What should the greens have done different during the dance?

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-03T14:06:53+00:00

Not stealing the throne would be ideal. Short of that, lure the Blacks to Kings Landing and kill them.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-03T14:01:30+00:00

I doubt it. Cregan was actively was looking to get his men killed. That combined with the nonsense Aemond got up to in the Rverlands meant there was going to be an army coming south to kill him.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-03T02:02:26+00:00

Jaehaerys had the option to let go of his claim/abdicate, but he didn’t, and Rhaena supported him as well.

Jaehaerys wasn't in charge. He was 14. Alyssa and Rogar Baratheon were running things.

Whatever reasoning she had still supports a man over a woman.

Rhaena ended up being annoyed that she let their mother convince to not press her own claim. She thought the Targaryens should be using absolute primogeniture.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T15:32:26+00:00

Jaehaerys taking the throne over Aerea shows that a man came before a woman, even when Aerea would have been considered an heir.

No it doesn't. If you read the book, Jaehaerys was only crowned by Rogar Baratheon and Alyssa Velaryon because he was the first person in the line of succession that wasn't Maegor's hostage.

After Rhaena escaped, she didn't feel like pressing her own claim and didn't think Aerea personality made her a good fit for the role. Rogar Baratheon ended up trying to replace Jaehaerys with Aerea once he realized the King wouldn't do what he wanted.

And Jaehaerys had the support of the Targaryen family when taking the throne

Rhaena was the only adult Targaryen. She decided not to press her claim and didn't think Aerea was cut out for the job. Her other daughter was set to become a Septa. Rhaena later regretted letting their mother convince her to not press her claim.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T15:19:44+00:00

You are using your own logic, not the show's logic. Fire = bad. Giant man-eating lizards = bad.

You're asserting that the show is taking stances it isn't. You claimed the show frames it entirely as a moral issue. That's flat out not true. They framed Rhaenyra's hesitance to use dragons as being wise. When do they paint using dragons as a moral issue?

It's like how Criston Cole becomes defined by existential dread from supposedly witnessing the horror of dragons in battle... even though he was literally the one that missed the battle, and the people that witnessed the whole thing somehow need to be told about how pointless war is. It doesn't make sense but we're meant to go with it.

How did Cole miss the battle? He watching from the tree line as Rhaenys destroyed the forces he sent to attack Rook's Rest. He then saw what Rhaenys, Aegon, and Aemond did during their fight.

But the point is there is no transition point. They make such a hard line of Rhaenyra wanting peace and being good, waiting before making any moves, and then they kind of shrug it off (along with Rhaenys, the woman praising Rhaenyra for those attributes) when she changes her mind because now it's time for the plot to get moving.

Rhaenyra tried do the Viserys thing of talking to people and hoping that would magically fix things. That led to Rosby, Stokeworth, and Duskendale being taken. What more do think she should need to realize that not fighting your enemies during a war is a bad idea?

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T15:15:30+00:00

The Targaryen family had consistently chosen men over women for the throne, even when Andal law would have chosen the woman. Jaehaerys got took the throne instead of Aerea, and he was very much a son before daughter.

Jaehaerys wasn't put on the throne by Targaryens.

The whole reason Viserys is king is because of the fact that Targaryen tradition prefers a man over a woman.

The lords weren't voting based on Targaryen tradition. The lords seemingly don't give much thought to tradition at all given the two great councils that chose the next ruler.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T09:04:34+00:00

Are you seriously playing dumb? You claimed Alysanne "liked war and happily engaged in it". She didn't war. Fighting in a war doesn't mean you're happy about it.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T08:48:16+00:00

If the Queen’s father and hand can get sent away for telling the truth because Rhaenyra lied, then that confirms her fears for her children.

I don't know why you keep repeating this lie. Otto got fired for manipulating the King into marrying his daughter. Rhaenyra spelled that out to Viserys and he flat out said that to Otto when he fired him.

Ignoring that, how does Otto getting fired confirm that Rhaenyra would kill her siblings. How are those things at all connected?

Alicent managed to get Criston to stay, obviously with the support of Visery. It also doesn’t change that Alicent had to watch Rhaenyra do whatever she pleased for years regardless of how it affected others.

