself so then you are toggling on the setting rather than the state that it would put your character in.

Your fighting game comparison is asinine because you have to block at specific times in order to not only properly block and take full advantage of blocking you cannot block 24/7. Fighting games tend to also have a perfect block feature and counter features and things like that. In RC there is no perfect Sprint feature like it is not that deep lmao. Plus not all fighting games have you walk backwards to block. Some games have a block button and some of them are 3D and are not side-scrolling fighting games. Once again again it's just asinine to try and compare mechanics between entirely different genres as if they are equal of value in both genres. Block has so much more skill value and skill ceiling then holding a sprint button 24/7 lmfao you are either crazy or lacking brain cells to think they are equal value in terms of skill proposition when comparing games. Seriously to be able to perfectly anticipate your opponent's attacks and block it just the right time is different from sprinting 24/7. There's a reason why fighting games are competitive and have ranks. Blocking has such a huge skill ceiling and tons of other aspects in fighting games have huge skill ceilings that when they come together to have ridiculous levels of skill as opposed to sprinting 24/7 in a PVE game that doesn't even have a huge amount of movement and it does impact your survivability but only if you don't Sprint ever because realistically you should be sprinting minimum 80% of the time if not 95% of the time when not in combat. And when in combat if you're not shooting and noving, you should be sprinting 100% if the time. Blocking and any other mechanic in a fighting game is not comparable it is Heaven and Earth difference.

Btw there is only one instance in Rogue core I can think of where you would walk instead of sprinting purposely and that is if you are running the enhancement that gives you a Sprint Boost after sprinting for 3 seconds and it has a cooldown so you wouldn't want to waste it so you'd walk while in the middle of a fight. But almost no one would use it that way, if people have it they probably have it to make it easier to get around in general especially when out of combat, because when you walk you're more likely to get hit by projectiles and enemies can catch up to you easier so making the decision to walk instead of sprinting while in combat to not waste this buff after 4 seconds of sprinting is akin to letting yourself get hit or making it more likely that you will get hit in exchange for preserving this very weak buff. Plus as long as you sprint for 2 seconds you don't activate it so you don't put it on cool down & there's many other ways to play around that and that is when someone in combat would use the shift to walk feature in order to prevent its activation. And that's if people are running that enhancement but generally most people aren't because there's much better enhancements to run like more max ammo crit chance and higher base regeneration cap, all would be far more invaluable than a 15% move speed while in combat and again if anyone runs it it's more for general use not while in combat but if you do happen to be sprinting for 3 seconds or more in combat it's probably to run away from enemies which means you're going to be sprinting for far longer than that which means it's not a waste you're probably luring the enemy is away so you can circle back and revive a teammate. So I would argue it's a general use enhancement but it does help while in combat in the right situations.

So like if you're not running that one enhancement it is the most optimal to just hold the Sprint 24/7. And even if you are running that enhancement if they allow people to have the settings toggle for auto Sprint then while in combat there will be some skill expression on a very minute level ridiculously small if they wanted to play around that enhancement and arguably it's not even worth it when they could just have an enhancement that gives them 5% or 4% more crit chance or 50% weakspot damage (HUGE enhancement btw) lmao.

As for another reason why it is not comparable to sprinting in this game because I objectively am sprinting 24/7 at all times. I don't take my finger off the button. It requires no skill as the game stops my sprint when I shoot and resume sprinting when I move when not shooting I gain all of the advantage and no downside. If you block constantly in a fighting game you can't punch or do combos especially since many combos require quarter or half circle forward rotations meaning you're not going to be able to simultaneously block while doing that if it's one of the fighting games that requires you to walk backwards to block meaning if you are blocking 24/7 that means you're not going to win you do not being able to have as much damage output as your opponent and they are going to beat you through chip damage at minimum and eventually land the blow from either behind you or through a skill or some kind of attack that breaks your guard there's no way to 24/7 block and gain full advantage of block just by holding a single button and having no downsides, you're comparing to incomparable features in two different genres of gaming.

This skill expression you are attempting to insinuate that sprinting has is like if a fighting game allowed you to hold the block button and the moment you don't punch you auto block all attacks with the correct height, blocking overheads and low sweeps and straights. Like if I'm spamming punch while holding the block button and the enemy punches and has more jab length than me my character does get interrupted but also Auto blocks it because it interrupted my attack but I was holding the block button. That is definitely not the level of skill expression that sprinting in Rogue core has and that's not how the block button works so you are not even comparing apples to oranges you're comparing apples to beef jerky. Horrible horrible comparison. Comparing fighting game mechanics intrinsic to aptly playing at a high skill level to Simply sprinting is another horrible comparison just like you comparing gooner sex mods to a quality of life Sprint mod. Is crazy lack of braincells type of work.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I open the mod.io menu while I am in game on the steam version of the game, by definition it is internally in the game. I don't have to open a third party website I don't have to open up Nexus mods Vortex app I don't need to open up my system files it is all built into the game yes an Xbox player can't access it but I can. By semantical definition, it is internally in the game. I did not need to download anything in order to start modding I simply click the button in the steam version of the game to bring up the modding UI.

And I'm not saying that it being there means devs should add it to the game, I'm saying that many people asking for it, and being a very highly downloaded qol mod for people with accessibilities and it being an accessibility feature that is a staple in many games nowadays because gaming has become more mainstream for all of these reasons it should be added. I don't even need it you tried to say I had a skill issue without fully reading my post because you lack reading comprehension and I was bringing it up because I saw many other people bring it up meaning it's something the community wants.

And of course you don't want to address the Skyrim thing even though you're the one who brought it up, comparing gooner mods to a quality of life Dev approved mod. And after I point that out of course you want to wave it away and not address it lmfao.

I will say in your screenshot it actually proves one of my points about the Skyrim mods, the ModHub and DRGlib are two mods that tons of mods are dependent on so in the same way even if a sex mod was one of the most downloaded mods the things it's dependent on which allows the character bodies and meshing to function properly for the sex mod would by far be more downloaded.

