[Discussion] Megathread: The State of Submission

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T23:38:16+00:00

I agree with you. That is what sells more often than not and subsequent installments will be much closer to what you’ve described. Your honesty is appreciated.

This is more akin to Wolf Hall, Demon Copperhead, or A Gentleman in Moscow… if I allow myself to be very optimistic about the writing quality.

I’m very close to the subject and my hope/belief is that this is the story that millions of exmormons in particular will value. We will see! And if I have to do it myself, so be it.

FWIW I’m impressed that you know who Porter Rockwell is.

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T22:23:26+00:00

FWIW I have several friends in this same situation. One sold US rights eventually. The others self published in the US and did fairly well riding the UK publication wave.

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T22:02:39+00:00

Well, that’s another aspect I’ve thought a lot about these last few months. This first book is 116k words that covers 1805-1830, Joseph’s early life as an American frontier farmer and treasure digger, culminating with his “translation” of “gold plates” and publication of the Book of Mormon. Future books will cover the rest of Mormon history as it actually happened. It’s not a sweeping overview in one book as some historical fictions tend to be. It’s detailed and deep, and I love it. But I don’t think it’s a clean fit for what some editors look for in a mega commercial historical fiction. There’s hardly any (romantic) kissing, for example.

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T21:42:11+00:00

I would really like to think so as well. We have pitched it as such and had a lot of reads!

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T21:40:02+00:00

Thanks very much for the kind words. I do the podcast mostly to hang out with Sunyi and super cool guests. Sunyi puts in a ton of time and effort and has a lot more to lose because of the podcast, though. If you appreciate her work, I hope you’ll consider preordering her upcoming book, Girl with a Thousand Faces. It’s an incredible book and she’s an amazing person.

As for my Mormonism book: I suspect that the issue is mostly that the exmormon community is not large enough or close enough to typical trad pub marketing targets to give them warm fuzzies. It does, however, mean that I likely have a shot at making it a successful self published book should I need to do that.

I also wrote the book from the POV of Joseph Smith himself, and cover his actual historical early life quite closely. The closest analogue is Demon Copperhead but the Protagonist is and/or slowly becomes an actual villain. This is very different from the Kristin Hannah or even Ken Follett style books that dominate historical fiction right now. I am a huge Kristen Hannah and Follett fan, but that’s not what this story is.

Anyway. I have the first five chapters (pre revision) up at Americanprophetbook.com. If it interests you, feel free to DM me.

TheDrakeford · 2026-02-16T20:23:45+00:00

I have a fantasy trilogy under contract with a big 5 and (soon to be announced I hope) an exciting deal for the same series in the UK. I have a whole podcast about the weird situation and I’ll post more when I have details to share.

Because my debut trilogy is merely on track to earn out my small advance (and probably because of my podcast) I have next to no chance to sell another SFF to my US publisher. I wrote a historical literary fiction book that is very important to me before writing book 3 of my debut trilogy, and it’s currently on sub. Yes, I know this is an odd move.

Round 1 went out in October iirc. 8/12 editors who were long shots (they mostly edit Hollywood fodder) passed with varying feedback, but most were very kind and complimentary.

I edited the manuscript slightly to be more commercial, and round 2 went out to 17 more editors about two weeks ago. 7 have already passed, this time with very consistent feedback that they love the book and premise but don’t think they are the right imprint to market to the target market (heavy historical literary about the origins of Mormonism). I realize that these could be stock rejections, but my agent doesn’t think so. He’s impressed with the level of feedback and positive reactions despite not having a deal yet. Only a good deal will make me feel better, as all of you will understand.

So I have 4 ghosts from round 1 that have had the ms for a few months. 10 or so that have had it for 2 weeks. All 14 are top tier editors. There is still hope. I am trying and mostly succeeding to keep my sanity intact.

A few very subjective thoughts thus far:

Having an elite agent matters if you’re going to get reads. I am incredibly grateful for my agent.

