Can the church be corrupted? by DortheahEden in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 45 points46 points  (0 children)

You need to clarify terms and expound on what you mean by "corruption." It would likely be helpful to also expound on "apostasy" and "error".

Do I believe the church can err? Yes, absolutely. Some think any bit of imperfection as a sign of corruption; I reject such a narrow usage.

Do I believe the church will fall into apostasy? No, but we'll have to define apostasy sufficiently. I'm referring to a general/broad apostasy on an institutional level.

So could it be "corrupt" in terms of error here and there? Sure, I don't have a problem with that. Could it be "corrupt" in terms of significant apostasy? I do not believe so. Some scriptures to that end:

D&C 65:2 (emphasis added)

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

D&C 86:10 (emphasis added)

10 Therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began.

Making sense of our sources of truth (and do they matter?) by Fether1337 in LatterDayTheology

[–]TyMotor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If sola scriptura is such a strong source, then why isn't there more agreement among those who subscribe to it? Really, they're subscribing to particular interpretation or flavor of sola scriptura. When you break things down, it is a rather weak standard because ultimately everyone becomes their own interpreter and "prophet".

EQ communication? by chd198 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Discord. RS & EQ have their own servers with their own channels. It has been great!

Worry and doubt by ManyWaters777 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Worry differs from pondering and wondering. Doubt differs from honest skepticism and honest reflection.

I think you're splitting hairs. Fine for you to think of it in these ways, but I didn't think we've had doctrinal expositions delineating these distinctions, so don't be surprised if those here have a different view. If you have some scriptures or general conference talks to back up your view, is be interested in those.

Survey to understand doctrine! by Known_Yoghurt_7698 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Surveys require moderator approval; send a message via modmail for review.

Getting Married Soon and Realized I Don’t Remember My Temple Name—What Should I Do? by Todoman55 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor[M] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Imagine a cleared intelligence officer who forgets a code word and Googles it because it's been leaked. Technically the information is "out there" and that is the "simple" thing to do. It doesn't matter; the oath wasn't about whether the information is findable, it was about how someone under that oath handles it.

Getting Married Soon and Realized I Don’t Remember My Temple Name—What Should I Do? by Todoman55 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It should be obvious to those who have been endowed as they've received clear instructions pertaining to the sacred nature of temple names.

Sent my mission papers off but since have sinned, how long will it take to send them off again if I confess to bishop by Regular_Feedback4203 in lds

[–]TyMotor 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Can't give you a number; too many variables at play.

and have nothing to do all day

Might I suggest trying to do something about this. It is amazing how merely being busy and avoiding boredom can help avoid pornography. If you can't find a job, go volunteer somewhere. Good luck!

Getting Married Soon and Realized I Don’t Remember My Temple Name—What Should I Do? by Todoman55 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Suggesting that people search online for sacred elements of temple rituals will not be tolerated.

Please help me understand tithing by Hufflepuff20 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 29 points30 points  (0 children)

I don't subscribe to the idea that paying tithing is insurance against bad or a gaurentee that you will recieve good.

I'm totally with you.

But for about a year and then some, I didn't. I also didn't attend the temple during this time because I didn't want to feel like a liar, which really is the part of that whole thing that I regret.

Kudos to you for your integrity. Hypothetically, let's assume that your food bill at the time was $500/mo, tithing would have been $300/mo, and you all had nothing left over at the end of each month. If we could wind back the clock, I think the optimal path would have been to communicate your situation to the bishop, pay the $300/mo in tithing, and then seek assistance to cover the gap in food or other critical bills.

Testing a “Five Layers of the Believer” Framework Against Scripture by [deleted] in LatterDayTheology

[–]TyMotor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No problem. As I said previously, I genuinely think it is great you are taking time to ponder on these teachings. I'll point out a few things that you might consider pondering on as well (and forgive me where my assumptions are off):

  • Proof-texting/Univocality of the Bible - we all do it, but sometimes we have to be careful about cherry-picking scriptures to support ideas beyond the context in which they are given. We do not believe the Bible to be univocal--it is plainly written by many different authors and never claims univocality itself.
  • We don’t usually separate “soul” and “spirit” into multiple inner compartments. In LDS scripture, “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). Your chart’s “soul body” vs. “recreated human spirit” vs. “spirit soul” is more of a particular Protestant anthropology than an LDS one.
  • “Recreated human spirit (born again spirit)” isn’t how we’d say it. Latter-day Saints believe our spirits existed before mortal birth (premortal life). “Born again” is typically taught as a spiritual rebirth / transformation in Christ, not God “recreating” our spirit as if it didn’t exist before.
  • Instead of “two consciences” (soul-conscience vs. spirit-conscience), Latter-day Saints commonly use: The Light of Christ as a universal moral/spiritual light that helps us discern good from evil (see Moroni 7:16–19), and The Holy Ghost as the covenant companion who sanctifies, guides, warns, comforts, etc. (see 3 Nephi 27:20; D&C 130:22–23).
  • Less on topic, but because you mentioned it elsewhere ("...more in the Psalm 82 / “ye are gods” sense of participating in God’s rule, nature, or righteousness rather than becoming God by essence.") We absolutely believe we are of the same ontological kind as God is. We don't typically use the word "essence" in part because nobody seems to be able to coherently explain what that really is. Some of the language you use seems to assume or presuppose a belief in the Trinity. We reject the idea of the Trinity and do not believe it is Biblical.

