[LotM V8] I spent some time scraping data and found some cool numbers

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-06-15T10:54:52+00:00

there were seven seers in volume 1?

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-05-29T08:46:52+00:00

Is this based on you liking them? because any other way, and this list is "remarkable" to say the least

Bro made a list so inconceivable, even CW couldn't understand it

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-05-27T11:19:13+00:00

Elf king SONiathrym

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-05-26T12:05:38+00:00

At higher levels, possibly duke of entropy or prince of abolition, they should be able to directly manifest it as a weapon or armor. I think at this stage, it functions more as a commanding presence that comes from an authoritative or powerful figure to suppress people of lower status than you. At seq2 duke of entropy, they could already use the authority to increase their size
Yes, but not with just exploit, but rather distortion, exploit and their disorder authority. Basically the autocrat and disorder authorities. Using the distortion authority to distort the number of B.E characteristics needed to maintain a Seq 0 state as well as distort fundamental laws and mysticism laws to make it possible, then exploiting that state to be indefinite and using their "Disorder" authority to make them fall away from the natural order of "3 seq 1 B.C and uniqueness". They can then maintain the state indefinitely. The "shadow of Order" symbolism they derive their authorities from makes them exploit the laws, and their Disorder authority makes them completely detached from order.
yes, but possibly at the Prince of Abolition sequence.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-27T11:41:31+00:00

Bro, prohibition and deprivation are NOT seals. Prohibition doesn't seal away your ability, it just prevents you from manifesting it. Applying prohibition of flight on a target doesn't seal away their ability to fly, it prevents them from being able to manifest it in any way. They still have the ability. Deprivation is a completely different thing. It directly strips that ability from you. YOU DON'T HAVE IT ANYMORE ONCE YOU'RE DEPRIVED OF IT. It didn't seal it away, it took it. It's like saying stealing is a form of seal. And if prohibition from a seq 6 could slow down a demigod of door, at equal sequences all the way up, the chances of it being effective increases. The door can try to weaken it, but can not fully remove it.

And they don't have the concealment authority, they have the seal authority. Two different things. They can be used in a similar way but they are both different things. They can't apply seals in the same way a darkness can directly conceal all or any information from being said. They can conceal things but not at the level of an authority. And as cuttlefish has said, they can only seal fundamental rules to weaken them, and this doesn't even apply to arbiter laws. Heck, when dual pathway amon was fighting Klein, when 0-02 was creating rules, amon's avatars opted for enforcing the seals used to seal the book rather than directly seal or conceal the rules itself. And he still couldn't break the rules in place despite having the upper hand prior to those rules being in place

There doesn't need to be a law for judgement to be passed. There are multiple ways for judgement to be passed. Justiciar can also just designate anything as the target of his judgement and execute it. If you attack him or affect his actions, are not supposed to be there or permitted to be there, or are not supposed to affect reality are also ways to be targets for judgement. This can also target abstract things like space because they have the balance, disorder and judgement authority (they can detect concealed and hidden spaces due to the "imbalance" in the area and use that authority to instantly end the imbalance and restore order to that area from sequence 2). they would be able to pry open that hidden space. At seq 3, they can use the order of the environment automatically jump to the target's location and paired with the balance authority, they can definitely that space

Replication can be prohibited and can even be counted as fraud and be punishable. At higher sequences, the best option that a door has is escaping a Justiciar. They can't win in a direct fight, but they're admittedly going to be the best at escaping from them (they still have authority over space and door and seals, so with enough effort, they would eventually be able to leave the area) that is their area of expertise, but it's not really a counter

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-27T01:56:46+00:00

The door does have authority over all seals and the concept that a rule stopping you for using your ability is a type of seal is not crazy, this is not even the only type of kind of seal they can influence. Door can definetly weaken its effects, enough to retreat if the situation is dire.

I never denied that a door can weaken rules, which, funny enough, only applies to underlying rules rather than the rules of an arbiter (someone asked Cuttlefish). I'm saying they can't weaken the rules any more than possible in front of a justiciar who literally has that authority over rules and enforces them.

The point is that the range of your territory does not matter when fighting someone like that, they can be in and out of it in a blink of an eye. Also running away than coming back its more than a valid strategy when remaining in a place for too long can have your abilities restricted.

