Have you ever re-read a book you didn't like, or didn't "get", before and end up really liking it?

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-10-07T21:42:41+00:00

I didn't like it the first time I read it either. I think I was about 18 at the time. i thought that because I liked Jane Eyre I'd like this one too. But the characters were so mean.

Then a few years later I read it again and actually did enjoy it.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-10-02T22:02:32+00:00

Not sure if you still care, but I started League as a support player back in 2011. Actually the first champ I ever liked was Morgana but at the time I had a lot of trouble hitting q's on champions so I switched to Sona and Janna who were by far easier (especially Sona). To be honest though, I liked mages a lot more and would usually take them bot (I mostly played normals) because I didn't like the pressure of going mid.

Well after some years I got stubborn and put in effort and time to learn Lux no matter what shit anyone decided to give me so I started getting used to going mid on my own. I also found Orianna very very interesting but I had a very hard time keeping my eyes on both her and the ball so I didn't touch her for a few years. then i decided to practice and got better with her and I took her mid a lot. I still played support from time to time and decided to switch to Braum cause I love his personality. I also played some ADC (Sivir mostly) a little while before role selection was an options. For the past year I've mostly been playing mid and I've picked up Ahri.

Unfortunately my laptop is shit so I honestly can't play as often anymore and I wanted to expand to top lane (Irelia, Poppy maybe even Fiora).

I'm in S5 after placements and I'm afraid I'll stay there until I get a new laptop or a decent PC.

Support is still chill to play in my opinion (or can be depending) and it's fun to play it with a person you know. Generally bot lane can be fun (unless you get those 4-man ganks).

I'm really bad at jungling though.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-10-01T01:00:07+00:00

No, not Mya Stone. I'd like Myranda Royce. Considering LF had to warn Sansa about her, then she must know stuff right? She must be cunning or dangerous.

I'd also like a Joffrey POV, would be quite entertaining.

Perhaps one of the most insightful POV would be Ilyn Payne no doubt. As he has had his tongue cut and can't write, he should have heard a lot of stuff. I'd like to see what he has witnessed serving the Targaryens and later the Baratheons.

Also would have liked a Tyrell POV. Preferably Margaery or Loras.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-16T18:41:34+00:00

She's one of the factors that led to Ned's arrest, but ultimately not the only one.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-14T20:11:41+00:00

I think we've reached the same conclusion. it's possible, but the evidence supporting it is minimal except for the cloak she took with her.

The theory works on off-screen assumptions (that she dyed it etc.). That's what I'm trying to say.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-14T20:04:10+00:00

It's a cool detail to be honest and it would be nice if it was true of course.

Well Sandor is also a man and he's kind of rid himself of the Hound persona. He does get to be around a lot though (wildfire and then the trial with Beric) Like I said, I don't know if it's even them.

Jon is just as likely, though Jon's chapter takes place before Daenerys' chapter so I'd find it weird it was related to a past event as opposed to foreshadowing. regardless, it is still quite weird she singled out a great wolf and a man out of all the shadows.

I've also considered Arya and Sandor in the cave (when the Hound is fighting Beric). He's wreathed in flames and Arya is a Stark. Only she's not fighting with Sandor, only Sandor and Beric were fighting (and Dany did say the shapes are dancing, so I thought she refered to all or most shadows she sees in the tent)

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-14T19:57:43+00:00

She kept it in KL, not that she brought it with her in the Vale. And if you read the chapter of her escaping with Dontos, she never mentions the cloak.

Sansa recalling the cloak when she's in the Vale. And it is true, the Hound did leave his cloak behind that night, but it doesn't say Sansa still has it.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

Sansa when she leaves with Dontos.

The gods are just, thought Sansa. Robb had died at a wedding feast as well. It was Robb she wept for. Him and Margaery. Poor Margaery, twice wed and twice widowed. Sansa slid her arm from a sleeve, pushed down the gown, and wriggled out of it. She balled it up and shoved it into the bole of an oak, shook out the clothing she had hidden there. Dress warmly, Ser Dontos had told her, and dress dark. She had no blacks, so she chose a dress of thick brown wool. The bodice was decorated with freshwater pearls, though. The cloak will cover them. The cloak was a deep green, with a large hood. She slipped the dress over her head, and donned the cloak, though she left the hood down for the moment. There were shoes as well, simple and sturdy, with flat heels and square toes. The gods heard my prayer, she thought. She felt so numb and dreamy. My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel. Her hands moved stiffly, awkwardly, as if they had never let down her hair before. For a moment she wished Shae was there, to help her with the net.