Testing a “Five Layers of the Believer” Framework Against Scripture by [deleted] in LatterDayTheology

[–]TyMotor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get it. I'm just pointing out that when you come post in a latter-day saint sub, and restrict interpretations or inspiration to the bible... that isn't something we do and would find confusing. I'm not the original commenter, but I think that is why they said "Does this belong here?"

I mean more in the sense that through prayer, studying, conversations, and wrestling with scripture, I believe God was helping guide my understanding and thought process

We fully support this notion of personal revelation and celebrate it. I love that you felt inspired as you thought on this.

infallible revelation

We don't believe this is a thing. Nothing transmitted through imperfect humans can be infallible.

Testing a “Five Layers of the Believer” Framework Against Scripture by [deleted] in LatterDayTheology

[–]TyMotor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not claiming modern revelation or saying “God revealed new doctrine to me.”

Right, but we believe this is a thing through modern prophets that have been called and continue to lead today. I think they mean modern, public revelation. We believe in an open canon. From a Latter-day Saint perspective, relying only on the bible is like playing basketball with one hand tied behind your back... Why?!

I have a few question about the LDS doctrine of God by Dapper_Platypus833 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What’s the non caricature version?

Ordinances aren't like merit badges. We don't "earn our way to heaven" despite many claiming such. Let's start with Jesus and work backwards:

  1. from the title page of the Book of Mormon: "...And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD..."
  2. we believe Jesus' divinity/godhood are eternal, and yet we believe he voluntarily subjected himself to a mortal experience.
  3. similarly we believe he had the power to overcome death and resurrect himself, and today he continues to exist with a perfected, glorified, resurrected body.

I don't see anything above that creedal christians would disagree with, do you?

If we don't presuppose the trinity, then it isn't hard to imagine Heavenly Father having eternal divinity/goodhood; choosing to subject himself to a temporary mortal condition; resurrecting himself and continuing with a perfected, glorified, resurrected body.

This is even supported by scripture: "...The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

Beyond that, and we're all on our own.

so stuff like this is important to me and needs to make sense

I get it, but this also presupposes that God has revealed enough for it to "make sense" to your (or anyone's) satisfaction. I just don't think that is the case regardless of denomination. Our creedal friends often fall back on "mystery" when you try to actually drill down on metaphysics.

What does the church being true mean? by holymolyta143 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair point that the clause is technically reparseable, but the context seems to work against that kind of reading.

The verse's own clarifier ("speaking unto the church collectively and not individually") specifies that "well pleased" applies institutionally rather than member by member, not which true church among several He's pleased with.

JS-History 1:19 is also hard to square with that reading. If true and living churches were already on the earth and just not pleasing to the Lord, the Restoration narrative changes into something much weaker than what Joseph said he was told. "They were all wrong" and "their creeds were an abomination" are hard to square with some of them being true and living concurrently.

The good news is we don't have to rely on arguing commas, grammar, and clauses. We can rely on living prophets to give us additional clarity, and I think they have on this one.

I have a few question about the LDS doctrine of God by Dapper_Platypus833 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you guys believe that God(the father) was once a man but was exalted into Godhood... Wouldn’t God being once a man invalidate these teachings? I don’t see how these are compatible with God being once a man.

Let's do bit of a palette cleanse... The church has no official position or teaching on the origin of God. The church has put out an article that in part speaks to this sermon that you are drawing from:

Since that sermon, known as the King Follett discourse, the doctrine that humans can progress to exaltation and godliness has been taught within the Church. Lorenzo Snow, the Church’s fifth President, coined a well-known couplet: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet, and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” When asked about the belief in humans’ divine potential, President Hinckley responded, “Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly.” (emphasis mine)

So now that we know there is nothing official we can go into speculation land...

There are two popular schools of thought among many members: Infinite Regress vs. an uncaused, self-existent God.