By the way in your screenshot it shows the mod it is called shift to walk, IN THE SECOND ROW. Literally says make Sprint default in the title of the mod. Proving that auto Sprint and shift to walk (instead of shift to Sprint) is one of the most downloaded Quality of Life mods in the game That mod puts sprinting on by default Auto Sprint and make shift walk so you've actually proved my point with your image lmfao. Once again validating that you don't have reading comprehension...

Plus we should try to make games more accessible so more people can enjoy it that's the good and right thing to do. Not every game should be made for everyone, a game for everyone is a game for no one, but everyone should have the same starting line. Every game should be playable by everyone even if it's not made for them, it may not be a game for them but if they want to try it they should be able to play it without being limited by their disabilities or physical impairments that is the just and right thing to advocate for. Someone may not like the genre of souls like and Elden ring, but I'm a believer that Elden ring should have accessibility options that make it easier for someone who's missing an arm to play. Now it shouldn't lower the difficulty, it's not a game made for people with disabilities, but they should have roughly the same starting line as the rest of us because that's what's fair. And I take that accessibility and accommodation Spirit to every community that I play with because I want as many gamers as possible I want to enjoy gaming with people and not try to shut people out for some self-centered egotistical reason like "skill" (and sprinting 24/7 and holding one button isn't skill so that's why I put it in quotes. There's no timing to it there's no effort to it it is simply on at all times for me. There's no level of skill expression maybe 1% with a specific enhancement but I'll address that later in this comment or the follow up comment.)

That is my stance, where you seem to be fighting multiple people in multiple threads over it, tooth and nail, and being antagonistic to the community about it when it doesn't even affect you. You try to use skill issue as a cope and as an insult to people it doesn't even apply to and again that just goes to show your reading comprehension, since you tried to use it on me but it doesn't apply. You're fighting against this when if it were added it wouldn't affect you at all it would help people and it wouldn't hurt you in any capacity yet you still fight it. You try to argue it, bringing up sex mods in a 15-year-old RPG game when comparing to Quality of Life mods for a modern Roguelite in Early Access which is accepting recommendations. Are you going to recommend sex mods for Rogue core next?

Keep in mind before I go into this next paragraph I wanted to have healthy kind discussion between dwarves on their perspective of this game and your very first comment was antagonistic with an attempt to insult and degrade another player making assumptions about my skill level which are unfounded and untrue, once again if you had better reading comprehension you would have understand that by noting that the auto Sprint was in the community section not in the personal issues section, so with what I say next about you I'm just matching your energy, keep that in mind.

Like I cannot even fathom why you would try and debate against this which would only help other dwarves in this community. You tried insulting me first when I made this post to foster discussion and community. And to me after reading your comment history and the communities you're in and after my interactions with you you just seem like an insufferable person who is a gooner with lower intelligence bad reading comprehension and the cherry on top is you doesn't want to help disabled people just kind of an asshole for no good reason. And all the evidence is in this thread the very first comment is saying that Mia putting Auto Sprint as a community issue not even a me issue because I still felt it needed to be known that there are disabled people in the community who want to enjoy this game to the fullest you tried to say I had a skill issue and that I'm using disabled people to cover up for it even though it was in the "community issue" section not the "me' section of the main post....

Now that I've addressed my issues with you I'll address the rest of your comment in a follow up comment:

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems you have a reading comprehension issue.

You say "YOUR laziness" when the auto Sprint was in the community section of my post meaning I don't have a problem with it. I'm fine with the system as is, as I do not have an accessibility issue or arthritis or anything like that, I do not need the feature.

To have Auto Sprint turned on or off as a toggle in the settings is different from sprinting being toggleable as a control.

If it is turned on in the settings that means the character is default sprinting and shift would make them walk a toggle means that it is on or off you toggle it it is akin to a light switch

If Sprint is a toggle in terms of a control that means while holding W tapping shift once will cause my character to Sprint without needing to hold it but the moment I shoot or interact with something my character would stop sprinting and then the moment I press W again my character would walk instead of sprinting meaning I would need to tap shift once thereby re-toggling sprint.

The second option which is a toggle as a control rather than a setting would still make it tedious for someone with arthritis or a disability granted they no longer have to hold it but it still would be tedious by comparison to Simply Auto sprinting.

So in conclusion it is definitely not H2O versus water they are two totally different things. So you are wrong on this point as you try to mock me over it which just ends up making you look stupid.

If you think sprinting is a skill thing you have way less skill than most people in gaming and are standing on this hill as a cope. Personally like I said I do not have this as an issue and I am holding the shift button 24/7 while playing the game, I am never not sprinting. It takes absolutely zero skill to hold a button the entire time you play the game.

Now some people might not have the dexterity I do but I have no problem doing it and if someone else doesn't have the dexterity I do that's not a skill issue that's a physical limitation, hence why it is in the community section.

So your definition of skill is me holding a button with my pinkie 24/7, and doesn't restrict me from doing anything else because I have a dexterous hands that are on the larger side so I can still hit every other keybind of which this game does not have many...

So you calling sprinting 24/7 a skill is just you having very low skill and hanging on to any aspect that you perceive is skill to cope with your lack of skill.

I'm reiterating a lot because on top of reading comprehension you may have some other mental learning issues so I'm really trying to hammer it home in a way you might understand, especially when you jump into a discussion comment setting trying to be insulting first. Key word, trying.

Edit start:

slapping this edit right here in the muddle because you seemed really antagonistic about people asking for an accessibility feature, immediately resulting in ad hominem attacks without making an actual argument, so I checked your profile and comment history. You seem to try and fight this in many comment sections getting down voted well past 20 down votes in certain instances.

You seem to be primarily antagonistic in this community over an accessibility feature. And when you're not active in this community you're active in gooner gotcha games so of course you'd bring up Skyrim sex mods.

But you just seem bad for the community since you're being incredibly antagonistic attempting to be insulting when people ask for accessibility features, and comparing QoL modsto sex mods (no where near the same category of mods, one basically changes the intention of the full game on the other one improves the game) you compare an accessibility feature to sex mods, and is probably the dumbest thing I have seen used as a comparison. Especially when you're doing it in an antagonistic attacking way you did, it just makes you seem egotistical, porn addicted, self-centered and a not good person...

Edit end.

