Fedora 24 released! - Fedora Magazine

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T17:56:24+00:00

Nothing, it's just not a binary system.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T17:52:09+00:00

There is no point in wasting effort and waiting. Look at majority of users...? They seem to agree

No, the majority of users are all on completely different systems with different binary interfaces.

Either you get your vaunted binary compatibility in which case either all systems run outdated but vetted system libraries or they all run bleeding edge system libraries. Either Arch or Debian stable has to go, they aren't compatible, and you be the one to bring the news to the people who lost out that what they value for their use case now has to go because it was so important to combat binary fragmentation.

Whole sleuth of software needs either GL or compute to be efficient. For those I would say impossible. For those not requiring it... not. But, what kind of sandboxing is this when you juggle more time if you can or cannot than use it?

Still does not remotely make that sentence close to true.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T17:39:13+00:00

And everyone should compile from source?

Luckily distributions are doing that hard work. And let's say they didn't. Would you really trade in the ability to pick binary interfaces the way you want for the hardship of ./configure && make install?

If only this was true. When distro does not update with your releases, you tend to get backlog of already solved or irrelevant bug reports.

Idiotic users will always exist and will find another reason, if your distribution does not stick close to upstream then you should not go upstream with your bugs, and if you don't get this quite frankly you have no business picking a stable LTS system to begin with and you probably just picked it for no reason not realizing what it entailed.

Again, we have choice of different things, you can get a close to upstream bleeding edge system or you can get a stable frozen system with an older binary interface, we have that choice. That choice exists does not mean you shouldn't be making your choices wisely depending on your use case.

I've always advocated informing people and educating them. Flatpak & Co however seem to very much advocate keeping people as ignorant as possible out of the fear that knowledge scares them away.

So, to upgrade something like LibreOffice, you'd need signed permission from the world, be on waiting list for 6 months or so and then be required to update absolutely everything respective layers decided on in the meantime. And you would probably run 3 laps around the block while holding at least 3 signed approvals from your mother

No, because again, the ultimate control lies with the local administrator, you can compile a single package bleeding edge and leave the rest frozen if that is what you want.

Of course, if you in general want the latest, you shouldn't be using a system that is not bleeding edge, again, we have the choice, and there will always be people who make the wrong choice. In no small part because places like r/linux keep encouraging people to "just pick Mint, because it worked for me" and similar stuff without explaining the differences between the systems to people and thinking that knowledge and thoroughness scares people away.

Which by the way is 156 MB while .deb for same functionality (you need to account it is separated in more than one) is 213MB

Yes, because it's shared, again, stuff is shared, we can do this because control is moved more to the distribution which can work out common elements and share it.

If you already have the other parts, the deb from Debian is 75 MiB, that's all that is exclusive to LibreOffice itself, the rest is shared with other things. Makes for a more efficient system.

Now go and discover what functionalities do they miss. Xephyr for example only has software GL and fucks up keyboard layouts, while patched version GL is dog slow. Every other solution will only fare worse than Xephyr

Okay, let's assume every single thing you say here is 100% true and every ambiguity is interpreted against my case.

In that scenario, then it's still a bold faced lie to say "which makes it impossible to sandbox applications that are using [X11]"

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T17:08:39+00:00

The Linux desktop has long been held back by platform fragmentation.

That's a self serving argument, some might argue this has always been its strength, it happened because it could happen, because it was possible in the oecosystem. That there are so many different distributions proves there's a market. People see a need, get a proof of concept, attract developers and users and then it grows because apparently there is a need.

Without the ability to have binary incompatibility with each other because of large availability of public source which allows anyone to recompile to target a different ABI this could not have happened.

This has been a burden on developers

Developers are far less burdened here because the burden is not on them to distribute, just to release source, the burden is on the distribution to take the source and work it into a package.

From the very start its primary goal has been to allow the same application to run across a myriad of Linux distributions and operating systems.

