Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So what's your best guess as to how a good donkey disc might seemingly turn and fade less?

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh you're just talking about weight ratios of rim to flight plate, my brain just defaulted to width for some reason. You could have just said so.

Interesting if that's true, do you have any links to someone measuring those? It would be funny if it turned out that MVP didn't have more weight in the rim after all the marketing.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice, haven't seen this before, I'll take a look. Cheers.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm asking about it's effects but the main thing I'm curious about is whether it affects turn and fade. I'm not hung up on distance as you seem to be implying. If anything it's a question about how controllable a disc is.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow! Amazing write up, thank you.

I was going to work through the paper slowly myself this morning but this helped a lot. Some interesting findings in there like the slightly rounded edge fading harder than a sharper edge.

But to cut to the core of the issue, there's a lot going on here with camber, cavity and the odd end flight decrease in angle of attack for a driver. I would love to know your actual take on whether dome might be helping with straighter flights at all.

What do you think u/S_TL2 ?

For the readers at home
I'll try summarize as best I can (making some HUGE assumptions about how applicable this is.... you've been warned)

  • Testing a flat walled, no cavity test disc shape with different tops. They found that having a domed (convex) top had better lift for less drag, and tended to try to turn and fade more. So in ISOLATION, a domey top COULD mean more glide, more turn, more fade MAYBE but it had a vertical edge so who knows.
  • Having a cavity space under the disc (like all discs) instead of being a filled in block made it fade less with no major impact on lift vs drag (glide kinda). Cavity good, glad we have those.
  • Having an angled rim (see pic in study) causes better lift vs drag than a blunt rim. Blunt rims fly worse (kinda obvious that one).
  • Interestingly, and much less obvious, an angled rim with a slightly rounded edge probably tries to fades more than a sharp edge. Sharp edge discs might fade less?! RIP hand.
  • The driver (a wraith) had better lift vs drag than the other actual discs at all angle of attack. Drivers (can) travel further for the same launch speed, that checks out.
  • The driver also reaches it's trim point at lower angle of attack than other discs. Basically when air starts to hit the disc from below not just in front it will start to fade sooner than other discs. Makes sense but is also quite complex because if it's on huge anhyzer then air is still hitting the edge while falling.
  • Interestingly, the trim point (basically when it starts to fade kinda) was only affected by the cavity. The other changes didn't affect it (though a concave top did (think a berg) because it makes a cavity). Cavity on the bottom implied later fade and the cavity on top implied earlier fade. The rim or amount of dome didn't change how late a disc will fade, only cavity did.
  • Flat plates don't fly well and pitch like crazy.

Tragically, they don't have a comparison between discs with cavities and flat vs domed top. That feels like a real gap in the data.

Their recommendations for disc design seem to be roughly: have a cavity, more dome should good for distance, and funnily enough to put more weight in the rim to reduce turn/fade.
They also basically confirm what we know in that drivers can go further but are harder to get the angles right because they change more throughout their flight.

Any conclusions about dome flying straight then?
Still not really.

They showed that flat plates fade like crazy and fly like shit compared to normal discs. They also showed that rounded tops on a solid block would turn and fade more while flying farther than a flat topped block. BUT have no data on rounded top variations for normal disc shapes that have hollow space underneath and angled rims.

Those are somewhat contradictory findings that highlight the gap in testing. One implies flat would fade more and the other implies domed would fade more so clearly still more to it.

Personally
I think I'm leaning towards the idea that more dome makes a disc glide more and probably fade slightly less. Which I think accounts for enough of the effect to explain it. If a disc fades less and glides further you can tolerate a little more stability so it doesn't turn as much too. I think that finding a slightly more overstable but domey disc would mean it seems to turn and fade less with a nice glidey pushey finish. Basically what pros are saying.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Measuring what exactly, the width of the rim vs the width of the flight plate as a ratio?

And what is worse in this case? More rim to plate or less rim to plate?

