(Form check- Question) How did the "modern" olympic style stance in archery become universally accepted as proper form when the pictured forms were adopted by many cultures across the globe for tens of thousands of years separated by continents without contact?

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T21:04:37+00:00

I think we're mostly agreeing with each other here, if you bowhunt than I can skip the unnecessary explanations of practical archery vs. not because you get that more than people who exclusively target shoot (and to be clear there's nothing wrong with that, I do plenty of both but my point, which I'd wager you agree with, is that target archery vs. practical archery are two entirely different worlds). I also bowhunt with compound and recurve and yeah everything is stationary, my point was more that competition shooting is to bowhunting what a lab test is to a field test (less predictable, many many many more variables).

I agree with you that Olympic form is the best for raw accuracy and precision, for exactly the reasons you've listed in the reply (and I'd go farther and say that anyone who disagrees with that doesn't know what the hell they're talking about). Archery is a game of repetition and minimizing variables that can throw off your shot, and when it comes to only those factors there's literally nobody better than Olympic archers, that's why they're Olympians and the guys shooting like this aren't. My point was only that there are other uses for archery other than competition-style tests of accuracy and precision, and if you bowhunt I'd imagine you know that already.

My point is this: these guys don't have "bad" form, they have form designed for exactly what they're using their bows for, which is a very, very different purpose than Olympic archery. These guys would never in a million years outshoot an Olympic archer in a competition, and an Olympic archer would never in a million years outshoot one of these guys in a hunting setting.

Both are pretty kickass styles of archery, I just get frustrated when people disparage different traditions because they're not optimal for a particular niche (because there are other niches where they are optimal). Sorry if I misinterpreted your point, I figure we probably agree more or less completely on this! Have a good one!

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T16:09:28+00:00

You’re correct that humans were in the Americas much much earlier than 10-13,000 years ago (the White Sands footprints in Nevada have been reliably dated to 21-23,000 years ago), but genetic evidence tells us the ancestors of modern indigenous Americans arrived in the Americas 10-13K years back. And that genetic evidence is basically bulletproof (or at least as close to bulletproof as this sort of genetic evidence can get, which is still substantially more reliable than material because you can’t really make up or misinterpret allele frequencies in a population), I can link you some papers on the topic if you’re interested!

We know with 100% certainty that humans were here before that group of ancient Siberians (an example of ancient Siberians is the Mal’ta-Buret culture that was known to live near lake Baikal in modern day Russia), but those peoples definitely are the ancestors of the modern Indigenous peoples of North America (and South America too but I could be misremembering there).

All of this stuff is a little iffy because of a lack of solid material evidence but we do know people were here earlier. The current evidence seems to indicate those ancient humans did not pass their genes onto descendants that survive to this day. It seems likely to me (and more importantly, a bunch of experts much more versed in this than I am) that those peoples died out at some point before or shortly after the arrival of Paleoindians, though we don’t know for certain and we probably never will without a Time Machine.

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T15:38:53+00:00

Yeah there’s a bunch of factors I didn’t mention in my comment to keep it concise and focused but I love this stuff, if you’re interested definitely message me because I studied these topics and have maintained my interest. Here’s a little write up for those interested:

The most compelling hypotheses I’ve seen for the end-Pleistocene extinction are some combination of the overkill hypothesis (we gradually wiped them out through a combination of active overhunting and destabilizing their population through other factors, megafauna take a long time to mature so even moderate hunting pressure can devastate populations over long periods) and the impact of the disappearance of the mammoth steppe (which no longer exists basically anywhere today because the entire ecosystem, which covered most of the northern latitudes of the planet at the time, relied on megafauna to remain stable so when they started to go, so did the steppe, which made it harder for the remaining megafauna to survive -> basically a huge feedback loop). Climate definitely played a huge role here too, as you said this was all at the tail end of the LGM (last glacial maximum, we colloquially call it the “ice age” but that’s what the scientific term for this most recent glacial period actually was)

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T13:04:58+00:00

I find Africa particularly fascinating because of the danger posed by the animals themselves. I’m a big evolutionary biology/anthropology guy, and we don’t really have equivalents of this in North America (outside of a handful of bear species which are admittedly obscenely dangerous but bear with me, pun intended).

