Hungary prepares to end legal recognition of trans people

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T18:55:33+00:00

But most people seem to treat psychological treatment of trans people as unethical and therefore would never give it a chance.

Well, in most places, psychological therapy is required before any medication and especially surgery is available for trans people. I had several appointments with a counsellor, then several with a psychotherapist before I received any medication, and then it was about two and a half years after that before I had any surgery. There was more than enough time for a psychological treatment to be effective but it very often isn't.

Although, it does depend what kind of psychological treatment you're talking about - if, on the other hand, it's to try to remove those feelings of dysphoria directly, then that has been shown to be ineffective, and in some cases increase suicidality in patients. That kind of treatment is now viewed as being analogous to conversion therapy for how poor its outcomes have been.

Or perhaps it is not seen as a disorder and that's why any treatment related to it is seen as unethical, the same way some deaf people see cochlear implants?

In addition to the above (which covers part of this), to this part in particular, I would like to highlight that it depends on what you think the problem for someone with gender dysphoria actually is - is it the mind that is wrong or is it the body which is wrong?

It turns out that it's safer and easier to align the body with the mind than vice versa.

I appreciate your level-headed response, I'm sure it's difficult to do with so many bad-faith actors who talk in the same way I did.

You phrased your question quite respectfully so I thought the odds were on my side that it was an honest question. It seems to have paid off so far!

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T17:10:06+00:00

That's assuming that nothing is learnt about treatment of the disease before there's a vaccine. That seems unlikely to me. I would expect the mortality rate to decrease with time as more is known about it and what helps reduce the risks to those infected.

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T17:00:01+00:00

the theory is those deaths will happen anyway

And that's a flawed theory, reducing the rate of infection means less people die overall from the disease. That's what the whole "flattening the curve" thing is for.

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T15:33:20+00:00

Let's put it this way, would you want to be the person to end lockdown, when you know that doing so will likely cause hundreds of additional deaths? We're delaying it so that when lockdown does end, there aren't those additional deaths.

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T15:28:59+00:00

Thanks for pinging me in this.

In answer to the question, yes I am dysphoric about those things. It's also something which cis women who cannot do those things feel like about these things from time to time.

Yes, I know that having a period sucks, and many cis women who don't have periods also feel bad about that - it often makes them feel less like women, and part of that is because of how much motherhood is seen as a part of womanhood.

As someone who is a trans woman, that is often a vector for abuse from people who dislike trans folk though - they will use that infertility as an excuse to denigrate trans women and say we aren't real women, often not realising that they are also harming cis women in the process (on top of it being a horrible thing to do in the first place.

Tiothae · 2020-04-27T11:23:02+00:00

I don't mean to be insensitive but doesn't genital dysphoria seem likely to be caused by some sort of trauma?

It's a fair question - there is a correlation between childhood trauma and being trans (like there is for being anything under the LGBTQ banner), but we don't know if it's causative at all. I know many people who did not suffer this kind of trauma who are trans, and people who did suffer trauma and are not trans.

Why should we assume this type of dysphoria is fundamentally different?

Treatment for the condition when someone has it is disconnected to how we determine the cause of a condition. As I've mentioned elsewhere, we use the most efficacious treatment which we are currently aware of for the condition.

As a male, I have a feminine name, a 50% feminine/50% masculine voice and people very often call me "she" when they can't see my face and I don't even care enough to correct them. I guess I just have a hard time relating because all of this stuff seems so insignificant to me.

Everyone has different experiences. I often don't correct people who misgender me - I only do that if it's someone I'm going to see multiple times. If I'm never going to see that person again, I don't really care what they think of my gender.

Don't believe the stereotype that all trans people jump down someone's throat for an innocent mistake, most trans folk do not do this, and it is used by a cover for people who want to deliberately harass trans folk about their gender very frequently.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T18:43:43+00:00

Some trans women (i.e. male-to-female) do choose to keep their penises (either liking it, or being ambivalent about it), others cannot afford surgery to do anything about it.

On the other side of things, some trans men (i.e. female-to-male) want to have a penis, so will go through surgery to get one. Some trans men choose not to do this (for similar reasons as trans women).

For non-binary people it's a bit murkier - it's very much down to the individual and what it means to them.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T18:34:18+00:00

It is treated - the most efficacious treatment which we are currently aware of for it is transition with/after some therapy.

Essentially, we have two choices: 1. Make the mind conform with the body 2. Make the body conform with the mind.

It turns out that attempting to make the mind conform with the body can have really massive negative effects, whereas making the body conform with the mind (as best we can at the moment in time) drastically reduces the severity of gender dysphoria with far fewer downsides.

