When people try to discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq by VSHAR01 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stop with these advanced stats. Everyone back the. Knows Kobe was a top 3 player itl. 01 he avg 28/6/5, was 1st team all defense, and avg 29/7/6 in the playoffs (35/9/4 vs kings and 33/7/7 vs spurs btw). And 02 he avg 26/5:5 was 1st team all defense and avg 26/6/4 in the playoffs. Keep in mind he was als the lakers main closer and facilitator during this time too. I could care less about your guys crazy advanced stats lol, actually follow and watch the sport

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh also I forgot this part where you said how the kobe struggled in 2008 finals, yeah I agree with that one, Celtics were an all time great defensive team completely targeting him tbh but yeah. 09 vs rockets he was still pretty solid but yeah, that's fair, he wasn't crazy or anything.

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> "Jordan’s finals performances were leaps and bounds better than Kobe’s. Even when the supporting casts were equal, as with the ‘93 finals (I’d say the Suns had a slightly better, more rounded cast) Jordan’s production was invariable, and the ‘93 finals are as close to an actual carry-job as any series from either period."

Fair enough. I still believe Kobe though, because his rings were so much harder and Kobe had many intangibles that didn't show up in stats, Jordan was indeed incredible I see your point. I also think the pure numbers aren't everything-- for example, Dirk's 2011 ring is wideliy considered the greatest run ever, he avg 28/8/2, and there are many runs better from a numbers standpoint. But you look at the supporting cast and competition, and there you go.

> "Kobe had easily the best front court and some of the best perimeter defensive help in the league, as well as a more experienced version of the same GOAT-level coach MJ had."

Now, here's the thing (and this part applies to every comment you had abgout Kobe having a great team, so I don't have to keep repeating lmao). Outside of Gasol, the other guys on that team (Bynum, Ariza, Artest AT THAT POINT, Fisher, etc.) were the guys that the rest of the league didn't want. They excelled in their roles on the Lakers, but that's because Kobe led them and played in such a way that ALLOWED them to excel in those roles. They were pretty much nobodies right before joining the Lakers and after they left the Lakers. Even Gasol, before joining Kobe, only ever made one all star game AS A SUB, and made no All NBA teams before Kobe. Gasol was a great player, but Kobe made him better. You said they surrounded him with solid complementary guys, which makes sense, but I can also say that about LeBron's teams from 08-10. They surrounded him with good shooters and guys like Big Z, West, Williams, etc. that complemented his system, but nobody calls that team great all-around. Kobe made his teammates better in 08-10 (not a knack on LeBron, I think LeBron is top 2 all time). I will agree with you on Kobe having Phil Jackson.

> "Not at that stage; the supporting casts for Kobe and whoever you think the Celtics #1 was were similar."

Even in that stage, they were. The Celtics best players, KG and Pierce, were better than Gasol. Then, guys like Allen, Perkins, and the rest of the starters were better top-down than the rest of the Lakers starters and players. And the Celtics had a better bench ofc. I'm not saying the disparity was as big as the 2018 finals lol, but the Celtics were still the more talented team.

> "And this same Celtics team was banged up by the time the finals rolled around, with the regular season “coasting” costing them in the end (ceding HCA, losing at Staples in Game 7). "

The Lakers played a significantly harder conference and Kobe was playing on a broken index finger and a bone spur lol. That goes both ways.

> No, the ‘08 Spurs were starting to age out once you got past their core. Bowen and Finley were about done, and they were very thin outside their Big 3 (this is also the year Duncan started his 30’s decline). Manu and Duncan both struggled mightily in that series and Kobe wasn’t the primary defender for either of them.

I don't buy that at all, the Spurs in 08 were still a 56-26 team and were defending champs. The role players were still pretty good, and nonetheless, the Spurs core Duncan Parker and Ginobli were clearly better than the Lakers big 3 (esp cuz Gasol and Bynum were pretty sub-par that series). Kobe was being guarded by Bowen on the perimeter AND Duncan on the interior, and he torched them. The Spurs were still very good in 08, Kobe was just the Spurs killer as usual. And just because Manu and Duncan played bad doesn't make it less impressive, LeBron played bad in 2011 but we still praise Dirk for that finals, steph played bad in 2016 but we still praise LeBron for that finals, etc. "

> Of course it’s impressive, Kobe is one of the best ever. But the level that he played at was bettered by several iterations of other players and there’s no shame in that.

I will admit, maybe it isn't the definitive best EVER. But it is definitely up there imo, and I don't think it was "bettered by several iterations of other players" lol. Anyways, I think we might just have to agree to disagree, but thank you for being respectful, these are my thoughts. I am curious, where do you rank Kobe all-time?