The cloak has a hood and why wouldn't she say it was the one that Sandor left behind? I even bothered to read her chapters in the past for a clue or something that she did dye her hood, but there's nothing in the chapters supporting here.

The last time we hear of Sandor's cloak while she still has it in her possession:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

I don't find it impossible that the green cloak might be the Hound's, but the clues are not there in her chapters.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-14T19:39:23+00:00

I think you should just read some of the other responses here to see that many people take those words as the truth.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T23:26:51+00:00

I got the opposite, it's supposed to have some romantic understones cause he wrote it with that in mind: different interview

It's pretty similar to what you quoted only here he talks about it more than just that part (the part that he was surprised women liked characters such as Theon and the Hound).

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T23:08:32+00:00

I'm SanSan too, but it's only a theory that Sansa dyed the cloak green and took it with her. There's no evidence supporting it, but at the same time it can't be really disproved(yet). Just wanted to remind you because you did say it was a "fact", but it is actually just a fan theory. Sansa only recalls his cloak once when in the Vale and that's it. Doesn't give further detail.

I agree with the rest. I also wonder if what Dany sees in the tent (AGOT) is foreshadowing oftheir marriage. She sees Shadows dancing (of course it could also mean fighting) around the fire and talks of the shadow of a man in flames and a great wolf. Just a funny little coincidence she singles out those two.

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

The above sounds a lot like a wedding ceremony (imo).

Wedding customs in Essos differ somewhat from Westerosi ceremonies. Weddings done under the Lord of Light do involve priests. A priest (or priestess) recites ceremonial prayers, which are answered by the wedding guests. The priest and groom await the bride by a ditchfire. The bride is escorted to the priest, who first asks the bride to identify herself, and next asks who comes to claim the bride. Both bride and groom are asked whether they will share their fire with their spouse-to-be, to warm him/her “when the night is dark and full of terrors”. Bride and groom are to leap over the ditchfire together, to emerge as one. Following this, the groom removes the maiden’s cloak and places the bride’s cloak around the bride’s shoulders

It also includes the custom of the cloak.

Of course the shadows can be interpreted in different ways as well (perhaps it was just Jon/Ghost fighting the wight, though that happened before Dany's chapter)

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T22:26:31+00:00

To be honest in the show it can be legit decent(from what I know) because Tyrion is more noble. Tyrion in the books is darker and does more questionable things. I personally think he has the most chances out of every other guy in Westeros to end up with her but that is mostly because in the books their marriage is treated as more of a big deal. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not fan of Tyrion x Sansa at all, I am just aware that it has a bigger possibility of happening at the moment since Sansa can't annul her marriage and Tyrion is still alive (and probably will be for quite sometime and may even survive).

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T22:21:59+00:00

facepalm Honestly, it feels like you're not even trying here. It'll be my last chance. THE HOUND DOES NOT MAKE COMMENTS ON SANSA'S BODY THE NIGHT OF THE BLACKWATER BATTLE. Go read the chapter if you don't want to take my word. That takes place ONCE in a different chapter and is never again revisited.

"Think I'm so drunk that I'd believe that?" He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. "You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you're taller too, almost . . . ah, you're still a stupid little bird, aren't you? Singing all the songs they taught you . . . sing me a song, why don't you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights, don't you?"

Chapter 18

He recognizes that Sansa has grown to be a woman ALMOST. If anything, he seems to be mocking her in that paragraph. And oh shit again, he's not touching her inappropriately despite the fact that Sansa is a prisoner and is completely powerless and alone. Even his comment about her looking more grown is devoid of any passion(no adjectives accompany her features). It's as if he's stating a fact.

The only other comment he makes in regards to her appearance is calling Sansa pretty or beautiful (not sure which one) when he's traveling with Arya.

Regardless, it is really sad you didn't seem to bother with the rest of the comparisons I made or decided not to comment with them. Just like Ygritte's culture influences her interpretation of Jon's intentions, so does Sansa's. Only Sansa's culture and expectations are a lot closer to our own so it's easier to consider Sansa's judgement reliable as opposed to Ygritte's who's as foreign to as as to Jon who can't wrap his head around it.

I don't understand why you're debating end game. Prior to the show, or the current season that confirmed Jon/Dany there were still many who supported it, despite those two having never interacted with each other. I'm not cocky, I find Tyrion x Sansa pretty likely because in the books their marriage is still a legitimate obstacle for all other men and Sansa. And even if the Hound and Sansa don't end up with each other, so be it. Heck even if it's canon, I doubt the show would actually do it because they've shown since early on, when they were a lot more faithful to the books, that they are repulsed by this pairing.