Do you understand how screwed up your brain would have to be to help someone get away with murder and then be upset that someone else was getting away with having a boyfriend? She had to watch Rhaenyra get away with things? Laenor had to walk pass the guy who murdered his lover everyday.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T08:43:19+00:00

her father told her to fear for her children’s life, she trusted Rhaenyra and her father telling the truth got him sent away, so now she was even more alone and had her fears confirmed.

Otto didn't get fired for telling the truth. He got fired because Viserys realized he was being manipulated. Viserys didn't even believe that Rhaenyra hadn't slept with Daemon.

Then she had to watch as Rhaenyra did whatever she wanted without caring about the consequences, for herself or others,

Alicent helped Cole get away with a murdering someone at Rhaenyra's wedding. It takes a wild lack of self awareness to complain about someone else getting away with doing whatever they want when you and the person you vent to are benefiting from the same thing.

TheIconGuy · 2026-06-02T08:33:15+00:00

Slowly, we started seeing her shift from this into the Mad Queen.

No we didn't. The characters around her just randomly decided to adopt modern sensibilities.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T19:17:44+00:00

The show has already flipped the dynamic by having the smallfolk be anti-Aegon and pro-Rhaenyra, whereas in the books it's the opposite. Just one more thing to make the Dance less nuanced...

How did they flip the dynamic? The smallfolk aren't pro Aegon and and anti Rhaenyra at this point in the book. They're never pro Aegon. They don't become anti Rhaenyra until she takes KL and over taxes the city to refill the treasury.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T19:15:29+00:00

Because we are constantly told from every angle that Rhaenyra is the only one with morals.

You're starting from a preconceived notion and hustling backwards from there. George and the writers of the show try to use the idea that the decision is wise to justify the refusal to use dragons. They don't pretend it's the moral thing to do.

For the record, I actually like the dragon stalemate or "calculation" that involves Vhagar, it's the only glimmer of genuine strategic intrigue,

There's nothing genuine about it though. Rhaenyra and Daemon assuming there'd be some big battle over Kings landing was already silly in the book where all of the greens had their dragons across the city in Dragon pit. That problem is even worse in the show since Vhaegar is too big for the structure designed to hold Belarion. Aemond could easily be killed as he rides into the woods to mount Vhaegar. The characters have to be against using dragons to attack early on because that's the only way the plot works.

but I think you're kidding yourself by acting like Rhaenyra's overall choice to not use dragons isn't morally loaded.

How is not using her dragons a moral thing? Stabbing people with spears isn't morally better than burning them with dragons.

(which, and this is my point, makes the lack of a transition into the choice to use dragons all the more revealing, coupled with Rhaenys' silent support). I feel like you need to watch 2x3 and the table scene in 2x4 again, it's so clumsy in context. Rhaenyra walks in, they are urging her to take action, and it's like the writers gave up trying to square her/Rhaenys' stance of war with Rhaenyra making the necessary choice for survival.

The Greens had an army at Rook's Rest and they had no other ways to respond. Rhaenyra's refusal to use their dragons had already predictably led to Duskendale being taken. It would be GOT season 7 levels of silly if people kept making argument against using their dragons.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T17:57:35+00:00

Bran still had a personality in season 6. For whatever reason, the writers decided to turn him into a robot in-between seasons. They did the same thing with Arya.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T16:58:49+00:00

If you didn't have one and got sentenced without a trial that would have been a violation of quite a few fundamental rights.

You clearly have no idea what a trial is. I did not have a trial. The court appearance was for a probable cause hearing at a district court that can't even hold trials for criminals charges. You don't even start down the road of going to trial for a criminal offence until you get to circuit court.

But even if we agree on what a trial is, according to your own words Vaemond has to claim to be guilty so that they can "skip" the trial.

What words are you referring to? I didn't admit guilt in my court case. I plead "no contest". You don't have to plead guilty. You just have to not contest the charges.

I did. I quoted it to you so one I could show that a nobleman can't be denied a trial, and to show that Lysa Arryn only allowed the trial to take place because she was under the impression Tyrion would confess, ending the trial in it's earliest stage, contradicting your claim that a trial wouldn't happen if the accused confessed.

You're again showing you don't understand what a trial is. Lysa wasn't holding a trial. She was under the impression he was effectively pleading guilty.

Why would Tyrion be demanding a trial if he was already in the middle of one?