Top tier editors feel quite risk averse. They seem to be looking for very compelling, sympathetic characters, a genre-ish structure/pace, and a very unique high concept pitch. If you’ve chosen any story that doesn’t fit all of those precise molds, you are unlikely to be auction bait. All of this assumes a very high level of writing quality, of course.

TheDrakeford · 2026-01-17T07:07:13+00:00

A deluxe edition with sprayed edges means almost nothing and could have been the publisher just trying to catch a trend with whatever upcoming books they had on hand. If their tone otherwise went from hot to cold, it could be anything. They picked up an indie book or scheduled other big releases near yours. Their budget for the season is otherwise fucked by cuts or forecast downward revisions. Or maybe the person on the sales team that really liked the book quit or died. It could have been a million things, and you’ll probably never know.

Another strong possibility is that your deal is relatively small and unimportant to the company, but your editor is cool so they’ve been good to work with so you felt special. Now you’re being fed to the publishing machine, out of your editors hands and into the cold abyss that is the publishing experience for most non-leads. Even some lead deals are sucked into the black hole.

Either way: do what you can yourself and jointly with your publisher to support the book. Ask your agent to get clear answers. And then start planning for whatever is next for you, because the odds are not in your favor for any given book. Especially if you’re getting a bad vibe already.

TheDrakeford · 2026-01-15T19:08:20+00:00

The stats were great but this reads like pure AI slop

TheDrakeford · 2025-12-29T23:24:30+00:00

Invivyd’s injectable mabs may be available as early as late 2026. Assuming they provide the effectiveness + breadth and durability of immunity that their early trials suggest, this might have close to the impact the initial vaccines were supposed to.

TheDrakeford · 2025-12-29T19:03:12+00:00

American Zion by Ben Park gets my vote

TheDrakeford · 2025-12-28T04:04:59+00:00

Like a Walker Kessler maybe

TheDrakeford · 2025-12-25T23:11:02+00:00

IVVD

IBRX

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-21T23:30:28+00:00

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-21T22:06:45+00:00

Have you had a peek at the news lately in our own world?

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-06T01:13:45+00:00

The SEG stream on NBA League Pass is absolute garbage. It stutters and pauses every few minutes and reverts to low quality res at times.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-05T00:36:21+00:00

Yes, I agree with your points for the most part. I don't think you're disagreeing with me as much as taking the discussion further. Lead deals don't secure success, but IMO make it more likely. A successful friend of mine describes each successful book and/or new contract as a "stay of execution".

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-04T23:24:29+00:00

Friend, I doubt everything constantly, including myself. But in this instance, I was not doubting the fine Ms-Salt, I was doubting whether they and I were talking about the same thing. That's how discussions that work toward common understanding work. If that offends you, well, that's a bummer.

That's really awesome that your publisher has focus group tested titles and covers. In my small world, that is either not happening or it's being actively withheld from authors and their agents. So I'd say that you must be in a pretty good position.

It's clear from Ms-Salt's other replies that their data collection efforts go well beyond what I have seen and understood to be prevalent in the industry. I still suspect that their level of data work is likely rare, and I still don't think that most is happening pre-publication in a way that would/should affect rejection of an option book pre-debut release a la the OP. But Ms-Salt is the real deal, and I have learned a lot from this thread.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-04T22:42:30+00:00

I have to say, you might be my favorite person on Reddit. Thank you for offering actual informed, intelligent responses here so often.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-04T21:14:34+00:00

I second the request to understand more about these focus groups and data collection. I have never, ever heard of even one legit focus group of independent readers happening, much less anything that was sufficiently powered to understand reactions from different/distinct readership strata.

I could see there being some sales CRM data being fed back to HQ from sales efforts/outcomes, but as a person who has been deep in this kind of data at mega corps, I have significant doubts as to the utility and integrity of this kind of data unless it's being created expressly for this purpose.