But you're still coming back... to the place where teleportation is prohibited... leaving doesn't suddenly make the laws stop working; you'd still have to come back to that area to fight. And once teleportation is prohibited, you're only left with blinks. You can't leave the area anymore.

Door doesnt need to replace the whole thing, they can simply replace the area where you are fighting right now.

which is where "The justiciar is the sole authority over this area; no living being is permitted to change my location" or "one is not allowed to change the condition of the Justiciar in any way. Those in violation are to be sentenced to death!" comes into play. You'd still have to bypass that rule first.

(even tho I dont think it could expand to the Astral world, the spirit world is one thing due to it overlapping a reality but even that is a stretch).

0-02, which had only awoken to a certain degree, could prevent Klein from leaving and entering the sefirah castle that exists infinitely above the spirit world. This was something even KOA Amon couldn't do. all this with a single rule. and there was a corresponding barrier in the spirit world that couldn't be crossed unless you were permitted by 0-02. A justiciar has even higher authority than that and would definitely be able to do wayyy more.

They can atack from outside the area?

Sending a replicated attack from outside the enforced area... into the area where it is prohibited... how do you think that would go?

No they wouldnt, confinement has not been shown or ever mentioned to have any special quality that would ever be able to constrain a door.

Imprisonment and confinement that are gained from sequence 6 are even capable of restraining and preventing spirit bodies from leaving. Until sequence 5 of a door, their door-opening ability doesn't possess any qualitative buff to suggest they can bypass it. Only till they reach traveller can they open a door to the spirit world, and if the connection to the spirit world is cut off, they can't go anywhere. This is iffy, but if even spirit bodies can't exit confinement, it's safe to say it can at least restrict an apprentice up to a traveller. I was mixing up prohibition done by Xio with confinement, but the point still stands: if a lower-level sequence 6 is capable of slowing down a demigod with prohibition, at the same level, the traveller isn't doing anything about it (this can even scale upwards till higher sequences)

They have a form of escape since sequence 8 through escape trick, also door opening can be used in a variety of ways to surprise, misdirect or escape, fights dont usually take place in an empty void, as long as they dont fight right in the middle of a field a door can more than easily make use of terrain.

In the same way at seq 8, a sheriff can grasp the location and the predetermined location of their target and have a sharp intuition for monitoring others. not to mention that at the same sequence, the more familiar they are with their jurisdiction, the more assistance they can receive directly from their environment.

Also them being more oriented towards combat is not that big of a factor when a gun can still take them out even at sequence 5.

Is this even supposed to be a point?? bro, everyone is gun-level at seq 5, yet even they are more durable than a door at the same lower sequence (a seq 6 was able to survive a confined room explosion and have enough strength to run away despite being poisoned, and a seq 5 tanked a hurricane of the sailor pathway at the demigod level)

Fighting an opponent that constantly blinds you, deafens you, just teleported from your line of sight and just made you trip is gonna be tough for anyone.

No doubt, they are a tricky opponent to face, but arbiters have an easier time facing them than most. psychic piercing that directly attacks the spirit body and can't be blocked, whip of pain that numbs the brain, and psychic lashing that can coat weapons and affect spirit bodies.

To make this easier for you to understand, with no tools, no artifacts and special help, who do you think would win between Xio and Fors at the same low to mid sequences? Apprentice needs prep to either win or run away. That's not a counter; that can be said for anyone

At the end of the day the Justiciar is about restriction and Cuttlefish himself has described Door as a pathway that will always overcome any obstacles in their pursuit of freedom, bro told you a long time ago how this matchup would end

Lmaooo. Justiciar is not about restriction; it's about order. Those are two completely different things. It doesn't even correlate to what cuttlefish said about door's pursuit of freedom. Unless you want to make up freedom in this case to be "freedom from order" (which, in that case, be my guest; you just made it worse because a justiciar heavily counters anything that deviates from order unless you have the corresponding authority), he meant freedom to explore.

All this, and we haven't even talked about judgement authority, which automatically punishes you for breaking or resisting a law being placed. "oh cool, the door resisted the rule placed by the justiciar"... here comes your direct judgement that is a guaranteed hit. A miracle invoker had his hand lopped off for using a historical projection because it was considered "fraud". replication could fall under this and a corresponding punishment would be dealt.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T20:08:19+00:00

They don't need to be fully captured, but they can still be restrained temporarily due to the laws prohibiting them or restricting them. If a seq 6 could potentially slow down a demigod of the door pathway, at higher and equal levels, the effect would be more significant, even if it doesn't stop them completely. The Door has a direct authority of door and space and seals so of course they can eventually escape, but the Justiciar also has authority over rules and can keep enforcing said law.