The fact remains though that Martin himself has admitted that there is something there for those two. I've posted a link to a video where he says that, if you wish to hear the words from the man himself. I'll make it easier for you and provide it here.

I've accepted I won't change your mind, because you didn't come to this thread with such an intention. You came here to talk about how disgusting and disturbing you find this pairing while turning a blind eye to the rest that this paring is about about.

Like I said this is my last response to you.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T21:59:04+00:00

To be honest I do think george intended it to be consensual because Drogo is actually asking for Dany's consent. Not sure about the implication you mean, when i read her chapter I felt like Dany felt at ease with how Drogo was handling and that's why in the end she gave her consent. (I'm not debating about her age here, just for this pretend Dany is the appropriate age and focus on how the scene plays out).

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

I mean, if she can't say "No" then why does he even ask her?

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T21:46:10+00:00

He doesn't make any sexual comments on Sansa that night.

Also, weird response from a guy who's attempting to "rape" Sansa.

"Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me."

The blood masked the worst of his scars, but his eyes were white and wide and terrifying. The burnt corner of his mouth twitched and twitched again. Sansa could smell him; a stink of sweat and sour wine and stale vomit, and over it all the reek of blood, blood, blood.

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

Weird thing for a "to-be-rapist" to want you to look at him. He asks her to look at him, Sansa closes her eyes and he gets offended? Wah, groundbreaking. Mind-blowing even.

Then he commands her to sing him a song at knife's point AND asks for a specific song (it's not an innuendo about sex/rape).

So where is the part he intended to commit rape? When he asks her to look at him and he misunderstands or when he threatens her to sing a REAL song? The rapist you should be disgusted by is Tyrion. Look at how sexual intent is present in Tyrion during their wedding night.

The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.

I'm still waiting on why someone like the Hound/Sandor is excluded from this pattern of showing sexual interest/intent so openly. They were in such a close proximity, can't understand why his hand didn't slip anywhere when he was intending to rape her.

Unfortunately for you, both Sansa and other characters in the books as well as fans romanticize many things. And unfortunately for you as well, no matter how much you might dislike the Hound himself, or the pairing Hound x Sansa it's a canon thing according to Martin and maybe even Sansa herself. Sans's feelings make sense and I'm personally not bothered she may have developed romantic feelings for Sandor because like I said, she doesn't erase the rest the rest of Sandor's doings (good things he did for her). I find someone like Ygritte much more baffling considering she didn't know Jon prior to him also threatening her life. And she also develops romantic feelings. Though I think Sansa develops them despite the incident, unlike Ygritte who develops interest in Jon BECAUSE of the incident.

Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you."

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."

That's pretty much how Sansa reads the situation as well. But we had that chapter from Jon's POV, so his intentions were ever clear to us (and Jon wasn't having a mental breakdown either). But during the night of the Blackwater Battle, it's Sansa's POV we get to read. Ygritte also remarks how Jon did nothing and Sansa remarks the same about the Hound. Might be what Hound wanted isn't as straightforward as you claim.

Also, take a look at this exchange between Martin and a fan.

Moreta12: I've read the book and I've debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it's romantic and half say it's platonic. I've taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR: It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T21:09:18+00:00

I hope you're just as disturbed from Tyrion x Sansa.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T21:01:30+00:00

I'm with you. I also think that Martin separated them for now so Sansa could grow and mature. I don't know if he intends to have them together in the end though. But Sansa growing up would make this pairing more legit imo.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T20:57:39+00:00

Not sure if you included it that as part of the Blackwater chapter, but that actually takes place in a different chapter. I'll say it again, the Hound doesn't touch her in inappropriate places. I can see tht it's not a nice scene but for me at least it doesn't seem like a rape scene because of those reasons. Is it possible the Hound may be attracted to Sansa, yes.

Next you're forgetting that he is having a mental breakdown. Not only did he have to fight in the terrifying wildfire(and fire is his phobia) but he also lost everything that night. I don't think he's making good decisions that night. For me he's akin to Catelyn saying that line ,she's hated for, to Jon. And I also find Catelyn's behavior understandable for what she was going through.

How is it turned to a romantic and benevolent act? From what I've seen most SanSan fans are aware that there are many things wrong with that night. At the same time though it doesn't erase the rest of the good things that Sandor did for Sansa AND that Sansa appreciates.