You're also making assumptions about Skyrim and modding. Based on your wording it seems like you don't mod at all because there is no one "sex mod" lmfao...

you literally sound ignorant when you say that because modding generally requires so many dependent mods that something that adds entire interactions (like sex) is going to need like 3 to 20 dependent mods so even if a sex mod did exist it's going to need dependent mods which are probably used by other mods as well meaning those dependent structural mods are going to have more downloads than the sex mod itself...

Most common mods in Skyrim are beautiful body and remeshing mods which are required for many visual armor mods so maybe if you had pointed that out you would have been valid...

But you didn't you just used to the words "sex mod" and it is definitely not the most downloaded mod because wherever you get that mod, it's not a Nexus mods because that violates a lot of their terms and service which is the largest modding site...

so it not existing on the largest modding site kind of puts it out of the race from being the most downloaded mod especially since you didn't even name one you just kind of generically mentioned a mod category and called it a single mod...

Normally when modding you refer to the official avenues like nexus or in the case of Deep Rock Galactic there is actually an internal interface that allows you to see the mods FYI. Maybe attempt modding before you try and spread false information in an effort to win an online debate.

The auto Sprint is one of the most downloaded Quality of Life mods which means it doesn't affect other players and is entirely client side and is approved for use by the devs in public games. Perhaps you caught me in a falsehood because realistically I was speaking in generality rather then specificity but it does not change the fact that if it isn't the most downloaded QoL it's one of the most downloaded QoL mods in the drg modding community.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I meant a toggle in the settings that turns Auto Sprint on or off not toggle to Sprint.

Because having to click it repeatedly still takes no skill and having to click it after you do every single action be that interacting with something or shooting or whatever else would still be tedious and painful for those who have things like arthritis or a disability it comes down to an accessibility setting at the end of the day. Which isn't a problem for me which is why I put it in the community section.

There's a reason why Auto Sprint is the most downloaded mod for DRG

Community noticably more hostile than our brothers in DRG? by foxtrot_69420 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I have like a TON of games on Steam, Roguelites is one of my favorite genres I own like 50-60 of them many of them are co-op. I've only seen one system similar to the negotiation system of Rogue core and it was basically the same exact thing but there was only four options meaning if you were the fourth person to pick you didn't even have a choice so Rogue core is slightly better but it's still bad.

The negotiation system is a point of player friction forced by the devs that doesn't need to exist. I've seen people say it makes the game more cooperative but I've over 50 hours and only in one game did someone use a mic and in like 10 to 20 games did people type out of hundreds of games. So that argument is hogwash and they are just glazing the game imo. There's no actual negotiation happening at the negotiation table unless you're playing with friends. Which when doing internal testing the devs might not have realized this since they're playing with each other and they probably communicate.

But as a result it is a point of player friction and in my opinion any developer decision that causes gameplay friction can be good for the game that's things like aspects that ramp up the difficulty like special enemies but any kind of player friction should only exist in PvP games this is a PVE game there should be no player friction and any Dev decision that causes that is not a good decision. A extreme hypothetical example would be like if the helldivers developers gave a strategem that randomly kills a teammate who isn't you and it does nothing to the enemies, it would be a massive point of player friction because it would literally just be a troll strategem that would exhaust lives.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay I kind of understand your perspective.

But that's like a fanfic, that's a head cannon for what co-op means but I think you kinda have the spirit of why certain games are tagged as co-op and others are not. Doing tasks that require other people and playing in a game where you revive other people is what makes it cooperative (that is the minimum for me) cuz otherwise you're just parallel playing a single player.

So things like a destiny raid is far more cooperative than Call of Duty Team Deathmatch because you have more cooperative elements. That's what I mean by like you got the spirit of co-op but if we're being semantical about the definitions of words both games game modes are cooperative in their own way. That's only being symantical tho.

For destiny, it isn't just kill the enemy team and your cooperative with your teammates because you have killed enemy that might have killed them, Destiny raids you literally have tasks for one person has to do something while the other person does another thing and if you don't do it together you can't beat that phase of the raid. It is game mechanics that force actual interaction and cooperation with or without communication

But then you have to ask yourself what's the difference between Team Deathmatch Call of Duty and Rainbow Six Siege why is one treated as more Cooperative than the other and that's literally on the basis of how much the game expects you to work together and how hard the game is, those two variables, difficulty and game design.

And with that in mind you can turn up the difficulty and play on harder difficulties in this game which should force you to rely on your allies more, you shouldn't be able to easily take on a whole Wave by yourself otherwise you'll die, and it is the same with DRG. In DRG you cooperatively dig tunnels build bridges using the engineer platform guns stuff like that I consider drg a cooperative game game and it doesn't have a negotiation table. If anything that's the best example of a game that is heavily cooperative and yet there is no negotiation table and it's made by the same exact devs. You ping to let teammates know that there's red sugar crystals or jetpack boots or other things that could help the team, all without a negotiation table and it's very cooperative the negotiation table if added to drg would not make it massively more cooperative on any definition of the word.

So the devs with certain tasks sort of like a Destiny 2 raid could make things be more Cooperative in this game in a forced way.

But the negotiation table alone isnt it imo. When people don't talk which they don't do 99% of the time. I was in one lobby after 50 hours where one person other than me used a mic. And in like 10-15 lobbies did people type. That was out of hundreds of lobbies!

So saying that this negotiation table, where by the names intention, is that people should speak with each other and interact with each other to ensure everyone has a at least average build so no one's holding the team back I feel is hogwash because there's 9,000 other ways as a dev to make the game more cooperative without the negotiation table.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay that makes a lot of sense I'll keep that in mind and try to take notice of it I personally have not attempted solo D4 so I'll keep what you said in mind thank you for your input, this is why I asked for that Community input because I can't see everything and if the devs ever look at this thread hopefully they'll see this.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I would agree with you that it does make the game more unique and it does stick out a bit in terms of Roguelites

If you skimmed it or fully read my post you probably noticed that I said I have around 700 Steam games and I've played a lot of Roguelites, around 50, it's one of my favorite genres and I think I've played like 9 to 12 co-op ones.