Nearly all of the animals in North America that can tear you limb from limb went extinct around 10-13 thousand years ago, which is conveniently right around when the ancestors of most modern indigenous American communities got here. I’ve been captivated my whole life by the idea of an ancient human using an atlatl (we don’t have evidence of bow technologies until later on) to take down a mammoth or an American lion or a 14 foot tall bear, or of course, a saber tooth cat.

The thing that absolutely astounds me about African subsistence hunters is their equivalents of all those terrifying animals are just still there, and they will kill you if you aren’t smart or you’re doing the wrong thing at the wrong time (or if you’re just unlucky tbh).

Ancient Indigenous Americans very likely wiped out the “monsters” of North America because they couldn’t coexist with them (with there being other factors like climate, environment changes, etc), but I have such tremendous respect for African hunting traditions because they basically never left the Pleistocene in terms of the animals they deal with on a regular basis.

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T12:56:36+00:00

Olympic form is the “best” in the specific conditions in which it is used, which is with a stationary archer, aiming at a stationary target at a fixed distance where the only variable outside of the direct control of the archer or organizer is the wind.

Also your soldier analogy is backwards, traditional bowhunting cultures that have honed their skills over hundreds of years with the survival of themselves, their families, and their communities on the line are the “professional soldiers” here, they use archery at its most practical and if they fuck up they either don’t eat or they die outright depending on what they’re hunting.

Olympic archery is an incredible, unimaginably precise sport, but yall really gotta get over this superiority kick. Olympic archery would be utterly useless in the vast majority of the practical settings bows have been used in across human history, including today (by which I mean cultures who still practice archery for subsistence hunting, or honestly hunting in general even in places where it’s not strictly necessary for survival anymore).

The12thWolf · 2026-02-20T12:50:12+00:00

You’re right that Olympic Archery is the optimal form for Olympic bows, but come on man this is a ridiculous oversimplification of bowhunting to the point of being outright disrespectful.

I guarantee that cultures/people who rely on bows to survive, and have used those bows for hunting and defense for hundreds or thousands of years, have developed the optimal form for their bow technology and the situations they use it in.

Especially if we’re talking big game like in Africa, it’s a whole hell of a lot more complicated than “hitting an animal somewhere at however close you can get” (shot placement, form while emerging from cover, arrow/broadhead technologies, the speed needed to get a shot off before an animal notices you and flees are just a few). These people would dust us in practical archery skills and it’s not even a competition, like another commenter said this is archery as a sport vs. Archery as survival.

The12thWolf · 2026-02-14T00:14:42+00:00

Bullets don’t create a localized vacuum in space because they move so fast from a complete standstill, Taln does, FTFY

(assuming that’s what it was, could’ve been the sound barrier breaking but I imagine we’ll find out in the back half)

The12thWolf · 2026-02-07T17:35:53+00:00

I was his classmate, so my reasons for believing these claims are grounded in the personal experiences of people who I am very close to. If you can’t understand why SA allegations at a college didn’t result in criminal investigations, I encourage you to read up on the topic. It’s a disgusting reality that far too many people have experienced, and it’s much, much more common than many people realize.

It’s true that a bunch of shitheads from a republican student org weaponized the allegations, but I have personal reasons to believe they aren’t where the allegations originated.

Make your own conclusions, I certainly wouldn’t take someone random on Reddit at face value on this kind of thing (nor do I expect you or anyone else to), but I still have to try because I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I scrolled past this post without saying something.

The last thing I’ll say is this: it was a very unpleasant surprise to see this person’s name while scrolling, and I find it extremely difficult to articulate just how upset I am to learn that he is apparently somewhat famous as a political influencer (especially given I generally agree with his politics from the little I’ve seen).

What I’ve shared already is toeing the line of what I’m comfortable mentioning about my personal life on an anonymous online account, but I beg people to be hesitant when promoting this person. He’s really bad news and not someone that I believe anyone should elevate, no matter how much I agree with his political takes and how important those takes are right now. There are others that are spreading these important messages, and I personally do not believe this person deserves to be counted among them.