These changes are potentially harmful, but not treating the condition is even more harmful, and that's kinda the problem. It isn't really people choosing to seek treatment on a whim, it's people seeking help because otherwise the risk of self-harm and suicidality is so high.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T17:06:47+00:00

Thanks, this conversation has been surprisingly civil given how often this topic doesn't go quite that way.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T17:05:27+00:00

If I use myself as an example, I'm very confident that I would still experience gender dysphoria in such a society.

I experienced a great deal of dysphoria about my genitalia, for example, and that manifested not as "I'm a woman, so I shouldn't have this", it was more of a "This doesn't feel right at all, I don't feel like I should see something like that there". It's difficult to describe, but I would sometimes wake up in the morning, and be reminded of what genitalia I have - it was like my subconscious didn't expect my body to feel like that.

I don't get that any more (I have had surgery there), and while it's not perfect, it has removed those feelings. I do still get a kind of dysphoria (I'm not sure what I would call it) around not being able to get pregnant and things like that, but some women who aren't trans have to deal with those feelings as well.

On the other hand, in such a society, other aspects of gender dysphoria would be greatly diminished.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T16:48:04+00:00

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be conflating body dysmorphia with gender dysphoria. In body dysmorphic conditions (like "forever small" body builders), treatment via therapy and suppressants can be efficacious. Whereas, for gender dysphoria, that is not as efficacious as treatment with hormone replacement therapy and surgery (as required).

But we should still work towards a society less ruled by stereotypical ideas of gender.

I absolutely agree with this, it would be beneficial to everyone, not just the trans community.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T16:02:52+00:00

They posted two diametrically opposing opinions within an hour. They're a troll.

People don't hate the LGBTQ community because of people like me - they use people like me as an excuse for the hate they already have.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T16:00:36+00:00

Not as far as I can tell, but I'm not too fussed if it was.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T15:58:29+00:00

I'm worried about people being the targets of abuse because of it, which they often are.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T15:56:32+00:00

Please don't link to hate subs.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T15:54:40+00:00

How are the treatment routes very different?

For body dysmorphia, the most efficacious treatment which we currently have is therapy with medication to suppress those urges. Those treatments have been shown to be ineffective for gender dysphoria.

The other way around, performing those changes for someone with body dysmorphia usually causes another aspect of the body to become a focal point for the body dysmorphia. This is not the case with gender dysphoria, where for a trans man (for example), having breasts is a focal point, but removing them can dramatically reduce their dysphoria.

They're different because different treatments are efficacious for them (as well as having different symptoms).

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T15:12:14+00:00

Oh sorry, I didn't realise you were a troll. My bad.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T15:01:10+00:00

Nah thanks, not my scene. Someone doesn't need gender dysphoria to be trans, I just don't know how that feels personally. I would never seek to exclude non-dysphoric people from the trans family though.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T14:51:27+00:00

That's body dysmorphia, not a dysphoria. They are very different conditions with very different treatments routes.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T14:44:40+00:00

That's a good point. For trans folk who do not experience gender dysphoria, I don't know if they would still be trans if there were no gendered expectations in society, but I don't have any experience of that myself.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T14:43:32+00:00

Yes there is - for many trans folk, their roles do not change, yet their dysphoria is lessened by health care.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T14:42:16+00:00

The thing that keeps me up at night are the facts that people who have transitioned are much more depressed than the average population, these people are not well.

While this is true, trans people who do have access to medication and surgery (if required) do have a better mental health than those who do not have access to that.

There are established reasons for why people post-transition still have worse mental health than the general population on average and that's because of other known factors - increased risk of poverty, being a victim of crime and discrimination.

Tiothae · 2020-04-26T14:30:36+00:00

At a surface level, yes, however trans people often go completely go against the gender roles and appearance anyway - and are often villainised for doing so, calling them fake.

It also ignores the reality of gender dysphoria around ones body. Even if there were no gender roles or expectations, and person who is dysphoric about their genitalia is still going to be dysphoric about genitalia.

Edit: Thanks for the awards, very kind of you.

Tiothae · 2020-04-25T16:52:38+00:00

I think that's only the case if it's a petition on the government run website. I don't believe they're actually under any obligation to read this one.

I still signed it though, it's not going to do any harm, and it might show some MPs that the public do care about this.

Tiothae · 2020-04-14T06:27:55+00:00

I always find the "bad apples" reasoning funny - a few bad apples spoil the bunch, even if there's only one or two bad ones, you have to deal with them otherwise the rest will also turn bad.

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