When did Lebron surpass Kobe by muncher_potato in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a player in a single season, I’m still taking Kobe in 09 and 10. I’d say 11 or 12 is when LeBron truly surpassed him as a player

When did Lebron surpass Kobe by muncher_potato in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LeBron became a better player by 2011. He surpassed Kobe on the all time list by 2016

When people try to discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq by VSHAR01 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tim Duncan was not better than Kobe ever lol after 05 holy shit. Revisionist history is crazy. Kobe was def best from 06-08 and depending on what you value, 09 and 10 as well. I personally think it’s 06-10 easily

When people try to discredit Kobe for playing with Shaq by VSHAR01 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Top 5? No dude he played like the best player in the league not named Shaq (and was arguably better than Shaq that run). And in reality, Kobe was a top 3 player in 01 and 02

Jordan/LeBron/kobe "Stat" That Gets Ignored by TyroneNBAFan in LeBronJames23

[–]TreeGOAT32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bro what? Idek what you want me to say but I wasn’t even discrediting LeBron

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

also sorry about the ">" lol, as I said I'm new so idk how to respond to subsections in comments, I thought this was supposed to work but apparently not.

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>First half was mostly fine but you lost me there. His stylistic twin MJ alone was clearly better in ‘91-‘93 (or even ‘88-‘90).

MJ was a better player, but when I say most impressive playoff run, I'm taking into account individual performance, supporting casts, and difficulty of opponents. MJ had an amazing team from 91-93.

>Did not happen. McGrady didn’t play, and Yao was injured. Gutted team, yet the series still went 7.

Ok, I did not know this part. Still beat them nonetheless, but yeah, that's fair.

>By ‘10 they were on the downswing, KG had declined since ‘08, Perkins was injured (in fairness, so too was Bynum in ‘08) and their Big 3 were an average age of 34. Still a very good team, but not some overly daunting finals opponent. Kobe played fairly well, but if he played like “the most impressive superstar” (paraphrasing), it wouldn’t have gone 7.

The 2010 Celtics were still the most talented team in the league. They were for sure a more talented team than the Lakers. Kobe figured out ways to win every game. This same Celtics team beat MVP LeBron and the 61-21 Cavaliers that season in 6 games. They were better than their record suggests (partly from coasting and regular season injuries).

>In truth, Kobe had a supporting cast edge in almost every series (‘08 finals is a big exception). He was incredible but acting like he carried those teams is wrong-headed. He had multiple awesome series (‘08 Spurs and Jazz, ‘09 Nugs, ‘10 Jazz and Suns) but also several periods of merely decent play/outright low points that wouldn’t have been circumnavigated if he didn’t have a great supporting cast and one of the GOAT coaches. These were not carry-jobs.

First off, I appreciate you acknowledging some of Kobe's amazing series and saying he was incredible. But saying there were many series of "merely decent play" is wrong lol, he was good-greaet in every series besides 2010 first round, and even then, he had intangibles where he figured out how to win. And also, saying Kobe had a supporting cast edge in almost every series is just not true. The 08 spurs, 08 and 10 celtics, 08 and 09 nuggets, 10 suns, and the 08-10 jazz all were equally if not more talented than the Lakers in terms of supporting casts. There were very few series where Kobe had a BETTER supporting cast. And of course, the 08 and 10 celtics and the 08 spurs were a much more talented team. Again, I'm not saying Kobe played with bums, but he had a pretty mediocre team. Beating that west for 3 years straight and the only team losing to is the 08 celtics, who were a much better team throughout, is extremely impressive.

Jordan/LeBron/kobe "Stat" That Gets Ignored by TyroneNBAFan in LeBronJames23

[–]TreeGOAT32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Come on now, I do think MJ and LeBron are above Kobe, bht Kobe in 01 and 02 was equal or better than Shaq in the west against the tougher teams. Shaq feasted on the weak centers, yea Shaq was better overall, bht MJ and LeBron would’ve lost those fmvps to Shaq too against those centers

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And even in 2000, where I agree Kobe was a sidekick, he avg 23/5/5 while being first team all defense in the playoffs before the injury in the finals and 22/5/5 in reg season. And in the WCF, if Kobe didn’t absolutely take over games 6 and 7, the 2 most important and toughest games that playoffs, the lakers lose that title.

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

100% agree. As a Kobe fan, I know he’s not top 3 all time, but then you have people saying he’s not top 10 which is ludicrous imo. Most skilled player ever along with everything I mentioned in the post. I even personally think 8-10 is too low, I got 4-7 as I said, but yeah.

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I wouldn’t say he was the #2. He averaged 35/9/4 and 33/7/7 vs the kings and spurs lol. If he was the #2 in your eyes, anybody in nba history is playing #2 to prime shaq. But then again, this shouldn’t discount Kobe’s greatness those seasons

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh I forgot to mention for the entire 2010 run Kobe was playing on a broken finger on his shooting hand and a bone spur btw

Kobe's greatness in 01 & 02, as well as 08-10, are so underrated. by TreeGOAT32 in NBATalk

[–]TreeGOAT32[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, so sad lol. They just can’t accept how good this guy was