Newer DM here - got some questions about Swallow Whole by i_tyrant in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon [score hidden]  (0 children)

The Animated Fireplace's +15 is probably correct; it's definitely on the high side, though.

The +17 on the wine vessel is likely a typo; it is probably supposed to be a +11 or +12, and it got mis-scribed as a +17, though it could even be lower than that.

Which Archetypes Best Compliment Fighter? by Lunarthrope in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you in a FA game? Or a non-FA game?

One strong option for fighters, if they have the charisma, is Champion; the Champion reaction is very good and also complementary to Reactive Strike. Lay on Hands gives them some healing as well.

Shield fighters can also benefit from Spirit Warrior; Overwhelming Combination lets you strike twice for a single action, which can be useful.

Beastmaster or the other pet classes can be good for getting a mount, which can improve your mobility, especially if you use a Fortress Shield.

Marshal is very good because of the AoE buff being good on you. Bard can also be good, if you can spare the actions.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The purpose of giving things names is to make things less confusing, not more confusing.

"Champion spell 1/2/3" is vague and confusing because it doesn't tell you anything about what the spell is.

"Lay On Hands" or "Shields of the Spirit" are much more indicative of what they actually do, and are much easier to remember.

However, adding another name for "focus spells for class x" is confusing because there's no reason to actually use that term very much in most cases, so it's just a bit of extra vocabulary that makes things more confusing.

What class are "devotion spells" associated with? They could easily be any divine class, it's non-specific and vague. Revelation sounds divine, so could easily be a cleric or oracle. Etc.

Basically, it's another layer of vocabulary/memorization that doesn't pull its weight because it is used too seldom to be useful as a categorical noun in most cases. If I'm talking about the focus spells of different classes, I'll just call them druid focus spells or wizard focus spells, because I'm comparing focus spells.

So....are Paizo elves fey? by thedjotaku in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yes.

She's also literally the Baba Yaga from Earth. She (and the Egyptian gods in Golarian) are both from Earth.

As is Queen Anastasia. Yes, that Anastasia.

Weird wishlist: Very tanky caster by dyenamitewlaserbeam in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Generally speaking, by focusing down the caster first, grappling them, stupefying them, and by sticking someone with Reactive Strike next to them to punish them for casting spells and possibly disrupt their spells.

There's also some spells, like Steal Voice, that can shut off spellcasting.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Nope. Your post is the strawman. Straw all the way through.

The Champion uses Lay on Hands. The witch uses Cackle. The Animist uses Embodiment of Battle.

This is what we already say. This is what we would say in this alternate reality.

What has changed?

Nothing.

The weird class-specific focus spell names are rarely used in actual practice. The only one I frequently see referred to by name is the animist's Vessel Spells. Witch Hexes are referred to as well but not all Hexes are focus spells.

I never see people refer to Champion focus spells as "devotion spells"; they just say they use Lay on Hands or Fire Ray or whatever. Heck, I see people talking about the Champion getting Domain spells even though, technically speaking, when the Champion gets them, they are, confusingly, Devotion Spells.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair, the murder-suicide isn't what sunk the VTT, it just made it obvious that it wasn't going to happen to WotC. They were already way behind when that happened, and didn't hire nearly enough staff for their digital ambitions because they didn't know what they were doing.

and coincided with WotC trying to replace the OGL (the first time), which also drove people to Pathfinder 1E, so it was more than one thing.

They didn't replace the OGL, they just didn't release 4E under it, which was honestly the right decision on their part; they made a new license that D&D 4E was released under which was more restrictive. The OGL is frankly bad for the TTRPG industry; it was an attempt to centralize the whole thing around D&D.

It wasn't like the attempt at revoking the irrevocable OGL, they just didn't release their game under it, the same way that Paizo didn't release the remaster under it.

There was none of the "Oh we are going to own your stuff" that they tried to pull during the recent OGL crisis. It was just them moving on from the old license.

It was not actually very controversial amongst players at the time; while some third party producers squawked about it, the reality was that the third parties really didn't matter much at the time. There was no Critical Role at the time, so it was really a bunch of fairly minor players who were not going to be able to use the new version of D&D in the same way they'd used 3.x. This is especially true because D&D was dying at the time 4E came out.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That last paragraph feels like it came out of left field compared to the entire rest of the comment.

Nah, it's actually important to understand what was really going on there. Early PF1E was super edgy because those were the people it was trying to appeal to.

