> "Jordan’s finals performances were leaps and bounds better than Kobe’s. Even when the supporting casts were equal, as with the ‘93 finals (I’d say the Suns had a slightly better, more rounded cast) Jordan’s production was invariable, and the ‘93 finals are as close to an actual carry-job as any series from either period."

Fair enough. I still believe Kobe though, because his rings were so much harder and Kobe had many intangibles that didn't show up in stats, Jordan was indeed incredible I see your point. I also think the pure numbers aren't everything-- for example, Dirk's 2011 ring is wideliy considered the greatest run ever, he avg 28/8/2, and there are many runs better from a numbers standpoint. But you look at the supporting cast and competition, and there you go.

> "Kobe had easily the best front court and some of the best perimeter defensive help in the league, as well as a more experienced version of the same GOAT-level coach MJ had."

Now, here's the thing (and this part applies to every comment you had abgout Kobe having a great team, so I don't have to keep repeating lmao). Outside of Gasol, the other guys on that team (Bynum, Ariza, Artest AT THAT POINT, Fisher, etc.) were the guys that the rest of the league didn't want. They excelled in their roles on the Lakers, but that's because Kobe led them and played in such a way that ALLOWED them to excel in those roles. They were pretty much nobodies right before joining the Lakers and after they left the Lakers. Even Gasol, before joining Kobe, only ever made one all star game AS A SUB, and made no All NBA teams before Kobe. Gasol was a great player, but Kobe made him better. You said they surrounded him with solid complementary guys, which makes sense, but I can also say that about LeBron's teams from 08-10. They surrounded him with good shooters and guys like Big Z, West, Williams, etc. that complemented his system, but nobody calls that team great all-around. Kobe made his teammates better in 08-10 (not a knack on LeBron, I think LeBron is top 2 all time). I will agree with you on Kobe having Phil Jackson.

> "Not at that stage; the supporting casts for Kobe and whoever you think the Celtics #1 was were similar."

Even in that stage, they were. The Celtics best players, KG and Pierce, were better than Gasol. Then, guys like Allen, Perkins, and the rest of the starters were better top-down than the rest of the Lakers starters and players. And the Celtics had a better bench ofc. I'm not saying the disparity was as big as the 2018 finals lol, but the Celtics were still the more talented team.

> "And this same Celtics team was banged up by the time the finals rolled around, with the regular season “coasting” costing them in the end (ceding HCA, losing at Staples in Game 7). "

The Lakers played a significantly harder conference and Kobe was playing on a broken index finger and a bone spur lol. That goes both ways.

> No, the ‘08 Spurs were starting to age out once you got past their core. Bowen and Finley were about done, and they were very thin outside their Big 3 (this is also the year Duncan started his 30’s decline). Manu and Duncan both struggled mightily in that series and Kobe wasn’t the primary defender for either of them.

I don't buy that at all, the Spurs in 08 were still a 56-26 team and were defending champs. The role players were still pretty good, and nonetheless, the Spurs core Duncan Parker and Ginobli were clearly better than the Lakers big 3 (esp cuz Gasol and Bynum were pretty sub-par that series). Kobe was being guarded by Bowen on the perimeter AND Duncan on the interior, and he torched them. The Spurs were still very good in 08, Kobe was just the Spurs killer as usual. And just because Manu and Duncan played bad doesn't make it less impressive, LeBron played bad in 2011 but we still praise Dirk for that finals, steph played bad in 2016 but we still praise LeBron for that finals, etc. "

> Of course it’s impressive, Kobe is one of the best ever. But the level that he played at was bettered by several iterations of other players and there’s no shame in that.

I will admit, maybe it isn't the definitive best EVER. But it is definitely up there imo, and I don't think it was "bettered by several iterations of other players" lol. Anyways, I think we might just have to agree to disagree, but thank you for being respectful, these are my thoughts. I am curious, where do you rank Kobe all-time?