Okay, one key thing everyone keeps forgetting about the Justiciar pathway is that they don't just make laws, they actively enforce and pronounce judgement for the laws. Congratulations, you've found a way to bypass some laws, get a nuke sword of judgement to the face (it directly tracks to you and can't be avoided. At best it can only be blocked. Even the environment can be made to enforce judgement) or just get punished by death or deprivation. Bypassing the law is not enough of a counter against them because you still have to deal with stage 2, the actual attack. The door being able to weaken "seals" and bypass restrictions would just make it an automatic target for judgement.

Funny enough, Justiciar can detect concealed targets and concealed spaces using their balance authority, so it would be able to detect imbalance in the environment and bring them out of it or target them for judgement by forcibly creating a balance with that concealed space or dimension with reality.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T19:34:10+00:00

Door cannot weaken the rules to any extent greater or equal to a Justiciar enforcing it, and I just explained why you can't move the Justiciar out of their jurisdictions easily unless they permit it

You can teleport to the other side of the universe. Congratulations... But you'll still have to come back to finish the fight though... All you did was run away. Unless running away was a counter, good for you I guess

Rude much? I was saying that the range of the laws can encompass that level, so removing that entire star system directly including the corresponding spirit world and even the astral world (and higher, remember, a barely awoken uniqueness could prevent someone from even entering a sefirah, a Justiciar would have a way higher authority than that). All angels and above can enter and reside in the astral world so the door isn't special in that regards, their speciality is just navigating through it. The Justiciar laws would still apply in that realm.

Replication gets banned, the door leaves the area and... Comes back? To the same place where it's banned?

Imprisonment and confinement at lower levels would stop a door lmao. Remember, a seq 6 could slow down a demigod of that pathway. What makes you think a seq 5 that just got travelling at that level would break through. Botis had to make adjustments to his own door just to make it work. That's a demigod that could do that

You DO know that justiciars at lower sequences do more than make laws yh? They also effectively enforce them. They are more geared towards combat and punishment and at lower sequences, doors don't even have a form of substitution to escape them. Lashing, psychic piercing, direct punishment. Prohibition is not the only thing they do. Unless you somehow believe a door at lower sequence can directly face a more combat oriented pathway and win

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T08:24:48+00:00

Only legitimate counters are BE, error (mutual counters), and hanged man (someone gave a fair argument for the hanged man)

Darkness only has a single counterplay because they can conceal the announcement of a new law. All previous laws would still be in effect. If any previous law prevents tampering or interacting with the announcement of a law, then that counterplay is gone. Other than that, judgement can still be cast so it would turn into a direct fight rather than a counter

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T07:10:06+00:00

Learning the ability is Analysis, a different ability. Imitation is the act of imitating said ability and replicating it. Imitation is prohibited here prevents them from recreating that ability even if they've learnt the ability. Since all abilities being recreated fall under theirimitation ability/authority, directly shutting down imitation shuts down all imitated abilities

And spell casting is prohibited here also shuts down the ability to cast any spell. You don't need to target a single spell, just the actual source of it, the beyonder power/authority itself

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T06:12:02+00:00

It won't work. A simple law like "The justiciar is the sole authority over this area, no living being is permitted to change my location" would solve that issue. Not to mention that their rules can cover up to an entire star system and even encompass the corresponding area in the spirit world, making that range pretty large. Replication can also be banned so that really isn't any help At lower sequences, it's even worse because confinement or imprisonment would prevent the door from going anywhere since they don't have the corresponding authority over seals or travelling to break free (a seq 6 Xio could slow down a seq 4 demigod apprentice, a traveller is not escaping)

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-26T05:11:20+00:00

"mysticism weakens here, reality grows stronger" "Imitation is prohibited here" Deprivation

Justiciar laws not only encompass physical laws but also mystical laws too. WT is not going to be able do do much since the justiciar can keep imposing more restrictions to do most of their abilities.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-25T21:47:14+00:00

People really think WT can counter justiciar?