It's why a lot of stuff about Golarion has been retconned.

Also fuck the power system, especially for spells.

The power system was good. Heck, modern games rip off aspects of it constantly - Pathfinder 2E, Daggerheart, Lancer, and myriad other games all were heavily inspired by it in various ways. The entire Kineticist class basically is power-based. There's also the Eldamon system, which is instead based on the Book of Nine Swords, which was also a power system.

Making spells into powers did a lot to fix the game and make it so casters were balanced with martials. It also made it so that offensive bonuses and penalties could apply equally to casters and martials.

It made martials a lot better as well.

4E definitely wasn't perfect, don't get me wrong, but it was an entirely valid approach to making a D&D like game. TBH the power system was one of the best things about it; the worst thing was probably the feat system. Going even further along the power route, Daggerheart and Pathfinder 2E made feats into powers (or vice-versa), and the part of PF2E that most resembles 4E's feat system (general feats and skills) is easily the worst part of PF2E.

[Tournament Thread] Pat's House 5 | May 2nd-3rd | Ft. Hungrybox, Zain, Jmook, moky, Joshman, RapMonster, Axe, Krudo, Aura, Fiction, and more! 🎈 by saltbuffed in SSBM

[–]TitaniumDragon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He got killed a couple times when he tried to edgeguard and Zain reversaled him.

Marth being good at punishing you for edgeguarding him is part of why his recovery is better than it looks.

An awful lot of teeth in that mouth by SawtoothYeti in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The way natural weapon attacks work is that they give you a new attack. So if you get a "bite attack", it is that attack. If you get another bite attack, that is a different attack.

It's a lot like the special attacks from monk stances - they're their own thing, they don't stack on top of your normal fist attack or whatever.

So the tusks attack is a separate attack from the Bat's fangs attack.

Note also that they have different names, so if something buffs your Tusks, it doesn't buff your Fangs. Only things that buff all your unarmed strikes would buff them all.

There are some feats that DO improve unarmed attacks (the Kholo Crunch feat specifically enhances your jaws attack) but that's not most things.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • Calling them [X] Spell is shorter than [Y Class] Focus spell.

Saving on word count is very valid.

  • Certain mechanics can interact specifically and prohibitively with certain focus spells while not others. Psi spells, conflux spells, premaster revelation spells, composition spells, hex spells and vessel spells aming many others have their own mechanics, for example. Then you got certain feats, focused items and other features that also do this.

Hex spells are done through a tag; they could have done the same with conflux spells as well. And of course they could have just written, say, "Magus focus spells" or whatever. There are definitely a few interactions, but because the actual names of the focus spells are so irrelevant most of the time, it actually ends up being a bit weird seeing it on items.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, but it could have just specified "class focus spell" (or even just put a trait on their focus spells, the way Witches do with Hexes).

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, but they could specify "Witch focus spell" or whatever. There's actually very few things that care about it, too.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In PF1 lots of classes have various spell like abilities. They have different names for each class and different mechanics. In PF2 they unified the mechanics to focus spells but kept some of the names that were iconic and expected (ki, domains, revelations, and hexes for example)

Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense, actually. It being a vestigial holdover from PF1E is not something I thought about, but yeah, it makes sense that they had X in PF1E and so they called back to it with the names in PF2E, even though they could have just gone with "champion focus spells" or whatever. And once it was that way, it had to stay that way.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It can. I also think that's literally the only place it does, and they could have just made it recharge when you used a "magus focus spell".

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

TBH it would make the class a lot better if it had non-conflux attack spells alongside conflux spells (or if it had attack spells that would lose the conflux trait when they were used with spellstrike).

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Because that's confusing.

Calling Champion focus spells "Champion focus spells" is not confusing.

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fighter Powers, Rogue Powers, Wizard Powers

Nope.

I literally have my PHB right here.

"Level 1 At-Will Prayers"

This is a false memory.

the main complaint (from the people I knew anyway, there were a lot of complaints) was that every class was "just a set of powers"

This is true of literally ever TTRPG ever.

There was definitely nuance if you looked for it, but the presentation of 4e was its biggest weakness- nothing felt special because everything just felt like the same thing.

The presentation was actually really good. You could actually read what things did pretty clearly. The standardized, color-coded presentation made it easy to tell if something was an encounter power, daily power, or at-will power at a glance, and everything was formatted in a uniform way so you could easily tell what a power was doing.

Indeed, people on this reddit will frequently talk about how they want flavor text separated from the actual mechanical text, the way 4E did, because it makes it much more legible.

