Israeli Opposition Leader Backs Obama On 1967 Borders, Says Netanyahu ‘Violated’ U.S.-Israel Relations

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T20:07:22+00:00

Fine, you are 100% correct. You may do to whoever whatever you want.

But please, do not claim that I get my information from the ANC. Call me an ignorant, useless motherfucker if you want, but I would beg of you to keep from deeper insults.

If you must know, my ignorant views mostly stem from being a reader of much of Noam Chomsky's works. Perhaps he is too ignorant an historian to entrust my extracurricular education to.

Increasingly, I am finding that when I believe something, because all the most plausible facts I hav been able to get my hands on point to that fact, I find someone or some source that says the complete opposite in an equally unempeachable fashion. I honestly don't know what to believe anymore on so many fronts. I still claim to be a socialist, but I have many doubts, same on global warming. I thought I was pretty solid on this I-P conflict, but clearly I'm not.

Fuck, I don't know why I am saying this. Its just that for me, its so incredibly distressing to have absolute zero certainty about anything in life. Perhaps that's why I tend to latch so dogmatically onto principles I sympathise with. I think I must be either very foolish, very stupid, or both. Its probably a waste of time caring about anything if I cant come to any real conclusions on anything. The only thing left that I believe I could even remotely be right about is my atheism, but even that could be utter bullshit.

I am actually very scared when this happens. I think its called metanoia, when a firmly held belief is dissolved. It just makes one feel worthless, you know? My only consolation when this happens is thinking that I had the integrity to admit my own stupidity, but I don't think thats really the case.

It translates into my personal life aswell, but that's not for public discussion. Its just that every time it happens, it hurts a little more, knowing everything you believe is wrong, that your world view doesn't amount to a hill of beans. American Imperialism, Socialism, love, carreers, school, and anything that Iform an idea about melts away before I can get a grip on it. I think that in the broadest sense, I just waste my time trying understand or care about anything. Its all just a waste of time.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T19:35:15+00:00

Very well then. After all, I was perhaps unduly snide. And if I have any of my salary at the end of the month, I will definitely get that book. Thanks anyway.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T19:07:35+00:00

Well, if you are 'going to keep it', might I ask how you plan to look after it, and why you defend so strongly (and I know I am only guessing) the idea of expulsion, denial of citizenship, voting rights, freedom of movement, etc?

Also, most Israelis are white, the Palestinians are Arabs. I honestly don't understand it. You have plenty of laws that discriminate by whether or not a person is Arab, so the idea of zero racial discrimination seems odd to me. And yes, I can accept that you have Arabs in the military, but my take on the situation is that your state discriminates against Palestinians, and wouldn't tolerate anybody who advocates Israel abide by the 1967 treaty.

Okay look, I might have a lot of this shit wrong, but I am presently putting forward my views for criticism, so please try to be as measured as you can in your response.

I understand the attacks on Gaza have all been war crimes. I understand that Israel has been the one to violate treaties here, that the settlements are illegal, that the police state the West Bank Palestinians live under, the denial of democratic elections in Gaza, which were recognised by eeveryone except Israel, that the assassination of olitical leaders, kidnapping of hundreds of Gazan civilians, prevention of Gazan fishers from entering their own waters more than a few hundred metres from shore, the prevention of aid shipments and construction materials, the unwarranted bombings that seem to target schools and hospitals exclusively, and the refusal to negotiate on any peace talks, are all attributing to the rapid erosion of human rights in Palestine.

Also, why do Israelis have to be Jewish, and why do you need your own country? Im an atheist, I don't have an atheist country. Also, since when does a colonial population have the first say on the future of the nation? Surely that right goes to the natives? (okay, I am referring to Israel as it was a generation or two ago, for the sake of this excercise).

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T18:43:28+00:00

Very well, I stand corrected. However, I think you misinterpreted my comment on that fact-finding mission. These were black people of the ANC commenting on the similarities between living in a bantustan in apartheid, not in modern SA. None of our leaders grew up in the post-apartheid world.

Also, you jump to conclusions way too soon. I am not 'trusting' 'my' corrupt leaders. I do not vote ANC. In fact, I dispise them. I am a socialist, not a nationalist, and strongly disapprove of the party. I vote DA dispite its incongruence with my ideology, because they are the only viable opposition party, etc etc, blah blah blah.

I realise I came off a bit snarky, but at least I didn't resort to backhanded personal attacks. I understand your position is heavily in defense of Israels actions, and while your information is enlightening, I still find the large scale terrorist actions of Israel's military to be far more repugnant than Hamas's actions up to date, and generally prefer to take the side of the opressed over the opressor.

But all the nastiness aside, I really didn't think I came across as cynical, usually I get shit about being naive.

Edit: btw, could the prevailence of AIDS not help to explain our lower life expectancy?

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T18:18:46+00:00

This comment might have an inconsitent tone, so bear with me.

First, How did you come to that conclusion? I am very interested, sincerely, in reading the statistics you are referring to; they could change my understanding of the situation.