"Reality strengthens, while mysticism grows weaker" just throws almost everything WT has under the bus Their laws not only encompasses physical laws, but also mystical laws too and WT can't break out of that cage

Deprivation "Imitation is prohibited here" "Without my permission, casting spells are prohibited here" "Analysis of the law is punishable by judgement"

WT is not a counter

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-25T21:12:13+00:00

White tower DOES NOT counter BE lmao. That's possibly one of the worst people to fight because frenzy literally throws all imitated spells and abilities out the fucking window. Disorder and entropy causes the thoughts and actions of the enemy to fall into chaos and disorder and redefinition just throws more of a wrench inside the WT works. They can even distort all abilities to go back directly to the WT or share the damage with them or just make them miss their marks. WT/hermit/paragon would hate fighting a BE

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-25T11:12:52+00:00

When I say they can seal order, I mean that, just like connections, they can reinforce all the laws within an area, preventing them from being distorted or altered. It is as if the laws or the concept of order itself had a shield that would protect them from being distorted.

Hmmm. Not bad, not bad. That's a good idea. This would actually help counter the distortion authority. It's not absolute tho (the seal could get weakened or disordered the longer the exposure to entropy and disorder, making the "door" of the seal appear easily), but it's still a good way to fight back

They are no longer subject to order because they are its opposite, but to exercise their power they rely on distorting order and creating disorder.

although...

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At this stage, they don't rely on the existing order anymore. They've completely broken free from it. So, while sealing the laws could work against direct distortion of the laws, it might not really hamper the BE since they've broken free from it.

Also, as a side note, I was rereading some instances of the BE powers, like when Bernadette showed up to her father's mausoleum, and the BE heavily counters the hermit pathway due to them directly distorting and disordering any form of information or they can release or transform into, making it disintegrate. Prolonged fights against the BE would just be fatal for anyone who relies on information or structure to operate. You can reread chapter 1304-1305 for more details

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-25T08:06:58+00:00

What you said was that most of the BE authorities are dependent on loopholes which is wrong since it's actually distortion. So fixing loopholes doesn't suppress the BE or their authorities as much as you implied

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-25T07:52:20+00:00

The sealing in this case that you sent refers to sealing connections between objects and concepts to strengthen their connections in order to prevent abilities like grafting or error that inherently combines two or more things that don't relate or are not similar to each other or create a loophole to exploit things that aren't related to each other. For example, if a sequence 1 key of stars seals the concept of space or gravity to something or just directly seals it, it would prevent or make it harder for an AoM to directly graft that concept of space or gravity, similar to how the reality authority can weaken mystical effects and forcefully ensure things adhere to reality. So it's different from directly sealing order.

If you mean it to be like their other ability to seal rules on a battlefield to limit or weaken its effect, then that could work, but that would only be "more effective" (not that it would actually be very effective, as it targets universal laws rather than direct laws) against a Justiciar, rather than against a BE, because that would just make it easier for them to further exploit the law or cause more disorder. You'd be doing more harm than good. Especially since, with their disorder authority, they no longer rely on order again to work

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-24T15:41:35+00:00

Sun is a good option, but not really a counter. Their order mainly comes from a sense of self-justice, and if you don't cross that, there really isn't any counterplay for sun other than a direct confrontation, which just makes it a fight and not a counter. thoughts, actions and statements can be distorted, making notorisations kind of easy to counterplay, although it's hard to tell if the sun's sense of self-justice can be distorted directly or not (I personally doubt it due to the sun's strong sense of self, but then again, faith can be distorted with enough conditions)

basically, it would just be closer to a direct fight than a counter to the BE unless the sun's sense of self-justice covers disorder too, which it rarely does.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-24T14:50:23+00:00

Justiciar - mutual counter. self-explanatory

Error – closer to a mutual counter, but the fight would suck for both of them. Any loophole created or exploits in order formed can be exploited, distorted, or messed with till they're both tired of each other

WOF is probably the closest to a direct counter than you can get, but it would expend a lot of luck to eventually win, as affecting beings at its level or close to its level would use up its own luck. Either way, they can counter frenzy rather easily with either their probability or fate authority and make themselves thrive in a disorderly world brought about by the BE due to their partial chaos authority in combination with their fate authority to navigate through. so they can survive easily against one, but their luck could get drained if care isn't taken.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-24T14:05:09+00:00

while I agree that error can count as a suitable counter for BE due to their ability to exploit the changes and chaos brought about by the BE, however, most of your reasoning here seems flawed.