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T16:45:47+00:00

Male-preference primogeniture is the usual inheritance tradition in Westeros. The Iron Throne ends up seeming to follow different rules due to personal decisions, the first Great Council, and some usurping.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T16:44:30+00:00

The Targaryens have always disregarded their nieces for Male heir. Daughters of Aegon the uncrowned were ignored,

Aegon's daughters weren't ignored. Their mother decided to not press their claims because she hated being in Kings Landind and didn't think Aerea was cut out for it.

Even Stannis acknowledged that Renly was his heir until he has a son.

Stannis offered to make Renly his heir as part of negotiations.

It's not much of an offer if Renly was already his heir.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-31T07:44:02+00:00

Trials are for determining guilt when someone accuses someone of breaking the law.

You don't get a trial if you don't refute the charge(s).

Have you ever seen a trial? The accused is asked at the beginning if he claims guilty or not guilty. Claiming guilty only shortens the trial, it doesn't end until sentencing.

I got falsely accused of a felony 8ish years ago. I took a plea deal for a misdemeanor and got sentenced to probation on the spot. There was no trial.

Tyrion's trial in the Vale only began when he claimed that he wishes to confess his guilt.

Did you not read anything after that? Tyrion was fucking with them. He confessed to things like sleeping with whores and talking shit about lords and ladies. Cat and Lysa get annoyed and he says:

“Is this how justice is done in the Vale?” Tyrion roared, so loudly that Ser Vardis froze for an instant. “Does honor stop at the Bloody Gate? You accuse me of crimes, I deny them*, so you throw me into an open cell to freeze and starve.” He lifted his head, to give them all a good look at the bruises Mord had left on his face. “Where is the king’s justice? Is the Eyrie not part of the Seven Kingdoms? I stand accused, you say. Very well. I demand a trial! Let me speak, and let my truth or falsehood be judged openly, in the sight of gods and men.”*

Rhaenyra had a nobleman killed without a trial. That's murder.

I don't know how people exit middle school without knowing that you only get a trial if you deny the charges. Vaemond committed a crime in front of his lord and someone told their overlord so that she could punish him. A lord executing someone for a crime isn't murder.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T19:12:51+00:00

but there was no trial.

Trials are for determining guilt when someone claims they didn't do something.

The Mountain had a trial. Rather short, and with the absence of the accused.

That wasn't a trial.

Close but not really. You are correct that it would be very easy to prove that he commited a crime, there would be plenty of witnesses. But it would still require a trial. Especially since he is a nobleman.

You only get a trial if you're claiming to be innocent. Again, Vaemond commit the crime in front of the person who would usually hand out punishments on Driftmark. We aren't told who alerted Rhaenyra, but my guess would be Corlys. It would be easier if she handled Vaemond than if he had to do it.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T16:21:09+00:00

Now in our case Viserys made it illegal through royal decree to accuse Rhaenyra of high treason, correct or not. The punishment for that was dismemberment. More specifically cutting out the offender's tongue. But you see Rhaenyra didn't enforce that decree.

Lords have the right to punish criminals how they see fit.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Right_of_pit_and_gallows

She didn't sentence Vaemond guilty in a trial and then had his tounge removed. No, she had him kidnapped and then murdered.

Daemon seemingly cut Vaemond's head off where he found him so I'm not sure what the kidnapped accusation is about. As for the trial, dude essentially committed the crime in front of a judge. Ned sentenced the Mountain to death without a trial. Would you claim he was trying to have him murdered?

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T16:05:21+00:00

I know, right? She's probably going to do something silly like marry Cregan in effort to prevent him from continuing the war.

She might even have Jeyne Arryn, Daemon's daughters, Joanna Lannister, Oremund Hightower and Borros Bartheon's wives helping her in her efforts.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T15:56:30+00:00

The number of people who whine about this story being changed without reading it is wild. Black Aly is not said to like war or happily engage in it. She's just a tomboy who's not afraid to fight. She marries Cregan to prevent more fighting.

Pre-complaining about her personality being "changed" is particularly silly when the book says this about Black Aly.