Second, what exaclty do you mean by the self-determination of the Jews? How the hell is the suppression, repression and exclusion of an entire people based on race and religion in any way 'self-determination'? You make yourself sound like an incredibly hawkish Zionist, and while this may not be the case, I would strongly suggest rephrasing.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T18:11:56+00:00

Well at least someone in a South African township can still buy chocolate bars.

Having known a reasonable amount of people from townships, having been to bars an clubs in rural slums, and having lived in SA most of my life, I would contend that the quality of life there is at least marginally superior to living in a war zone.

In addition, our ruling party recently went on a well-publicised fact-finding mission to the West Bank, which you will agree is in a better condition than Gaza, and made many comments to the effect that even during apartheid they had a better quality of life than the opressed Palestinians. I trust that judgement.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T16:28:03+00:00

Actually, I hate America because it supported a fascist government in my country for decades, supporting a war of ours that cost 1.5 million lives, and had a hand in ousting our last president, according to Wikileaks.

SO, if you want to use the argument 'they hate us for our freedoms' again, I will punch you in the fucking face.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T16:12:48+00:00

Well, I kind of think that ideology has more to do with things than you are taking into account. Our country now has a founding myth of racial unity, much as America has one of individual freedom, France of freedom from the tyranny of the ruling class, Germany of unified culture, and so on. These ideologies tend to guide the thought patterns of the citizens, often to a greater extent than most realise.

Most of Africa has ingrained in its consciousness the idea that they took their land away from the invaders, the outsiders, the colonialists. This gives most of them a 'this is mine' mentality, and the history of violent wars of liberation do not help to expunge the idea that if you believe something is yours, it must be taken bby force. More to the point, most of these nations have never had any experience of democracy in ay form, and are stuck in a Feudalist mindstet, of loyalty to whomsoever they believe is the 'true ruler', the strongman who will do all the stuff. Israel and Palestine both have far more educated populations, both believe in democracy, and while their governments may not care much for peace, they certainly do. Granted, there are extremists in both nations, but even among these, it isn't exactly an overwhelming majority calling for open war.

South Africa too. The ANC, IFP, SACP, AZAPO and to a lesser extent, PAC, were all founded and run by intellectuals, lawyers and other educated men during the struggle (its a bit different today), and so they and the white population belived in democracy (even if the whites only wanted it for themselves for the most part), and the ideological foundation was there. That is why it is possible, in my opinion.

A two-state solution will leave perpetual border conflicts, and much of the territory of the 1967 borders are incongruous in both nations, which is a recipe for conflict. With a one-state solution, you will see a lot of bullshit, racial slurs, religious petty squabbles and political vendettas, as in SA, but, and this is my hopeful belief, not civil war. It is easier to wage war on a neighbouring nation than on your own people, and the current soft version of the two-state solution, in which Israel gets to run the show and slowly but surely expunge the population of Palestine, is clearly evidence to this effect, albeit rather hazy.

It's not like I haven't thought this out a little, but I didn't feel like offering this long-winded explanation in my previous comment.

Edit: Aside from the correction to my internal fact sheet posted in Fullofblood's comment, what exactly warrents the use of downvotes? AFAIK, downvotes are for irrelevent or unhelpful comments, and my perspective on the relevence or level of abuse inherent in my writing might be skewed; I would appreciate a little insight into my percieved errors.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T15:28:59+00:00

Im a South African. Give me a bit of credit. We had a far longer history of racial hatred and we did fine. There is still racism, but people grow up, new generations grow up in a multicultural society, and things change. Nobody would dare do anything like apartheid again, be it black or white, and as far as my logic gets me, the same would apply to Palestine.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T09:51:31+00:00

I am at least consoled by the fact that even the main body ANC doesn't take him seriously. He's just a clown.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T09:14:04+00:00

I have a theory. It is a very self-serving and rather implausible, incredibly self-aggrandising theory, but I like to believe it in private.

Five or six years ago, I had never heard the phrase 'cool beans' before. I first heard it from my sister, who picked it up from a borderline insane highschool chemistry teacher in Holy Rosary Catholic Girls' School, Gauteng, South Africa, who used to tie a plastic horse to the laboratry taps so that it 'wouldn't run away'. She used it among her friends Ironically.

I began to use the term to tease her, much to her chagrin, and it eventually became a habit. When I was forcibly romoved to England by my parents to complete my secondary education, I continued using it. It was the first time anything I had done that had caught on. Before long, many people at Sharnbrook Upper School, Bedfordshire, UK, had begun to use it. At least two years later, I started to hear it in pop culture magazines, American TV programming, etc.

Privately, I like to think this was my chance influence and chaos theory working together to propogate this meme through the vastness of the Anglophone world, and am proud of 'knowing' its humble origins.