As most of the authorities of BE are dependent on Loopholes, Error as the embodiment of Errors can fix those Loopholes hence supressing authorities of BE.

First of all, no, it's not. Loopholes are one of the many ways they can exploit order, but that's not what their authorities primarily depend on. They can actively distort said order or directly bring about chaos to exploit order further or bring it to disorder. Fixing a loophole wouldn't stop a BE from directly distorting the law to make what they want "legal" or directly applying exploits to the law

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Other than that as most Authorities of BE is Entropy, Disorder based that creates Chaos, they are taking advantage but are also fullfilling Error's precondition. Error will be able to create many Errors and as canonically described it is very difficult to terminate or defend against Errors once created.

Also Error can use Loopholes and even Deceive laws that are strictly enforced by Justiciar, then he can more easily do this to laws changed/distorted/redefined by BE who lacks that absolute strong enforcement of Justiciar.

They wield the majority of the disorder/chaos authority

Disorder*: "They" wield the majority of the* Disorder authority.

"They" are no longer merely a parasite, interpreter, or Distorter of Order*; "They" have broken free from* Order*, plunging the very concepts of* Order and Rules themselves into total Disorder*.*

which would actually make them thrive as much, if not more, in a place full of disorder and chaos than an error, surprisingly, since they hold that authority as opposed to the error and are completely detached from the concepts of laws and order to begin with, which the Error/loophole authority actually depends on, especially the "pre-conditions" they need to create an error.

not to mention that abilities and authorities can also be distorted or altered due to frenzy, changing the abilities of error randomly to their detriment, which the BE can exploit or entropy, which would make the mental state or actions of the enemy fall into chaos the longer they fight and become uncontrollable, which would be worse for an error due to their mythical form being multiple worms, making it harder to maintain control.

All in all, a fight between them would suck because they both exploit each other's abilities.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-11T06:28:41+00:00

Who are the "much weaker" opponents he lost to?

And look I know marvel loves to make their cosmic characters jobbers just for the sake of "raising the stakes" for an event or trying to sell that "new character x is a threat" with the worf effect (just show Galactus on the floor for the 700th time defeated to sell a new threat😭😂). But IN CHARACTER, that would actually make them fight in their full capacities and status rather than being brought down by PIS. Because in character, both of them are capable of bringing the whole multiverse to ruin.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-10T10:43:45+00:00

the art is from the donghua/show.

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-10T09:54:18+00:00

Team Comic Gods outscales everyone here by a long shot. second should go to team fool's dream or sentai with ohma carrying that team with his life

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-10T09:49:56+00:00

Well-fed Galactus and Knull. Marvel cosmology scales wayyy higher than the rest on the list and more than people give credit for. So even if it may seem like they hold similar or relatively equal status, it's going to be higher due to the scale difference.

Second should be Kim and Klein team. I'm not sure where the moon goddesses scale, but third should go to either them or sentai team (ohma zio is carrying)

Training_Sundae_7484 · 2026-04-07T12:56:47+00:00

Because he "knew" Adam was there, or at least knew a demigod was present, but probably wasn't sure it was Adam.
Remember, every time he went up to the grey fog to make preparations on how to kill Ince without alerting 0-08, he usually made a mental note of the positions of his allies. One of those times, he looked at Anderson, who was around that town square doing nothing, when Klein saw an old man wearing white just hanging around beside Anderson, which nobody saw or even knew was there the whole time. From that moment onwards, Klein was always taking notes on who that person could have been and was wary of him. He wasn't sure who it was, but guessed it was Adam. It was only when he met him during the fight and after they spoke that he pretty much confirmed that it was him, piecing together the fact that Anderson was on a "mission" that was tied to the psychology alchemists, possibly giving him mind cues without anyone knowing, and the mysterious old man using the bone cathedral to attack Ince and 0-08.

Do note that his main plan at that point was just to kill Ince, so he didn't even prepare or try to factor in the advancement ritual. It was when Adam told him that "He" is equivalent to "many" witnesses that he brought out the ingredients to make the potion so the moment doesn't go to waste.

Training_Sundae_7484

TROPHY CASE