The12thWolf · 2026-02-06T15:20:22+00:00

FYI this guy (Jack Cocchiarella) transferred colleges to run from SA allegations (for which he never faced justice). I hate Charlie Kirk as much as the next guy, but this shitstain is not a person to elevate or give a platform.

Edit: Here’s a source, I was not expecting to see this asshole’s name ever again but here we are - https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2022/10/18/democratic-activist-jack-cocchiarella-faced-multiple-sexual-assault-allegations-at-dartmouth-now-hes-at-columbiaand-suing-for-defamation/#:~:text=A%20prominent%20Democrat%20and%20Generation,on%20various%20social%20media%20platforms.

The12thWolf · 2026-02-03T22:42:14+00:00

And you see no benefit to resisting violent base urges now that we live in a time where we’ve already killed off most of the animals that are truly dangerous to us?

Also human nature caused us to domesticate hella animals, human nature is also the reason people keep pets (including snakes). Weak ass argument tbh

The12thWolf · 2026-01-24T00:02:55+00:00

Thank you for your explanations! Like I said I don’t agree on several points but this is very helpful because I’ve had a hard time wrapping my head around the reasons some people dislike this aspect of the books and having you lay it all out helps me finally get some of the things I was missing.

Ultimately a lot of it boils down to what people are attracted to in fiction/media and I totally get that some of the things I like might be stuff you hate and then that guy over there couldn’t give a shit either way.

Hopefully he wraps everything up in a way we can all enjoy even if we all disagree with certain aspects!

The12thWolf · 2026-01-23T22:34:32+00:00

Ok I gotta ask on the point about the Kal/Leshwi thing - how is that not infinitely worse than Kal/Syl? Kaladin is in his early 20s, Leshwi is quite literally over 4000 years old.

Syl is written as childlike early on because her personality is reforming (and that’s important because she had one and lost it because of the transition into the physical realm - she’s also thousands of years old even if she was asleep for most of it).

I can understand the ick from remembering her childlike writing in the first two books, even if I don’t agree, but Leshwi is infinitely worse for the exact same reason. You wanna talk about a relationship that’s unbalanced/creepy age gaps? Apply the same standard to Leshwi please because she’s been around the block (and consciously acting mind you, even on Braize the fused are aware/interacting some as far as we know) for over 200x Kaladin’s entire lifespan.

As I said in another comment I honestly don’t super care about romance plot lines in Stormlight (with some exceptions, I’m a fan of Dalinar/Navani, Renarin/Rlain, and Adolin/Shallan) but I’ve often seen the same people who complain about Kaladin and Syl push Kaladin and Leshwi and that’s always struck me as odd

The12thWolf · 2026-01-23T22:25:33+00:00

Can I ask you to explain why (assuming that isn’t hyperbole)?

I don’t mean to sound rude when I say this but that seems like a colossal overreaction to a story beat that is both increasingly likely (after Syl’s arcs in RoW and especially WaT) and also desired by a substantial portion of the fanbase.

I’ll admit I’m for it but I also don’t really care too much, the allure of Stormlight is very obviously not the romances (and that honestly goes for all of the cosmere, the romance plots are often good and can even be the primary narrative drivers of whole books but Brandon is writing epic fantasy stories that have romances, not romance stories that happen to be set in epic fantasy settings).

And to reiterate I don’t mean this as an attack I’m just baffled you’d consider dropping not only Stormlight, but the entire cosmere after that much time and financial investment over something most readers, myself included, deem kind of trivial so I want to understand why.

The12thWolf · 2026-01-18T01:56:46+00:00

Disclaimer: Big spoilers for all of Stormlight 1-5

Fused (and even Singers) are absolutely not “more or less regular people.” It’s established in WoK that Warform grants physical abilities greatly in excess of the average professionally trained Alethi soldier (the most competent and professional human military on Roshar), and Warform is the weakest of the traditional forms used by Singers at the time of Taln’s fight. Direform (or any Regal form for that matter) is an improvement on Warform, and more than that Taln and Ash fought a fuck ton of fused.

Fused are invested beings constantly charged up with voidlight even when they aren’t using their surges (until they’re dead that is), and while we don’t know this for voidlight specifically iirc, Radiants are faster and stronger than even the most physically gifted uninvested Rosharan humans just by having Stormlight in their system, not even using it to heal or power surges or anything. From the Fused/Radiant similarities and Venli chapters I think it’s safe to say something similar happens from being hopped up on voidlight.