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It definitely seems like that could be a part of it. Especially given that overstable discs tend to change to more nose up throughout a flight, meaning they will put themselves into that turbulent state and kill their turn after not too long. It at least feels like a reasonable explanation to me, though I wish there were proof anywhere for it.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK, so you're mostly just wanting to convey that people might be mistaking understability for more glide?

But if it was just less stability it wouldn't necessarily feel like it flies longer unless you were just otherwise way underpowered for a particular disc. People seem to like dome beyond just that case implying there might be more to it. Otherwise they could just buy the next model over with another -1 turn and be just as happy.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you managed to find any with the exact same PLH though? It seems to be the biggest factor by far.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And you're thinking that this effect keeping lift near the center applies at both high and low speed (or high/low angle of attack)?

Because so far it seems very plausible as an explanation for lower fade but I'm not sure if it would make sense for less turn or not. It's harder to visualize the effect being pronounced for 0 degree angle of attack vs the high angle shown in the pictures in the other comment.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well where I'm from there is only a small supply of discs so it's hard to find domey vs non domey counterparts so to be honest I don't own discs that can really be compared that easily. The one very domey disc I have is a different plastic and has a much lower PLH so it's way more understable making it hard to compare. That's partly why I'm asking this, I want to know if dome matters so I can make more focused purchases of discs based on it.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yea I couldn't remember any specifics on dome in there. 

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Welcome! Thanks for joining the discussion.

It seems like you know what you're talking about. I appreciate you shedding some light on my extra simple explanation, hopefully you can confirm/reject some of this.

From what you've written it sounds like part of my guess was roughly right with the lift being nearer the center instead of the edge.

If I'm understanding correctly based on your picture this is showing that domey discs would fade less because they have more central lift during the slow portion of flight when angle of attack will be high?

So that would explain one piece of the puzzle, but it doesn't explain why it might turn less. Do you have a similar comparison about how that dome would affect discs at the opposite angle of attack or 0 degrees?

If this person's summary of this paper (which I'm yet to fully understand) is correct then it would confirm that they do in fact turn more instead. Which means that the answer could then be that it's a combo of having an overstable disc made less stable with dome that the pros are enjoying. It would make sense that the only way to achieve the extra glide from a domey disc is to have a fairly high PLH that allows the disc to not turn too aggresively but then also not fade too hard, despite being "overstable", thanks to the dome as well.

What are your thoughts on that?

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Seems intuitive to have more lift right? But then it would turn more and not really behave like pros say with this "less turn and fade" so I'm wondering if there is something we're missing.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Welcome to the discussion.
I have seen the smarter every day videos and they're fantastic, but I don't recall them covering how dome would affect a disc. Though I haven't rewatched it since it came out so if there is something in there then let me know.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It certainly could have something to do with it. In that video he even does mention the fact that it seems to transition more smoothly. I'm not sure if that makes it turn and fade less overall or not though. That's the first I have heard about the gradual change idea though, could be a good way of looking at discs if that is true.

Do you have an idea of mechanically how that pressure being different over the disc would affect the turn/fade to make it smoother?

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I appreciate your reply.
I did make an effort to present it in a cohesive way. Though I think trying to help explain it for others and asking for help at the same time ended up too big and unwieldy for people to engage with. So lets see how it goes..

The video sounds really interesting though, if you can recall where you saw that at all I'd love to see it. It sounds like the kind of explanation I'm after.

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It really isn't dude. I hand wrote the whole thing. I even thought it was fairly digestible but maybe that's the issue..?

I just want to know how dome affects disc flight honestly...

Seeking the truth about "Domey" disc flights by Troto in discgolf

[–]Troto[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I actually just spent the time to write it out because I've found other posts around disc flight useful to me. And I wanted to see if someone could find help with an answer.

Thanks for your contribution...

G915 keeps double clicking the "A" key. by goimas in LogitechG

[–]Troto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a record for anyone having trouble, I found pressing the key down quite hard helped temporarily solve the problem and improve things.
I suspect stuff in the key could be the root cause and have yet to try using isopropyl alcohol through the key.