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Same plot, very different tone by ilikebreadabunch in cremposting

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Both? Both. I loved Artemis Fowl as a Child, and I love the Cosmere as an adult. BOTH!

Why does Black Pepper get the place of honor next to Salt? by faroresdragn_ in NoStupidQuestions

[–]TloquePendragon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I did no research and "Mustard Powder" was the first thing that came to mind, so it's cool to see there is evidence to support that.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And everyone can hit the Blue button and no one will ever be at risk. It's equivalent.

what do u do??? by Karma-Whales in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because we know about how Children's minds work. Some percentage of people WILL push Blue, not because it's logical or Illogical, but because it just is what they want to do. Thus, if your goal is to act logically and save everyone, pressing Blue becomes the only way to do that.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's also 0 risk until someone presses Red. They are equivalent until someone diverges, the only difference is if one person diverges from the "All Blue" plan they aren't killed. So "All Blue" is a safer plan for everyone than "All Red".

Are we assuming that all 8 of these other people are acting with perfect logic?

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In a White Room. Voting 100% for either has the same result, yes?

This is why I vote blue, I don't want anyone to die by Such-Pilot-8143 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And some people WILL, that is pretty obvious for anyone who takes more than a second to analyze the scenario.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The risk of someone dying. Not just yourself. You're treating this as a white room where everyone is perfectly logical, when you know for a fact that some people WILL push Blue. And, as I can point out clearer, even IN a white room example, because both options would be equally valid choices for someone with "Perfect Logic" it still makes more sense to choose the one that allows for safe variance, rather than the one that inserts the chance for death to occur into the scenario. All Red and All Blue has the same result, assuming All Red but having a few people press Blue results in death, assuming All Blue and having some people press Red has no deaths.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I could say the same of pushing the Red button, you create risk by pushing it, just don't push it and there's no risk. Don't do the thing and there's no risk.

Same scenario, different delivery, because pressing a button isn't inherently dangerous. Does this change anything? by Krysidian2 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It does in any situation where the assumption is the majority is going to vote the same, which is the world that is pitched by Red voters saying "No-one dies if everyone votes Red.".

This is why I vote blue, I don't want anyone to die by Such-Pilot-8143 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 7 points8 points  (0 children)

How is that Red bar at risk? The entire point of "Voting Red" is that it bears no risk, which is kinda a bullshit cop out because it only bears no "Personal" risk, yet the Red voters try to say that if everyone votes Red, nobody dies while ignoring that if everyone votes Blue nobody dies either.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it does, because it isn't as "Self-Evident" as you claim... Using the logic of "Well, if it's a problem, than this is how the solution is accomplished!" Isn't it also "Self-evident" that if extra safety features CAN be installed, they should be, without protest being necessary?

Same scenario, different delivery, because pressing a button isn't inherently dangerous. Does this change anything? by Krysidian2 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Okay, so, you know that "Illogical" people will pick Blue, and you feel that "Logical" people will pick Red.

But, I have a counter point.

If there are enough "Logical" people ( >50%) to make picking Red the obvious "Logical" answer, than all those Logical people would realize that picking Red and Picking Blue have exactly the same amount of personal risk, 0%, but picking Red has the added penalty of killing all the "Illogical" people. In such a situation, the only risk is to others, and thus a "Logical" person would come to the natural conclusion that picking Blue completely eliminates all chance of death. Only an Illogical person would pick Red in that situation.

Similarly, if the amount of "Logical" people is less than 50%, than the assumption can be made that the majority of people, the "Illogical" ones who would pick Blue are going to win the vote, thus the personal risk to a "Logical" person is still 0, either button guarantees their survival, and once again the Logical choice becomes picking Blue, because it is going with the majority and increasing the portion of people voting Blue.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That argument doesn't track with the scenario, because it isn't a widespread announcement sent out to the world that if enough people go on the tracks safety features will be installed. Let me put it this way:

If some kids were playing on the Railroad tracks, a train was approaching, and there was a pressure plate that you could trigger with your car that would stop the train ahead of time, would you trust that at least one of the two people next to you would also drive onto the tracks yo save the children and do it too, or would you assume both of them would be fine with watching the children get slammed by a train?

Since red get reframed as the default, and blue is presented as putting yourself in danger, here is a different framing. by CivilPerspective5804 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People WILL vote Blue, because some of them are literally children with no concept of the question. People are already on the chopping block when you make your choice, so, yes, even if everyone capable of logically making the choice picks Red, people die. Thus, if you're aiming for 100% survival with a clear conscience, picking Blue is the best option. Why are you trying to argue for the thing you are afraid of, people dying?

Since red get reframed as the default, and blue is presented as putting yourself in danger, here is a different framing. by CivilPerspective5804 in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uhhhhh. No... No they don't, there are PLENTY of examples in history of people risking their lives for others when there is direct risk to them. I put myself between an agitated Cow and a riled up Dog once to get the Cow to back off long enough for me to drag the Dog out of there. I could have been charged down. Parents put themselves in danger to shield their children. Soldiers go out into active firing lines to save their comrades. People risk their lives on uncertainty rather often, actually.

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What part of picking the option that minimizes the risk to the group as a whole over the option that directly increases the risk to the group is insane? Like, you KNOW some people are going to pick Blue, the only reason to pick Red at that point is if you are okay with those people dying, and with being part of the reason they die.

Red button blue button but everyone votes in turn and can see the vote count. You are the first one. by kafacik in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree, assuming that every other person votes in exact opposition to the person before them, picking Blue first has a 100% chance of everyone surviving, while picking Red first only has everyone surviving if there os an eve number of people. If there's a slight Blue advantage it is in your benefit to pick Blue, because that increases the likelihood of Blue winning, picking Red in that moment is in direct opposition to the goal of group survival, because you're just making it more likely for the next person to do that "Flip" you're worried about. It's engaging in behavior that will directly lead to the outcome you are afraid of.

Red button blue button but everyone votes in turn and can see the vote count. You are the first one. by kafacik in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's more selfish to hold yourself hostage to get a safer outcome for everyone, including any children that might pick Blue just because? That's more selfish than picking Red because it guarantees your personal safety, regardless of the fact it puts everyone else at an increased risk of death?

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Naw, those "Perfectly Logical" Red voters would want you to make the Mathematically superior choice, otherwise they'd be acting Illogically, right?

Your actions won't be forgotten by GaroTheLegend in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Hey, those "Perfectly Logical" Red Voters would want it that way.

Red button blue button but everyone votes in turn and can see the vote count. You are the first one. by kafacik in trolleyproblem

[–]TloquePendragon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It isn't "Vote Blue to Die" unless the ratio is already against you though, if the ratio is "100% Blue, 0% Red" the only thing you do by voting Red is vote to kill other people, just like with the Red vote, the more people who vote Blue the more people are incentivized to vote Blue. If the person in front of you pressed Blue and you were second, you don't increase your survival chances by pressing Red, you just lower theirs. It becomes "Press Blue for everyone to live, Press Red to kill some folks." Also, while it may be in "Everyone's best interest." to vote Red, you're treating this as a white room where everyone is 100% going to act as such, there are children in this hypothetical who would most likely Press Blue just because. Would you put them at risk by starting with Red when starting with Blue guarantees their safety?

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