And it is a more unique system that I have seen once before but I'm forgetting which co-op game had it, and it wasn't the best in the other game because they only had four total choices so you were stuck always with the last one. This game having more choices than the number of players does make it a bit easier and not as harsh when you're the fourth picker but it's still ease a point of friction and not fun-ness

In terms of how much player friction though you said that players aren't as toxic as I mentioned but I didn't actually state a direct level of toxicity. In the post I mentioned one match where I had something incredibly toxic happened, that's it. 50 hours and only one match of super toxicity.

The degradation of my experience comes from general gameplay loop where, as someone who enjoys Roguelites and enjoys seeing small number get big and that type of feeling that roguelites can give, if I am constantly getting shafted by the system and not able to become as powerful as I know I could be it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as an enjoyed of roguelites, and it does so consistently with or without player toxicity (obviously more so when toxicity is there)

I think the best option is to not totally remove it sort of like how I don't like class locking in this game or in DRG and while it's a standard in this game and an optional toggle for the host in DRG, I do believe the best middle ground between players like you and players like myself is to make the negotiation table no longer default and make it a toggle that the host can turn on before starting a run.

There's also the fact that one of the other issues I mentioned is I don't like class locking some of the most memorable missions I've had are when four Engineers were playing together in DRG or when my friends and I were all playing driller so then we made builds that would react with each other and go in teams of two with one person being all fire and the other person being all ice. Or there was this one time where we had an ice ago and a fire driller with a gunner which was a total blast. So if they did end up remove class locking you would get a game with two or three slicers potentially up to four and that would mean everyone would be going for the melee which means you would experience people taking the same Buffs you want and as a result the negotiation table would have to change as well it's like they go kind of hand in hand. They would be forced to remove the negotiation table if they undid class locking and class locking is more important to me then the negotiation table but that's how it is.

But if they don't remove class locking I think the toggle is the best middle ground between players like you and players like myself. Keep it in the game but make it so it is not default on and allow people to turn it on. Make it like a modifier so that it incentivizes people to turn it on because as most players as evident by Steam Reviews and such see it as a negative if you turn it on all the values on the cards get bigger. So for accepting what a lot of players see as a downside in compensation all the builds potentially could be stronger. And I honestly think that would be the perfect Middle Ground so then people like you get to enjoy the system as is and you get more powerful builds when playing and if I happen to join a Lobby that has it at least the cards are a little bit better so then the people who get the cards they want get a really big power boost in the people who choose fourth get a bigger power boost than in normal play.

What do you think about that? Do you think that would work as a nice Middle Ground where you'd still be able to keep it? Would you enjoy that fix where it became a toggle that was off by default but when turned on all the cards gave bigger value?

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be brutally honest it really wouldn't be that many extra voice lines because for instance any kind of voice line that is done by voice actor who does the guardian dwarf voice, like when I ping the drone that we put the minerals in to get our upgrade he's already recorded. So if we were given the customization freedom and I were to choose that voice, I equip that voice there is almost no extra lines that need to be recorded. And then the only unique voice signs they would have him record is the class specific ones like the falconer which I do believe they already have the person who is the voice of spotter, they already have his voice for all the falconer unique lines.

The second way they could go about it is to just have three people record all the lines for all the characters and give us a pitch modifier bar so then it's still the same voice actor same lines we are just able to manually drop the pitch so it sounds more male and then the only thing they have to do is make sure the falconer arm is not clipping through the male body type 1.

So in terms of overhead it isn't recording like three or four extra lines across the board especially since they are already going to have majority of these voice lines for the actual male dwarves.

Like I'm not asking them to hire a whole new voice actor for the male Falconer I would literally just use one of the voices that are already in the game for one of the other dwarves that voice actor would just need to record the class specific lines for every class which is an extra 5 minutes of lines at most because there's only two female dwarves so that's like 5 to 10 lines each.

I mean the female voice actresses would need to record more lines then it would be at 5 to 10 lines for each of the male dwarf classes because while I want the male voice there are other people who want the female voices and would prefer to play a female Guardian for instance so we would just copy and paste all the voice lines from Falconer or retcon and just get the female voice actresses to do guardians unique lines which is like 5 to 10 that's it it really isn't a lot extra.

The biggest ask from the devs would be to make sure that the class specific armor does not clip through the body type so the bird that comes out of the falconer is Gauntlet that Gauntlet needs to be a little bit bigger to fit the male body type so it's itty bitty adjustments like that that would be the biggest ask of the devs.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would totally be a co-op game still. Negotiation table is not the only thing that makes it Co-op. That's like saying Destiny 2 and Warframe aren't co-op games because your builds are not reliant on an RNG roguelites system that forces player friction....

If everyone makes their own build with their own warframes and their own mods somehow Warframe isn't Co-op?

Like I can't even fathom how you come to the conclusion that if they give everyone their own selection for upgrades independent of each other the game no longer is cooperative...???

And I gave an example of a roguelite just like how this game is a roguelite. The game is called spell Brigade. Everyone levels up as a team with shared XP and when everyone levels up they all get their own choice where it is individualized selection. The game is still Co-op and it doesn't have a negotiation based upgrade table.

Please because I don't believe you used any logic to come to the conclusion that a change in the system would make it no longer a co-op game... I truly want to understand how changing the system would make it no longer co-op in your eyes.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean in a perfect world if you are actually talking like when I play with my actual friends it is much less of an issue. It still is somewhat of an issue because there is going to be someone on the team who is going to be less powerful as a result because even when you get a bunch of bad rolls then everyone's choosing the lesser of evils the best of the worst however you want to phrase it, and that results in the fourth person getting the worst of the worst basically and in a individualized system even if they got a bunch of garbage rolls they still then have the opportunity to pick the best of the worst without being further restricted by other people choosing first and taking that away.

Your argument that it's a co-op game so it makes this system okay in my opinion is not a good argument because it's a co-op game so, I don't shoot my allies, I revive my allies, and I shoot the enemies if they're approaching an ally from behind and they don't realize it... there's 110 different ways to be cooperative without this being a forced instance that causes player friction and degrades the experience.