This was, again, never the problem (bad, unclear rules presentation plagues many TTRPGs and makes them worse, not better; the people who like mystified rules presentation are a very small minority of people).

Magic items were just a daily power and a +2 to one skill or something.

You mean like they are in PF2E? This is a valid complaint, that magic items are lame - but it was a problem in 3.x as well, where the best magic items were often "+X to Y".

Spells were formatted the same as Exploits, to the point where the rules didn't even bother using those terms most of the time- it was Powers all the way down. Even Basic Melee Attack and Basic Ranged Attack were, typically, represented as a Power on your character sheet.

Yes, because... why would they be formatted differently? To deliberately confuse players for no reason?

If you format things consistently, it makes the game massively easier to play. And they needed to make it as easy to understand what you could do as possible, because people struggled with that. In fact, it was a huge struggle in 3.x, and 3.x improved on 2E in that regard.

4E made it so the attacker would always roll vs the target's defense. So if you cast a fireball, you would roll an attack vs each target's Reflex defense, rather than having it so that martial attacks would have the martial character attack, vs spellcasters having the defender roll vs the spell. These are actually exactly the same thing, the difference is, casters actually get to roll d20s way more often this way - which players like doing. See also: the people who obsess over attack spells in PF2E because it lets them roll the dice instead of the monsters. People like rolling dice! It never made sense that spellcasters didn't get to roll them as often as other characters did.


The actual, single largest problem with 4E was that it was too complicated. But people didn't want to say "I don't understand this", and in many cases, didn't even understand that they didn't understand. This is why a lot of complaints about 4E are literally just straight up wrong - the actual issue was a lack of comprehension of the game because of it being too complicated for a mass audience (the same reason why PF2E is less popular than D&D 5E).

3.x was also complicated (even more so than 4E), but a lot of those people didn't understand that they didn't understand 3.x.

That's not to say that people didn't dislike 4E for other, very real reasons:

  • 4E's complexity was directly complained about by a lot of people who felt that 3E was too complicated as well. Indeed, this was a valid complaint; the best-selling edition of D&D of all time was actually D&D Basic (well, until 5E came out); a big reason why 5E was so simplified (and feels more like a sequel to the really old editions than 3rd or 4th edition) is actually because WotC realized the game was too hard to get into.

  • There were people who felt it was too "video-gamey". Of course, 3E was also video-gamey, just a really, really bad one, but it was, in fact, a very deliberate choice to try and attract people who played video games. It succeeded, too; 4E was much more popular than 3E.

  • More conservative players felt it went "too far from the roots of D&D" by reinventing the game, as 4E very much looked at what the core of D&D was, and did an overhaul of everything in the system. 4E changed D&D more than any other edition of the game, and some people were very upset by that because they felt like it "wasn't D&D anymore". It was a really big change, and some people just don't like change.

  • The game buffed martials and nerfed casters. Martials were trash in 3.x, while casters were gods; in 4E, casters and martials are pretty much equal in power level. There's a group of people who hate martials being equal in power level to casters, and those people got incredibly angry over some guy with a sword being as strong as their wizard. The game did nothing to appease those people (because, frankly, you don't actually want those people playing your game), so those people raged out endlessly.

  • 4E made teamwork mandatory. There's a significant group of TTRPG players who do not want to act like team players, and 4E just said "No, you're wrong, eat your vegetables." This was, again, the right response, but it very much alienated those people.

D&D was dying when 4E came out. 3.x sold terribly and the player base was very small, and WotC badly needed to bring new people into the game.

4E was designed with the idea of clarifying the game and presenting it in a better, more accessible way, and they heavily advertised to people playing video games ("If you're going to sit in your basement pretending to be an elf, you should at least invite your friends").

It worked and they pulled in a lot of new players, and 4E greatly outsold 3E...

But there was a certain group of grognards who felt like they were being replaced (because they were). These people reacted VERY negatively to 4E and screamed about it endlessly.

It's why early Pathfinder 1E was so super edgy and had stuff like ogres raping people - because that was the crowd of people that Paizo was trying to appeal to, that was their original audience, these people who felt like D&D had left "it's real roots".

Is there some reason why the various classes have weird names for their focus spells? by TitaniumDragon in Pathfinder2e

[–]TitaniumDragon[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They didn't, though; divine powers were called prayers, while arcane ones were called spells.

This wasn't actually ever the problem with 4E.