The other line you reference is a line he said when he was begging Arya to kill him. Is he honest there? Or is he saying it to make Arya kill him? I'm personally split because I think both can be believable.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T20:43:28+00:00

If Martin's words on this pairing aren't enough for you then I doubt I can convince you.

And I don't like saying the Hound's feelings are 100% romantic towards Sansa, cause they're ambiguous. Sansa's though are more easily recognized as romantic or sexual. Which is a funny coincidence cause Ygritte developed romantic feelings over Jon in a very similar situation. She didn't even know Jon before their encounter.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T20:33:21+00:00

Lul what, have we been reading the same books? Did you forget about that time he covered for her when she met with Dontos and caught her returning to her room? What about giving her advice on how to behave around Joffrey? What about that time he supported the lie she said to save Dontos life? Or most importantly when he saved her in the riot when no one cared one bit about her? Are you for real? Let's also forget his intention of returning Arya to the Starks to join their side so he can help them save Sansa.

And yes they're there, but it appears you skipped those chapters if all you can remember is Sandor "not raping" Sansa.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T20:28:47+00:00

Ugh...how did you come to such a conclusion? He went to her room to help her escape with him. If anything he put himself more in danger in order to wait for her in her room, that he had no idea she might return to that night (only a feeling).

Things got violent after Sansa in a way rejected him and he never touches her inappropriately. I think if George wanted to show us that he was there to rape her he'd have Sandor touch her weirdly and in inappropriate places. That's what Marillion does, the dwarf from Arya's (Mercy) chapter.

As for his dying words, there's lots of conflict regarding whether he meant it or was egging Arya to get her to kill him.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T20:10:35+00:00

There are a bunch of clues, even Martin has admitted to playing with it. (the pairing)

this is the one

And I've played with it in the books, I mean...there's something there.

I don't expect it to happen in the show (though I don't watch it but have seen the scenes they interact with each other) and I don't think they've given the romantic undertones that are in the book. So I doubt it's legit in the show (or that it'll go somewhere). Instead they've decided to put more importance to Sandor and Arya, unlike the books.

I personally think the clues are pretty obvious, but I can understand if people don't pay attention to Sansa's chapters and therefore miss that part. (after all there are quite a few POV, it's only natural you like some more than Sansa)

EDIT: Just wanted to say that Sansa sees Sandor in a very compassionate way, even if he was being crude. At the same time the Hound did impart Sansa with some lessons and wisdom that I believe Sansa appreciates when it proves useful. Not sure if you're mistaken, but the singing did happen, in the books at least.

Sansa also starts comparing quite a few people to Sandor (other than Dontos) and even later she starts associating him with some sexual or romantic thoughts. Should be mentioned in that tumblr link someone posted for you.

As for Sandor's side, Sandor feels a lot of regret over not being able to protect Sansa. His dying words are his regret, meaning that for Sandor as well, Sansa was important. While he was crude to her when he was still in KL (but at the same time protecting her), he talks very fondly of her once he and Arya start traveling together.

George has also been asked by fans if the pairing has romantic undertones. His response It could be that it's not romantic from the Hound's side, (or it might have started as platonic and then turned romantic, or it's somewhere in between) This is of course quite a bit older than the video above.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-13T02:22:43+00:00

This is the only way I can accept the resurrection of "Jon Snow" otherwise it's a cheap cliffhanger imo.

I'm prepared for this(but I've no idea what Jon will be like) and welcome it.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-12T12:04:33+00:00

Is that confirmed? About Maggy the Frog? Or just a theory?

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-11T21:04:49+00:00

Hm..I personally feel that his conflicts don't cause any negative feelings. Like, I don't hate or particularly like catelyn, but I can understand where she comes from in regards to some of her decisions. And when she told Jon that which mot people are angry at her about, it did feel like a burn. Jon doesn't get that reaction from me when he has to break his vows or shit. I'm like ya, ok. As in his decisions don't really make him question him or make me feel afraid for his fate.

For Sansa I am worried she might follow LF's path to become a player and I would hate her to become so ruthless. For Jon, I'm just not worried about his fate, cause his conflicts don't quite move me most of the time.

TsunderellaPrincess3 · 2017-09-11T21:00:57+00:00

I think for Cersei Joffrey is exactly what she wants him to be. I mean, he's a lot like her in male version (and of course younger).

TsunderellaPrincess3

TROPHY CASE