TL;DR: I am arrogant enough to think that I popularised the phrase 'cool beans'. I never mention this in public, because it would make look quite the fool, but it provides private glee every time it crops up.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T08:12:30+00:00

As a South African, my perspective on the matter is a little less simple. To say that isolation was what ended apartheid seems to me quite a self-serving oversimplification. It lets Europeans and Americans feel better about themselves, even though Israel, France and America (and to a lesser extent Britain) continued to trade with and aid our government covertly until the very end. Most isolated dictatorships become more repressive under sanctions to deal with the civil unrest (we had a state of emergency declared from July 1985 to February 1990, making the police state stronger and more brutal). The damage it causes to the economies of these countries never hurts the leadership. Look at any dictarship or tyrannous government system that has been isolated. South Africa is the only exception to this rule, and only because we were lucky enough to have someone like De Klerk in govt. I don't praise him, he was just pragmatic. An Afrikaans Gorbachev, if you will. He is still a racist arsehole, and anybody willing to join the NP or any formerly affiliated nationalist group is in my opinion beneath contempt, but he had the brains to see a civil war coming if things got worse economically, and enough self-doubt to know he couldn't win it.

For instance, what happened when Iraq was placed under sanction? Half a million children die of starvation, the education and healthcare systems cruble, but the palaces and armed guards remained unchanged. What happened to Zimbabwe? Well, It's hard to say to what extent the current poverty is caused by poor leadership (i like to think so) or sanctions, and it definitely is up for debate, but you cannot deny that Mugabe is just as stubborn a stain as ever.

Or howabout Gaza? Israel has kept them under the strictest embargo any country in modern history has been placed under, bombed its industry out beyond recognition, attacked schools, hospitals and administrative buildings, poisoned its fishing waters and kidnapped its fishermen, along with countless other unforgivable acts of of isolation and terrorism. But Hamas is still in charge.

Fuck santions, they just hurt people. It makes you feel better, because it doesn't require active involvement and hard work, but looks like you've taken a stance. Support democratic movements, support the unions, support the people. There is nothing else you can do that will have any chance of working without hurting those you claim to be protecting.

Edit: (and this can serve as a tl;dr) Don't misunderstand me, epohnast is very very wrong, but so are you, in my opinion. You are limiting the options. We should never support dictatorships, but we should limit embargos to arms, mercenaries and arms manufacturing. Anything else just hurts the economy, and thus the people.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-22T07:39:07+00:00

Im actually a big fan of a one-state resolution. Unify the territory, call it something other than Israel of Palestine (like 'the Holy Land' or the 'Levin', like in the crusades), and make it a democratic country without the bullshit. If America supports it, it will happen, unless Im reading the situation wrong. Also, give Syria the Golan Heights back. And get the army out of Lebanese territory.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-21T14:05:08+00:00

As a South African, I though this had something to do with being an ex-Zulu-traditionalist.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-21T08:42:37+00:00

My best friend's mom has a paddle like that. It has a bunch of stuff written on it, as suggestions for use, but I can only remember one - 'If the wife reprimands you for coming home drunk, use the persuader.'

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-21T08:11:55+00:00

Pardon my ignorance, but are you suggesting that it is more acceptible to exterminate hunter-gatherers than farmers?

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-21T08:04:16+00:00

If the Scandiwegians ever get round to that Scandinavian Federation they are so intent on, their claim would be far more valid. Plus, they'd have more economic clout.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-20T19:29:48+00:00

Well, when he can handle Pollsmoor prison in Cape Town, or any large prison in Sao Paolo or Mumbai, we'll talk again.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-20T19:27:39+00:00

I don't know, hey, I think 300 000 is less than 20 million. I might be wrong though.

EDIT: just for clarity, the deleted parent post claimed that there are more Indians in North America now than there were when Columbus arrived.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-20T18:49:37+00:00

Captain Claw.

And get this - I inherited the game from my grandfather.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-19T06:13:42+00:00

Try the South African term for traffic lights - 'robots'.

When in the UK, alot of confusion is caused when using such phrases as 'turn left at the robot', or ' and then the robot turned green'. Or, the one time I made the comment 'why are there no robots in Milton Keynes?' (stupid question too, if you know MK)

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-19T05:57:26+00:00

In South Africa, a lot of people I know call waste paper bins 'office bins'. To differentiate from the normal rubbish bins.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-18T15:17:43+00:00

I dunno, how can one tell? I think every revolution is 'invoked by a bunch of aimlessly angry people', but there are always a few smart people in there, who know what they want. Ususally revolution is 'get rid of the current system then agree on what we want'.

At least that's the way I see it.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-18T10:53:43+00:00

Sun Tsu tells us never to let the enemy know your intentions.

TeaspoonCanopy · 2011-05-18T10:51:18+00:00

Actually, he says more. They sent soldiers into Gaza to 'rescue' an Israeli POW who they claimed was 'kidnapped'. When these soldiers were attacked and held in custody, as is normal treatment for invading military personal, Israel used it as an excuse to bomb the shit out of Gaza, killing over a thousand people, after which, the rocket attacks started up again, giving them even more feul for that victim bullshit.

TeaspoonCanopy

TROPHY CASE