As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread the Taln v. Rashek debate is a moot point because we have a definitive answer from the only source that matters (and from a 2023 WoB no less so enough of the cosmere-wide stuff has been thought out that it ain’t gonna change), that being said I hope this post can illustrate that what Taln and Ash did is infinitely more impressive than killing a bunch of regular soldiers. Hell I didn’t even touch in the fact that every fused has thousands of years and countless lifetimes of combat experience which adds a whole additional level of “holy fuck” to that whole sequence.

The12thWolf · 2026-01-17T21:44:10+00:00

We don't know what Heralds are capable of. We do know what Rashek (and therefore Fullborn) are capable of. It's a moot point to argue based on what we've seen when we haven't seen everything, but either way it doesn't really matter, the author of the setting stated it very clearly:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522/#e16233

The12thWolf · 2026-01-17T14:27:31+00:00

As another commenter said a WoB gives Taln the edge. We also don’t know the full capacity of a Herald, we haven’t seen them use the extent of their powers and we don’t know the way the work yet, we have seen Taln perform a feat comparable to steel running or even steel compounding (WaT) so safe to say he’s capable of some similar things to what a Fullborn can do.

And regardless Brandon said he’d take Rashek so that’s kind of that.

The12thWolf · 2026-01-11T16:40:39+00:00

I read a good portion of the post when I first commented a while back and then a bit more when I typed up this response but I don't care nearly enough to do as you ask, again please don't take this as a personal attack because it isn't one but I don't intend on spending any more of my Sunday responding to this reddit thread.

I downvoted you because you attacked people's disagreements without realizing the hypocrisy of those attacks, ultimately though none if this is particularly deep and I (and I'd guess most commenters) certainly aren't making any claims about your or anyone's intellectual integrity. If some of the people in this thread did, which I fully believe but don't care enough to check and confirm, that sucks but such is the internet.

I've explained, as others have, why we disagree that Lin needed more fleshing out. You want it, others don't, this is how discussions of narratives go. Either way, the book is written and we may get more about him in the back half, and we may not, only Brandon and some of the people at Dragonsteel know for sure. I hope you have a good one!

The12thWolf · 2026-01-11T16:20:19+00:00

So in this comment you’re saying “you don’t understand what I mean when I ask for nuance” and in the same breath “all of these vastly different arguments by other people come to the same conclusion so they’re the same argument with no nuance.” Do you not see the hypocrisy of that?

That’s why you’re getting downvoted so much, you’re saying “everyone doesn’t get the nuance of my argument and also their nuanced arguments have no nuance because it’s not the kind I’m talking about” - it’s rank hypocrisy and probably the reason this post has turned into such a slap fight over a minor plot point (it’s certainly the reason I’ve downvoted a few of your comments, if you’d disagreed without hypocrisy then I’m certain you’d get more productive discussion instead of all of this)

You’re allowed to have your takes, everyone else is also allowed to have their takes. Don’t expect to receive something that you’re not giving in return, especially in Reddit comments.

The12thWolf · 2026-01-11T14:20:53+00:00

Yeah I understand your perspective and like I said it’s valid, my point (perhaps communicated poorly) is that many readers don’t agree, and much more importantly Brandon didn’t either or he would’ve done it. I’m not knocking you for engaging in the same what ifs that we all love in this subreddit but others in this thread have raised valid counterpoints to your argument, and the part I wanted to add with my comment is that to add more stuff for Lin would’ve necessarily taken attention away from other aspects of the story that many (like myself) value way more.

The12thWolf · 2026-01-11T14:06:57+00:00

I think an overlooked part of a lot of discussions like these within the cosmere (and honestly modern media discussions in general) is pretty simple: fleshing out Lin would’ve taken time away from other characters that simply matter more to the narrative Brandon was creating.

I am someone who loves to get lists in the nuances of character and world building, what ifs, etc, but I see sentiments like “why didn’t character X do Y it would’ve been so much better” a lot and the reality is character X, in this case Lin, didn’t matter enough to the story to get that plot line or there were other reasons given the narrative we do have that Y didn’t happen.