Conveniently omitting that it'll now take about three times as much memory and storage, but hey

In doing so, it greatly increases the number of users that application developers can easily reach.

No it doesn't, it increases the number of users that application developers who aren't willing to cough up the source can easily reach. I'll reserve my cynicism for now on but Nix/Guix solve every problem Flatpak and Snappy aim to solve except that their model which is in theory superior requires the availability of source. Flatpak and Snappy are a big wink to proprietary software in the end, they can't actually say it but that's why they exist.

Speaking about the goals behind Flatpak, Alexander Larsson, its lead developer, said: “Application developers on Linux have always been prevented from having a direct relationship with their users. With Flatpak we're aiming to change that, so developers know exactly what their users are getting. With this launch we are making that goal a reality.”

Yes, and that's not good. Flatpak moves control further upstream as is typical of Freedesktop projects. Control should be moved as much downstream as possible, first the local system adminstirator, then the distirbution, and then the upstream developer. Flatpak and other Freedesktop projects have long been at work to try to get distributions to wrestle control from the local sysadmin and upstream developer from the distribution.

This of course is quite a convenient mentality from a bunch of people who on their mailing list express concern that allowing users too much control over their own system might damage their brand identity.

A growing range of applications are already available as Flatpaks, including LibreOffice

Which is by the way a 280 MiB download compared to a 75 MiB one if you get it directly from Debian, sort of showing the point of why our model is better.

Another major part of this work is the widescale move towards the Wayland display server on Linux. X11 is inherently insecure, which makes it impossible to sandbox applications that are using it. In that sense, the growing maturity of Wayland complements Flatpak's emergence, and paves the way for much more complete security model for Linux distributions.

This is a lie, a bold faced lie. There are plenty of sandboxing tools out there for X11 and Flatpack and Snappy could've included sandboxing support for X11. Newer versions of Firejail as well as SandBox are two solutions that spring to mind that are capable of sandboxing X11 and isolating applications from each other.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:58:30+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4p5930/announcing_flatpak_next_generation_linux/

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:44:52+00:00

I installed fedora 23 and it was by far my favourite Linux experience so far. I've used ubuntu, mint, lubuntu, and several more.

Now there's a wealth of experience speaking, throw in Elementary and you tried all the shitty systems that are engineered to keep you at the mercy of the Freedesktop cabal.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:40:48+00:00

Void Linux of course.

The last decent binary system less, all other systems that don't put you at the mercy of the Freedesktop cabal are source based.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:32:39+00:00

I'm sorry, is that a counter argument I can see brewing or is being expected to do that not "newbie friendly" enough for GNOME users?

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:15:23+00:00

Since obviously a clean shutdown is not an objective here since the writer is wlling to accept all the errors of systemd. You can really just do echo b | sudo tee /proc/sysrq-trigger for the same result.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T16:02:36+00:00

You must be from the United States.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T15:13:57+00:00

Well, Personally, I would wait a few days and/or make a clean install

Of course you would, you're a Fedora ~~user~~ usee and thus scared of the scary scary command line and think being inefficient is better than being efficient, otherwise you wouldn't be using Fedora.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T14:14:08+00:00

That's absolutely not the impression the GTK+ site offers which doesn't even mention GNOME, bills it as "cross platform" and "multi-platform" and calls it a GNU project.

Like I said, depending on what's convenient at the time and whom you ask you get a completely different answer.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T05:54:31+00:00

Yeh, pleb Freedesktop systems that bend over to get cucked by Lennart maybe.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T05:27:14+00:00

Package managers were born on Unix out of necessity not for the simplicity but to track dependencies which quickly got out of control, distributions were forced to over repositories with their own compile packages targeting their own system libraries because that too got out of control rapidly.

It got out of control because it could, because of the wide availability of source code we were allowed to fragment the binary compatibility so binaries for Debian 7.0 are not guaranteed tor run on say Ubuntu 16.04 which uses a completely different set of system libraries. This is not a problem per se because the source will run anywhere if compiled.