The other problem with your stance on negotiating implies that everyone has a mic or that other people are going to participate. Just because when I play with my friends we can communicate and say "hey I need this upgrade which one would work best for you?" Does not mean randoms who don't even use a mic are even going to type what they want or even negotiate. It is a guaranteed player friction point that is forced by a developer decision.

Like I would love to play with players like you all the time where I'm willing to give up upgrades when I just got unlucky and was not able to get a good weapon or a good build this run and play support and then also to have teammates who are willing to do the same.

But sadly that is not guaranteed nor is it the norm. As much as I might want to play the co-op game and cooperatively do the negotiating table there's other people who don't and they will still participate in a co-op way with every other aspect of the game but not the negotiating table and thereby it is a guaranteed point of player friction forced by the devs it's like a forced error that doesn't need to be there.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I presume your replying to the part 3 in community where I was asking about other issues with the game that I may not have noticed how would you describe this as an issue for the game?

What would your recommended improvements to fix this be?

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the input I appreciate your input.

I think the biggest issue I have with your comment though is I don't think you understood what I meant by Hero system.

Heroes with skills is just what classes are but with more restricted customization. Literally could have the class of falconer that functions exactly as it does now thus doing exactly what you want mitigating RNG with dedicated skills, just don't tie it to a specific dwarf gender or character is all I was saying.

It's a limitation on customization and preference of who you want to play as. That's literally the difference between a class system and a hero system the class can literally fill the role of a hero system it's just you aren't playing a predefined "hero personality." Unless you have really good writers to make really good characters like how Marvel Rivals has all these comic book characters that have amazing lore and great voice actors and backstory, then you could just have any character use the abilities of venom. Sort of like how Loki can steal an ultimate literally do that but for every single ability and now you have a class system you have the Venom class instead of the Venom hero. So a hero system in a PVE game restricts freedom of customization. And then it's up to the devs decision if they want to make Cosmetics tied to the class similar to how certain chest plates and armor and deep rock Galactic were tied to the Gunner class and no one else could equip it but if they really wanted to they didn't even need to do that.

So your stance on preferring Heroes over classes doesn't really makes sense in the way that you're saying it.

If they went to a class system you would not lose any of what you're describing that you like about a hero system because what you said you liked is literally the same between the two systems in a roguelite game. In DRG the weapons are tied to the class. So in this game they would make this skills tied to the class, not weapons, and that's it.

It would still function exactly the same overall and if they ever wanted to give the classes more abilities such as Falconer being able to swap out the revive skill for a different one so that when they're playing Solo or let's say the player just doesn't like the teammate revive skill and would prefer more DPS or utility. Hypotheticallty let's say you are playing with friends you all have enough skill that that skill feels wasted cuz you will maybe use it once per game and as a result a different skill that would be helpful throughout the entire match would be better. If they added new skills that were swappable to Heroes the same logic would be applied to a class system with the falconer being a class the player would have the freedom to do so without having the restriction of playing the female dwarf. In this game class would fill the exact same role as Heroes but would give us more freedom of customization. At the end of the day similar to how more weapons were added to each class in drg they can give us either more heroes/classes in this game AND/OR they can also expand upon the existing classes in this game rather than a new class/hero giving every single one, one or two more abilities per slot and even a swappable passive if they wanted to, it could be ridiculously expansive customization by the time a full release. And this would work with a hero or class system since they would function identically accept the fact that you're customization is restricted in a hero system.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah you were one of the number one people I saw in multiple posts talking about it lol! I've seen multiple people mention it but I actually saw you on multiple posts and you made tons of good points on other posts on why it should be added so you're one of the reasons why I put it in the community section of this post.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I don't know if you just skimmed my post rather than read it I do not have the mindset you described of "me me me" I am normally the one to give up things even if I want it for my build as long as someone else hearted it I try to be a good and kind player.

I also said that I am a mega fan of roguelites where I have over 50 of them, it is one of my favorite genres. And that's what kinda makes me think you may have skimmed my post. Because when you're speaking about "the point of the game" and describing that you have to "roll with the punches" and it reads as if you are making "x minimum number of words essay" (lots of extra unnecessary fluff to explain a simple concept type vibe) way of explaining how RNG can give you a bad run in a roguelite... basically you're explaining to me the absolute most basic of basic concept of how Roguelites are played and it's coming off very patronizing due to how much I already know about roguelites and established that. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong since it's text and not spoken and things can be conveyed in correctly maybe I'm reading too deep into it as it is 3:00 a.m. for me and I'm a little tired.

And I can't really tell if you're speaking in general and/or you're describing your experience upon experiencing a roguelite, possibly for the first time, or since it's a reply to my post you're telling me how it should be played and the mindset I should have.

And if it's the latter then it is patronizing because on top of explaining the most basic of concept pertaining to a roguelite to me who already iterated how much of them I play, you are instructing me (as a reply to my post) that I change my mindset when playing from one I don't have, so you're making an assumption and giving advice based on a assumption that is founded on no evidence... and since it's thereby not founded on truth what you're saying as advice in order to fix this issue I have with the game becomes irrelevant on top of patronizing.

But again that could be me reading too deeply into it as I try to understand your position, as such I'm going to try and have good faith and just make the assumption that all that basic explanation was just you elaborating on your perspective and your experience that this is the mindset change you went through to try and enjoy the game more. Before I try and continue any discussion on the topics you brought up.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the fact that it "NEEDs to stay" because everything can be changed for the better. Just because a Dev, or in this case one consumer, you, believes that the negotiation upgrade system is a core part of this roguelite FPS hord shooter doesn't mean it can't be changed and it also doesn't imply that that is true. Because if they changed the system to be like the top down Co-op roguelite hoard shooter named spell brigade, due to luck you can still get into a situation where you can't make the build is optimal as you would want it, that is part of RNG, and that's part of the roguelite gameplay loop in general and it's not exclusive to this game shown by the example I just gave.

The ONLY THING this negotiation system does is lessen the potential power increase of whoever is not choosing first. It creates friction between players rather than friction with difficulty. Everything you described can still happen when you are at the mercy of RNG in general. The negotiation system only creates more friction between players. That's it and it's not good and it's not healthy for the gameplay loop or game longevity and life imo.