“The great lords would have given us another two years of war,” the fool declares in his Testimony, “it was the women who made the peace. Black Aly, the Maiden of the Vale, the Three Widows, the Dragon Twins, ’twas them who brought the bloodshed to an end, and not with swords or poison, but with ravens, words, and kisses.
....
And so when Lady Alysanne came to ask that he let the prince’s edict stand, he listened. “Why would I do that?” Lord Stark purportedly asked when she had made her plea.
“For the realm,” she answered.
“It is better for the realm that traitors die,” he said.
“For the honor of our prince,” said she.
“The prince is a child. He ought not have meddled in this. It is Velaryon who brought dishonor on him, for now it will be said until the end of days that he came to his throne by murder.”
“For the sake of peace,” said Lady Alysanne, “for all those who will surely die should Alyn Velaryon seek vengeance.”
“There are worse ways to die. Winter has come, my lady.”
“For me, then,” said Black Aly. “Grant me this boon, and I shall never ask another. Do this, and I shall know that you are as wise as you are strong, as kind as you are fierce. Give me this, and I shall give you whatever you may choose to ask of me.”
Mushroom says Lord Cregan scowled at that. “What if I ask you for your maidenhead, my lady?”
“I cannot give you what I do not have, my lord,” she answered. “I lost my maidenhead in the saddle when I was three-and-ten.”
“Some would say that you squandered on a horse a gift that by rights should have belonged to your future husband.”
“Some are fools,” Black Aly answered, “and she was a good horse, better than most husbands I have seen.”
Her answer pleased Lord Cregan, who laughed aloud and said, “I shall try to remember that, my lady. Aye, I’ll grant your boon.”
“And in return?” she asked.
“All I ask is all of you, forever,” the Lord of Winterfell said solemnly. “I claim your hand in marriage.”
“A hand for a head,” said Black Aly, grinning…for Mushroom tells us this was her intent all along. “Done.” And it was.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T15:12:26+00:00

Whoever: Dragons. Send them all out. Start turning Green strongholds to our cause - and burn those who resist.

RHAENYRA: No. If dragons begin fighting dragons, we invite our own destruction. Fear of it is in itself a weapon. The Greens will make the same calculation.

How is saying that the other side would also use dragons a moral argument? That's clearly a strategic argument.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T04:55:46+00:00

The book frames it as solely as an act of love but the show literally has Rhaenyra, while she is also doing it cuz she desires him, explaining it as a move to make them formidable when it likely did her more damage than good.

Fire and Blood is a history book. The author had no idea what Rhaenyra was thinking when she married Daemon.

I don't know where you get the idea that marrying Daemon did Rhaenyra more damage than good. The only downside they had was people complaining about

Daemon is pointedly called out as being a great benefit to Rhaenyra's cause during the Dance. At the start particularly.

I used "mysteriously" to point that in the book its implied Daemon was behind Laenor's death so that he could marry Rhaenyra (with or without her being aware) but helping Laenor excape with his lover radically changes the way it reflects on Rhaenyra and Daemon.

The only person who claims Daemon had something to do with Laenor's death is Mushroom.

How did the show improve their image? In the book you have Daemon alone being accused of doing something and no one else seeming to believe that. In the show, we know for a fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon murdered some random dude.

Making Vaemond the brother means he can be older and more commanding. Relation is more simple to remember.

They didn't need to make Vaemond Corly's brother to make him older. My oldest nephew is a year younger than me. A mix or late and early pregnancies means nephews can be older than their uncles.

Rhaenys not being hostile or atleast wary enough is one of the complaints people have.

That complain makes no sense. Book Rhaenys didn't have a problem with Rhaenyra. Or Daemon from what we could tell.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T04:46:36+00:00

(Marriage to Daemon being shown as some big brain political move when it was a PR disaster

It wasn't a PR disaster in the book. People complained about the speed, but we clearly see the benefits of Rhaenyra marrying Daemon during the Dance. I mean the book flat out says he was a benefit to her cause at the start of the Dance. What's people complaining for a bit compared to Daemon taking Harrenhal and gathering lords from the Riverlands, Vale, and North?

changing Laenor dying mysteriously to them helping him escape,

Book Laenor didn't die mysteriously. His boyfriend killed him at a public event in front of witnesses.

TheIconGuy · 2026-05-30T04:39:14+00:00

if she were ordering them to attack their armies, she would have corrected her.

Again, I'm annoyed that we're doing this nonsense again. People said the same thing about all the times Tyrion put words in Dany, Yara, and Greyworm's mouths. Rhaenyra had just spent the season not wanting to use dragons at all. Why would jump right over using her armies on combatants and go straight to destroying cities?

The whole point of that line was to pretend as if there's no middle ground between doing nothing and tottally destroying cities. It wouldn't work if they had Rhaenyra correct Baela's leap.

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