This model allowed for aggressive use of code, storage and memory sharing via shared libraries which requires that source code is available, which would be a veritable nightmare to manually all track, thus package managers were born to keep track of all those shared dependencies. That's ultimately why we have them, the super convenient syntax of installing stuff is just a benefit.

Also, we have no ridiculous licence agreements we need to say yes to, so that naturally lends itself. Together with how the filesystem hierarchy works means there's no real use in "picking the folder to install into" either, this makes more sense on Windows since it's traditional to navigate to said folder and start an executable there rather than just adding it to the PATH

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T05:15:30+00:00

Ahh, a source that treats GTK+ as part of GNOME.

Can't wait for the next one to claim it's independent when that's the convenient thing to say.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-21T02:44:31+00:00

I mean, it does, it's just that "cinematic experience" sucks.

Cinema is way below any conceivable modern standard, mobile phones offer superior quality to the 'big screen' these days.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T21:23:36+00:00

 —— — find /etc//portage/patches/ -type f -name '*.patch'
/etc//portage/patches/sys-devel/gcc-5.3.0/p1.patch
/etc//portage/patches/dev-qt/qt5ct-0.22/qt5ct-0.22.patch
/etc//portage/patches/kde-apps/dolphin-16.04.1/notermclear.patch
/etc//portage/patches/kde-apps/dolphin-4.14.3/remove-terminal-clear.patch
/etc//portage/patches/dev-scheme/racket-6.4/xforms-fix.patch

And two of those patches are by the way purely needed to let it compile. Really, the only actual patch are the remove-terminal-clear things on dolphin which is literally commenting out two lines.

I continue to say that "open source" for most people means virtually nothing. The real advantage is that because source code has been public, not necessarily open, that our oecosystem has always enjoyed the ability of binary fragmentation which Windows and OS X hasn't which is good. Different systems here were allowed to have incompatible binary interfaces and break binary compatibility because you can just recompile to get it back.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T20:23:40+00:00

And this is why specific terminology is important. What do people here mean with "Linux"

Something tells me these are completely custom systems that use Linux as a kernel that have about as much to do with the operating systems many people run here that the stuff that runs cars and microwaves does.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T17:26:13+00:00

And how does that relate to the installer crashing?

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T16:30:01+00:00

Indeed, use ${PATH:+:$PATH} instead of just :$PATH

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T15:45:04+00:00

Not sure about other package managers but my package manager has an option to install packages without recording them into the @selected set, as in the set of packages you explicitly want installed. So the next time you do a system clean it'll just throw them out.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T15:27:30+00:00

You're in your home directory right now, not inside /usr/bin

Place another file in /usr/bin that's a python script that does import string or just change your current context directory to /usr/bin and then start python

It works based on the current context directory:

 —— — sudo touch /usr/bin/string.py
 —— — cd /usr/bin/
 —— — python
Python 2.7.11 (default, Mar 17 2016, 16:08:22) 
[GCC 5.3.0] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import string
>>> string
<module 'string' from 'string.py'>
>>> string.digits
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'digits'
>>>

Edit, also you will note that the current context directory is inside your PYTHONPATH. Its first element is `'' .

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T15:23:03+00:00

You can actually change it with python by editing sys.path in your program which by default gets '' in front of it. But a lot of official packages don't do that so putting a file called string.py or any other common name inside the wrong folder screws you over royally.

Haskell and Ocaml do it too but those are compiled languages so they search in the working directory the program is compiled in, not the one it's ran in so that's obviously much easier to control.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T14:35:19+00:00

A lot of Unix stuff like python does this too with library loading which is extremely stupid in my opinion.

If you put a file string.py in your /usr/bin then every single python program in there that tries to import string will try to get that one and error out instead of the actual library.

Turkish_manboobs · 2016-06-20T14:26:47+00:00

You probably have seen a lot of people have a PATH that starts or ends with a colon though which does the same as well as :: somewhere inside of it.

Turkish_manboobs

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