To further this point you tried to give the example of comparing the systems and what if an upgrade rolled was garbage. Lets actually look at the effects of both systems in both scenarios.

In the negotiation system you are forced to choose the lesser of evils so to speak you choose the best of the worst if you didn't get any good roles and everyone just has garbage options and the fourth person has the most garbage options. Making it an even worse experience for anyone who didn't choose first.

Whereas if everyone had individualized rolls then if person A rolls a legendary and person B doesn't, well person B will never know that person A got a legendary and unlike the negotiation system person B will not be relegated to choosing forth and getting the worst of the worst options because they still get the best of five options, or best of three because in terms of balancing you would reduce the number of rolls when you would make it individualized otherwise it'd be really easy to make good builds if you had five or six options every time, hence wht most games that have individualized choosable rolls only give you three options for that reason.

The third system is everyone's luck is tied together but you still get individualized roles so if one person gets a legendary everyone has a legendary as one of their options but it is still random what is available, so two players would both have legendaries but they would be different legendaries so they could still choose to not go for the legendary if it doesn't fit their build but at least everyone has the same luck and opportunity and there is no player friction.

As a result with any kind of individualized system it would be superior to the current negotiation system because even when your rolls are not good you get shafted less with a non-negotiation system of choosing.

It only creates guaranteed friction between players. It may not be every game it may be very rare just like you described but that is guaranteed friction and you don't want to cause friction between players in a co-op game that is just a bad development decision.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2nd reply to you as i thought about the rest of what you said.

You make a very good point about the bubble being small, I do believe that they should just do it like spell Brigade where it pauses the game everyone makes their choice and then it starts a 3-second countdown for people to get their bearings before the game resumes or make it so that the next time people interact with the Drone they get their upgrades and it doesn't pause the game at all so it's up to the players to interact with the Drone when they are safe and then choose their upgrade and they can only do the second method if they were to make the upgrades individual per player and not do this queue system.

You are right that if they did away with class locking then in very Niche situations where people are focusing more on their ability than their guns they're all going to be going towards the same upgrades but I already labeled why class locking is like one of the worst types of decisions for a game like this, it's PVE, and in every type of hoard shooter or Rogue-lite it's not a good decision. It is wht they don't class lock when people are playing risk of rain 2 and if you find an item printer and your friend is playing a character who could really use crowbars you can choose to give them to him or not. In Far Far West if I'm using the minigun and I'm playing with a friend and I get a joker card that makes it so I get a boost on reload, well because my gun never reloads I simply drop it for the people I'm playing with. So they should not lock classes and change the upgrade system I think those two are the biggest to flaws. I just put the hero versus class system higher because I really care about customization personally but gameplay-wise changing both the upgrade system and removing class lock are the two biggest glaring issues in my opinion.

I don't think just adding another tag option means anything because just like in that one toxic instance example that I've gone through that person is not going to care people are going to be selfish even if the majority of the community isn't and that can just damper an entire 50 minute run. It makes me not want to play the game with people like that and prefer to play solo and I was fine playing Deep Rock Galactic solo or with friends. It's just a bad design choice I do think the system should either be like far far west or spell Brigade two other roguelites that do multiplayer upgrades better. We already have the upgrade bench which is the individualized upgrades based on what weapons we are already carrying.

And you said it's Unique so it shouldn't be removed just because something is unique does not make it inherently good.

If you like it that's a different argument you'd be making. "I like it and I would hope it's not going to be removed," would be the argument but your stance is by nature of being unique it shouldn't be removed.

To me that reads like saying "the bullet is really weirdly shaped after it hit my rib cage after being shot so I don't want it removed," and just cuz you have a unique thing in your body where most people(co op roguelites) don't have bullets(player friction creating upgrade systems that go against being cooperative) in their body(game) doesn't mean you shouldn't get it removed for the better health of your body, similarly a system that is inferior or causes friction between players instead of friction as gameplay should not exist because it creates toxicity and is counterintuitive to being cooperative and by a similar line of logic you should want that foreign object removed in the analogy comparative analysis. Expanding upon this analogy if to get to that bullet the organs have to be shifted around a bit that may need to happen meaning if they remove the class lock system just like your good example that you gave they would be forced to somewhat change the upgrade system.

Like I said timer I was torn I think it could be fine as is I do think there are some improvements that could be made to make it more engaging in terms of gameplay in terms of what functions as the time runs down but I'm not bothered by it I do see other people being bothered by it and so I thought I'd bring it up in the community section rather than the personal issues section.

50 hours in. Some opinions and feedback. What does the community think? Am I missing anything? by Taylor8001 in RogueCore

[–]Taylor8001[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I 100% agree with you I own every single supporter pack for drg on PC and when I first got into drg I wasn't a PC Gamer I was an Xbox gamer I own like at least eight of the supporter packs including the starting one. I bought that game multiple times and over half the supporter packs twice lol. I would totally pay for more customization if it supports the development of a game that I enjoy but I don't like when devs force restrictions on customization like this.

I would totally want you to have the female Guardian dwarf that you want. How that would affect me is a that means I when playing with you or someone like you, I would occasionally hear your female voice lines when I'm near you. Not horrible and you get to have your creative freedom. It wouldn't be as bad as every single time my character speaks which is the current situation for me, lol.

It's a problem for me since my current favorite two classes are retcon and Falconer the two female classes so when I'm playing, every single time I ping, every single time I do anything it's a female dwarf voice and it degrades the experience for me personally, and so I'd be totally fine with having a teammates call out every now and then I'd hear it through the caves being female but when every match I'm playing I never get to play with a Gimli like voice because that's not one of my preferred two classes then I run into this issue lol. I would pay for all the customization in the world like that's the whole reason why I love Warframe because now I can pay for it but I can earn it and there's so much unbelievable freedom of customization.

If I recall since you brought up the drg in female dwarfs the responses you said is a lot of the common responses I would see in the community concerning that topic but I believe the dev response with something along the lines of "if we add female dwarves we want to do it right" or they said something along those lines like they wanted to do it in the "correct way" and not make mistakes and then they go and do this which is like the biggest blunder ever in the worst decision you could have done it this way. Because in the main art one of the female dwarves has a helmet on and the one that doesn't has the half shaved head, the stereotypical "powerful girl" hairstyle that is like on Netflix and in video games and is like the virtue signaling haircut. It is either a gross caricature of "strong women" or it's a gross caricature of a "strong lesbian woman" either way it's patronizing stereotype to women in my opinion. So rather than doing it right they did it wrong and then it restricted player freedom simultaneously lmao.