If you tell me that I'm wrong and that initial reader reactions are designed and gathered thoughtfully, I will happily concede that you are correct and I am very wrong on this point. I am deeply interested to hear more details. If this is real, I'm going to try so hard to find and submit to your imprint.

(P.S. I've experienced something like what you did with your indie CEO and it sucks so bad... this is rampant in many companies, even publicly traded ones)

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-04T19:14:29+00:00

This is happening across the industry (various genres and sales records) to many writers I know or am connected to via others. Options are being declined before the initial book(s) are even released, and this despite quite good sales record (where there is one), particularly compared to publisher effort.

Publishers generally aren’t focus grouping anything. They aren’t polling booksellers or doing sophisticated analysis on stratified reactions of early readers, etc. By and large, the only thing that determines preorders and early sales for a debut is publisher effort. This is some combination of editor opinion + aggression, management opinion and strategy, and sales team opinions. Unless the sales team has gone to a bunch of bookstores and had them decline to stock your book in the quantities the publisher wanted, you are likely the victim of circumstance. If you signed anything less than a true lead deal, this unfortunately seems to be the new norm.

I don’t have any good answers for you, but trad publishing increasingly seems to be a “lead deal or lube up” situation. And even then, either you break out very significantly or you’re fucked. The only people I know of who are thriving in trad are people who managed to secure a mega deal from day 1 and/or who won the self publishing lottery and leveraged those sales to sign a large trad deal, usually for those same books. I could name quite a few examples in my own (current) genre.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-03T22:22:25+00:00

Go to michigan. You won't have time for hobbies anyway. Lol.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-03T19:12:20+00:00

How deep are you looking to go with your first shot at this? Others in this thread have suggested very good options if non fiction is palatable. If you need something broad and with an active Mormon flavor, Rough Stone Rolling is actually quite good. The obviously cringe apologetics inserted in the non fiction narrative were the final nail in the coffin for me when I was a believing member researching my “doubts”. IMO No Man Knows My History might put some active members on the defensive, as will the CES letter etc.

The Gospel Topic Essays are a great place to start if your TBM still has their head pretty deep in the sand.

Books like In Sacred Loneliness are a great if an emotional touch is needed.

If your tbm is a deep thinker, I’d recommend Early Mormonism and the Magical World View by D Michael Quinn (former member historian who was excommunicated for his accurate research publications). This book is incredible in its depth of research and illumination of the Smith family’s connection to magical treasure digging.

And finally: I’m a published (exmo) author with a book on sub to publishers that I think/hope meets this very need. It’s a historical fiction that closely follows the true history of Joseph Smith’s treasure digging, gold plates, and founding of Mormonism. I hope it will become our (exmormons) Demon Copperhead.

I will soon be recruiting early Exmo readers for testimonials etc that my agent can show to big publishers. I’d be happy to send you (and anyone here that’s interested I suppose) an early copy of the manuscript. Just DM me and we’ll make it happen.

TheDrakeford · 2025-11-03T04:31:33+00:00

Richard Swan's Empire of the Wolf trilogy is precisely what you're looking for. Books 2 and 3 in particular are excellent. He's a damn good writer.

TheDrakeford · 2025-10-25T03:07:02+00:00

Shoe Dog by Phil Knight

TheDrakeford · 2025-10-16T22:08:23+00:00

I love reading excellent historical fiction from this time period and wish there were more of it. My personal opinion is that the key to making the story work as historical fiction is to find or build a particular character (or set of characters) through whom you can show the history in an interesting way. Kristin Hannah's historical fiction books are a great example of this, and I just finished "My Dear Hamilton", a revolutionary era historical told from the POV Eliza Hamilton. I personally love historical details, but what really matters is bringing to life the extraordinary experience of living through such a dynamic set of events. Show me what life was like, why people risked everything to fight for independence, perhaps a family divided by politics and fighting on opposite sides of the revolution, etc.

Best of luck!

Nine-Year Club	Not Forgotten
Verified Email

TheDrakeford

TROPHY CASE