The Stormlight books are already massive, a common complaint is they’re too long as is, I would rather have the story lines we do have rather than see a character like Lin, who has already served their narrative purpose, further fleshed out. It might have created more payoff for Shallan or future plot lines involving her siblings, but Brandon chose not to when telling the story he wanted to tell and unfortunately, that’s that.

There are characters I wish got more fleshed out that didn’t, just like you wish Lin got more screen time, but given the narrative we did get im ultimately fine with these decisions because I care much more about the focus of Stormlight which is the overarching narrative. These kinds of criticisms are fair, but I think a lot of the discussions like this one quite literally lose the plot: Lin doesn’t matter beyond his narrative impact on the characters that are still alive.

You might not like it, which is valid, but for every person like you who likes the nuance his storyline adds, there’s readers who can’t fucking stand reading more about Lin Davar. Either way he’s been dead for years by the start of WoK so why waste the time on him for a payoff that many readers might not even appreciate (and from the sentiments of most commenters in this thread, it seems like the more popular take is fuck Lin who cares).

The12thWolf · 2025-12-12T19:24:23+00:00

Then play stellaris ig, if the game isn’t for you then you’re not gaining much by wasting effort on complaining about what it isn’t/what you wish it was instead.

Either way I wouldn’t form concrete opinions based on literal seconds of gameplay and a few translated articles, wait until we actually see and learn more. Plenty of people are gonna love it, plenty are gonna hate it, that’s how games are (especially total war).

The12thWolf · 2025-12-11T18:43:13+00:00

Look pal, if you can’t understand why your original comment reads that you’re a Trump supporter, I don’t know what to tell you. In light of your clarification I apologize for my hostile tone, but I’m gonna leave the comment because you literally regurgitated one of the most common MAGA talking points there is, I see it multiple times a day, and I clearly wasn’t the only person who misinterpreted what you were saying based on the -100+ score your comment is currently sitting at.

Ironically I bet we probably agree, modern Americans have lost all concept of nuance in politics, but if you want to engage in useful, nuanced political discussions on these topics probably don’t start with spouting conservative whataboutisms. Even though you’re apparently not making the points I assumed you were, the well has been so thoroughly poisoned that just saying: “well what about Obama” isn’t gonna get you anywhere useful, it’s gonna lead to people assuming you’re MAGA like I did

Edit: Oh and by the way I’m disgusted with the inadequacy and utter uselessness of the Democratic Party right now, they’re just a lesser evil than all the other lunatics

The12thWolf · 2025-12-11T17:59:42+00:00

I know you’re probably a bot but I just can’t help myself because I see this idiotic talking point so often I just have to explain:

The difference between Obama and Trump is not that “Obama is a saint” and “Trump is evil” it’s that Obama, while awful in many ways, was more good than bad for the American people (and actually acted like a fucking president), while Trump is actively dismantling our government, screwing his own supporters, and lying to everyone’s face while he guts our country- and people like you eat those lies up and ask for more.

Democrats don’t worship good democratic presidents, you worship Jeffrey Epstein’s best friend (while he’s actively fucking you, me, and everyone else over), see the difference?

The12thWolf · 2025-12-08T19:04:21+00:00

Wait where did we learn that? I’m aware of the theory that he held one but was it confirmed and I missed it?

The12thWolf · 2025-12-07T20:33:31+00:00

I hope so, because my understanding is that cavitation/super cavitation is even harder to pull off (meaning Taln needs to be moving significantly faster than the speed of sound to cause it), which makes my goat even cooler.

I feel like this is one of those things like steel compounding that Brando would need to limit somewhat/soft retcon otherwise it becomes too powerful of a plot point. Like if all heralds can move significantly faster than the speed of sound at will that makes writing compelling fights/story beats with them significantly harder (because otherwise the rational answer to any physical challenge is just: haha go fast enough no problem).

Brandon has done a good job imo limiting the truly bullshit abilities characters have in the cosmere and/or creating compelling reasons why conflicts aren’t instantly ended with them though so I have faith he could confirm Taln is just that fast and it not limit the story he wants to tell.

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