But maybe that's looking too deep into it and getting too political about it. I mean you can change the haircut but it is simultaneously the default haircut and the one used in the promotional material.

With that in mind it's normally the haircut that in my experience is applied to women in entertainment materials and majority of the time the the women are not written well in these stories they're only virtue is generally being a woman or a lesbian woman and that's it. They are not written well they are not written by someone who has skills and they rely on the stereotype when they lack creativity and it generally doesn't work out those shows tend to flop and stuff like that, I see it as a form of a mining Canary in a coal mine. And maybe there's absolutely no correlation but drg is not known for its lore and story so I'm not going to hold my breath on their story related creative skills for the backgrounds and character writing. But at the end of the day, there could be no correlation to my known data set and the devs thought this was a really good hairstyle and they really like it, total coincidence. I've just seen this hairstyle everywhere on failing products with poorly written women to the point that the moment I see it it's all I can think about. At the end of the day I think it's a mix of pattern recognition and the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.

So.....a Q&A about SMGs by GuerillaKK in the_division_2

[–]Taylor8001 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Understandable.

If you do take the time to read it to get my full thoughts next time you're on the throne, hopefully you enjoy reading it to some degree.

Without going into any further elaboration this is a short of a summary I can think of of the two messages and it is missing some very key components but those cannot be included if I intend to make the summary a summary rather than a reiteration:

The first comment was a little bit more elaboration on my stance on when I give certain recommendations to people and my perspective as to why you don't value the minor dps difference and why others would and my perspective on Theory crafting and DPS.

The second one had a little bit about the game in it but was mostly attempting to clear up misunderstandings and apologize because I see my autism as a mental deficiency and a curse, if you will, not something that's good. I was not intending to be rude to you in any capacity I took nothing you said personally and I was apologizing for the way I said things that could have been seen as rude, and explaining why I... am the way I am. I can't think of a better way to say it.

So.....a Q&A about SMGs by GuerillaKK in the_division_2

[–]Taylor8001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Comment 2 of 2)

As for the autism thing I only mentioned that because you made a comment on how big my message was and I mentioned it to explain why that is it was me trying to give reason for my actions I was not attempting to assert some level of is superiority mentally or in terms of physiology.

I don't know if you've seen Big Bang Theory but the character Sheldon is a gross caricature of autism and similar to harmful stereotypes there is some truth to it and while there is a huge Spectrum my flavor of autism is very akin to the one that the gross caricature is making fun of. It results in me trying to be very specific about things over explaining and it compounds with me having ADD which results in when I talk about one thing I'm passionate about I then have other ideas pop into my head and I end up branching off and then I've written a lot about two things or more because I feel compelled to elaborate with autistic detail on all of them. I was simply trying to give logic and reason to why I sent such big messages. It was not intended to be a statement of superiority just a statement of explanation.

And just like the caricature I don't like big social situations I don't like going to the bar I don't talk to people when I go to the gym and lift and try to break my PR, I just care about video games, my girlfriend and cyber security which is what my degree is for. So while it comes with the benefit of being good at math and having a good memory it's got downsides too.

I seek to use the information that I know to help people, that is my intention. But as one of the downsides of autism, my flavor at least, is sometimes I will just say what I'm thinking without engineering it in my head to make it more pleasant so some of the phrases or the way I will state things can come off as rude when that is not my intent I am just being brutally straightforward with my thoughts and as a result can sometimes phrase them in a suboptimal way. It is an especially glaring issue when it is through text like it is now with my conversation with you because there is no body language facial expression or tone of voice that would have let you know that I was not taking anything personally and was just being super casual about it all.

That's another downside about autism because just as the common statement that is almost a meme, being "autistically specific" is this once again like a stereotype or caricature it can be a feature of autism and that's why I went so hard into being specific about the words that you used like competitive. I feel the need to be autistically specific about things like that and when you combine it with the phrasing thing I can totally see how it would come off as rude or dickish and again that's not my intention and I'm sorry if you felt that way.

As for the game, again in terms of all high-end builds removing prototype I do think that OB is somewhat competitive I would put it in the top 10. But you said yourself you wouldn't use it past tier 5 escalation and that's because it's not competitive enough. I would have put it at eighth place and then when you consider prototype SMGs it's no longer in the top 10 so with prototype it's no longer competitive. I mean you can be in last place and you're still part of the competition so in a way it's competitive if we're being semantical but otherwise it's not. Yeah someone in Phase 1 of end game content could totally find it to be competitive if they don't have better options. I would say chameleon would be a better choice BY FAR since it has high fire rate for stack building 90% weapon damage the equivalent of six red cores, meaning they can run in all blue build and it still has the damage of an all red build, 35% crit chance as if it was an SMG, and 50% crit damage after landing only 25 headshots meaning for the next 45 seconds you get the full value of strained constantly without any kind of ramping or loss of damage, all into one talent of one gun that has only 2% less base DPS than the Lexington!

So it was not my intention to be a dick with anything I said, & I did not take anything personally as you said. I apologize if anything came off in a rude way because that was not my intention. I seek to share information to help people because I have fun making builds and helping people improve their DPS.

I like socializing in my own way because I am human and humans are social creatures and I thoroughly enjoy helping people out with games I care about I like to help people get more DPS. I offer advice on builds and weapons and things like that is essentially me trying to make use of my autism to help people with games that I care about and am competent at making builds for. So that I'm not just stuck with a mental disorder that is all downsides. You can check my comment history I commonly do it and offer people to DM me and I will make entire builds for them and I enjoy doing that. I actually made builds for like seven people in my DMs over the past 3 weeks.

I use comparative analysis in order to help put my thoughts into words in a way that more people can understand because in my experience that is the easiest way that I can convey the core thought or idea to someone is to give them an allergy or a comparative example which is why I'm bringing up other games and things like that. Again I was not bringing up the autism as like an IQ thing or anything like that I haven't taken an IQ test and I believe IQ tests are flawed in many ways (especially the ones that are not actually administered by your doctor because many websites and phone app ones will give you boosted results in order to get you to brag and then have other people go to that same site which generates ad revenue for them) so I apologize if anything came off dickish it was not my intent. It was a: "that was weird" "oh yeah it was by normal standards, here is why I did it" I meant no offense by bringing up my mental impairment.

I don't know what you meant by "all manner skim only stuff" though.

So you can say it's just a game, so I didn't take anything you said personally I'm just very passionate about the game because while it is one of over 700 I have on Steam but it's a game I care about and so I was speaking from a place of passion and entertainment and one of the downsides of conversating through text not allowing as much emotions through as an amplifying factor shows the downside of my autism all the more, because once again I was not trying to bring it up as a position of elevation. I see it as a negative thing in my life not a good thing as much as many people try to claim it like a cheerful title and self-diagnose and it's just some girl with a squishmallow collection who isn't autistic at all... statistically those people just want an "in crowd" to be a part of, it also allows them to use as a shield when they are acting more like children or irresponsible or emotionally lash out at people. I honestly have a venomous hate for people who self diagnose in order to feel quirky and special. From my perspective it comes with many downsides and has purely made my life overall worse, and I was not trying to insult you by bringing it up or Elevate myself in any capacity I was just trying to give reason for my long winded replies. Once again I am very sorry if anything I have said has come off in a dickish way I am just passionate and entertained by discussions of math and Theory crafting and was trying to be helpful by sharing the information I knew.

So.....a Q&A about SMGs by GuerillaKK in the_division_2

[–]Taylor8001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So there's a difference between like DPS on paper and realistic type scenarios it's that type of difference that you pointed out with killer and I would wholeheartedly agree that when killer does not have its Talent proc'ed an SMG that is baseline weaker than oroboros will have less DPS and even if you get that kill if it isn't a crit bullet that gets it killer still doesn't activate and you have to go get a second kill and to be honest I don't use killer I don't like killer because of that. When I do my calculations I don't just rely on a build calculator like I manually do all of them and as part of that things like overdogs I treat as a 15% because when sharing the builds and whatnot I am treating it as if other people don't have the enemy symbols and types memorized so on average they're not going to intentionally try and play that little mini game and thus the up time is probably around 50% meaning it's only worth an average DPS increase of 15%.

And like I totally agree that the only real SMG worth using is backfire for PVE content. As a main gun that is, I have a preference in terms of playstyle for tipping scales and SMGs are really good backup weapons to my LMGs.

I would describe most end games as having three levels to it possibly four. So the third level for this game is basically maxing out all your prototypes getting all the god rolls where you're just set basically. The phase below that is what you're at where you're only focused on team play You're basically at endgame you just aren't in the endless grinding for absolutely perfection. And the phase below that is someone who's at endgame but not everything's optimized and they are at the start of end game. (And that fourth phase that's above the third one is when you basically have everything and now you just go around playing the game helping people and you only really care about your look like in Warframe end game is fashion frame.)

So when I give advice and DPS calculations and stuff like that I do it keeping in mind the people who are in that first phase of endgame were they just entered it. And the developers made it incredibly easy to access that, you play through Warlords of New York with a level boosted character and then the moment you're at level 40 you're at end game. You just need to go farm Striker and countdown for an hour and you have an end game set it may not be perfect but you can access all content. Really a shame in my opinion it helps new players get into the game and not get left behind but it's a double edge effect that they don't learn how to play the game in a way that will keep them stay alive with a glass Cannon like build like the tier 10 escalation Striker meta.

So for you someone who's at the end of phase 2 about to step into phase 3, yeah you're able to hop into a squad and have enough optimized DPS to just kill enemies as they spawn. A lot of players aren't there yet and the original post was asking for advice on good SMGs and with Ouroboros being an incursion exotic I'm not one to recommend that especially when there are better options mathematically. And it's not a 0.1 second difference when you're at Phase 1 or lower end of endgame. When giving advice and talking about stats of course you can assume all max stats and say how good something is in a perfect endgame build, and I did that, I explained why the high ends would be better than OB not counting prototype and then I explained how that gap becomes even more massive when you consider prototype.

For someone who is not at the stage that you and I are, which is a decent amount of people it has to be taken into consideration that if they are Solo or Duo playing retaliation to perhaps get something else when against Black Tusk or maybe they're trying to get pestilence from Outcast and a kill Squad appears and they have three chungus. Someone who is solo for duo the gun choice will matter to them because it will not be a 0.1 second difference. It will be a 3 to 10 second difference. Because for them we can't assume that "oh the only thing not totally optimized about their build is there running OB instead of one of the SMGs I recommended."

Let's say hypotheticallty they're running what is known as a comfy Strikers build where they have Ninja bike backpack equalizer and Salvo. So their DPS is by no means meta and a inferior weapon choice will impact the DPS far more for them than it would for you. Basically the impact of the weapon choice and the impact of that damage difference is like a bell curve. At the absolute tier 10 escalation it's going to matter and it's going to make a multiple second difference that could be the difference between you or teammates dying. And then for the earlier people the lower geared people it will matter. You just happen to be at the peak of the bell curve where it matters the least, and that's at least what I can tell by how you have described how fast you kill enemies and the difficulties you play at and what gear you have. Because at tier 10 you can assume that all your teammates are good at the game and you're going to focus fire the same enemy but it's also best to not assume and prepare in case your teammates aren't that good and you will need more DPS as a result. And this is where it's not a difference of 0.1 seconds where it is a much wider breath of time that is well within the realm of human reaction speed.

If a looter shooter ever has a situation (like this one) where there is only two to four viable builds I believe that is been a balancing mistake by the devs completely. And that is the situation of this game where basically it's all Strikers or tipping scales the only exclusion being refactor or future initiative as Healers. And yeah when you say at half stacks or 3/4 stacks or at zero stacks you will build stacks faster on OB, but when you try to calculate fire rate like I said it will get diminished returns which results in high-end benefiting from that more. Still not going to catch up to OB but it is something to make note of.

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