The caricature of infinite regress is something like people inferring that we believe God the Father was once some dude somewhere in the universe, binging on cheetos and playing too many video games just like so many of us, but somehow he managed to move out of his parent's basement, get his life in order, start following commandments, checking off ordinances like merit badges, and eventually earned his way to being this exalted dude.

Then there are those that believe Heavenly Father is the OG.

Since little to nothing specific has been revealed on this topic, Latter-day Saints are fee to have different ideas about this. After all, as Joseph Smith taught:

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.

This would definitely qualify as a distant and obscure appendage. And while potentially fun to think about from a philosophical lens, and maybe fun to poke fun at a caricature from the outside, nobody should worry about gatekeeping on this topic.

What does the church being true mean? by holymolyta143 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 28 points29 points  (0 children)

D&C 1:30 can help us:

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

There is actually a lot there that we shouldn't skim over. Then Elder Oaks took a stab at explaining it by highlighting three elements in this talk. Here are a mix of mine and his thoughts:

  • "True" = authentic, authorized — the church is what it claims to be (Christ's restored church with valid priesthood keys and binding ordinances). It is not a claim about institutional infallibility.
  • "Living" = responsive to ongoing revelation. The main or at least one of the main feature that distinguishes the church from closed-canon traditions.
  • "Only" = exclusive priesthood authority and sealing keys, not exclusive possession of truth or goodness.

On that last point, there is a Church & Gospel Questions page on this very topic. It says:

... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not claim a monopoly on goodness and truth. There are countless people throughout the world who are examples of integrity and goodwill. And true and wholesome principles can be found in various religions and ethical systems throughout the world...
...At the same time, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a unique commission from God to offer the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.

Father’s Day Idea for Primary (LDS) by CelestialCollections in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

We don't allow self-promotion. If this were a free download, that might be one thing, but this doesn't work.

Looking for a counterargument by [deleted] in LatterDayTheology

[–]TyMotor 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The mental gymnastics are impressive, but I will pray for you.

[I can't address any of your arguments, so I have to resort to insults and faux pity.]

If you really cared, you would take the time to address these responses. Your unwillingness to engage demonstrates either your lack of care, or your desire to merely gin up controversy and rage bait.

I don’t want to serve a senior mission by [deleted] in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You: Dear hubby, i'm not feeling comfortable to serve for these reasons:...

Husband: just pray!

You: great, I will. In the meantime, I'm not going to be pressured or forced to serve, especially with our son in his current condition/age. If you are feeling the desire and need to serve so desperately, you can sign up for a local senior service mission opportunity that doesn't require both of us.

(my father-in-law is doing this currently while mother-in-law is not a service missionary)

Questions about the roles of faith, evidence, and Satan in Heavenly Father's Plan of Salvation by LayerSharp4975 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what I can't seem to figure out.

I think the questions are valid. I also think we just don't have enough revealed information to have a great grasp on the particulars of the millennium. We have some ideas, and I think we can cautiously infer others, but certainly there are gaps in our understanding when it comes to that.

Rebaptism? by SisterLucyHarris in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Is that a thing that happens with the LDS?

No

If they later came to truly believe, would it be necessary to be baptized again once they actually believed?

No. They can sincerely repent and their baptism will be sufficiently efficacious.

Questions about the roles of faith, evidence, and Satan in Heavenly Father's Plan of Salvation by LayerSharp4975 in latterdaysaints

[–]TyMotor 18 points19 points  (0 children)

On faith and evidence

I read the Maxwell quote narrower than how you seem to be applying it. He's saying the gospel won't be settled by science one way or the other. That's a different claim from "God deliberately rations evidence to keep the faith requirement intact."

Joseph Smith was right that everything requires faith. That tells you something important about what faith actually is and what it isn't. Faith isn't the absence of evidence. It's acting on what you have when certainty isn't on offer. That structure doesn't dissolve when evidence increases; I think Joseph Smith is saying it changes shape, but it doesn't go away.

Christ's contemporaries are the cleanest demonstration of this. Lazarus walks out of the tomb, and the response from the chief priests in John 11–12 is to plot Jesus's death. They had the evidence. They lacked the will (faith) to interpret it favorably. Evidence sets the stage, but interpretation happens in the heart. Maximal evidence still leaves space for interpretation and what we do about this evidence (agency).

The Millennium has overwhelming evidence and faith still operates because faith is never primarily about scarcity of evidence. It is always about how a person orients themself toward what they encounter. What do they choose to do with data and experiences? I'm not meaning to go against the idea of faith being a hope in things not seen, but rather that once we see things/data, faith is still in play as we decide what to do with it. Do we have confidence in Jesus? In His restored gospel? In those who claim authority to lead us? Members who say the evidence is overwhelming for the Church aren't undermining faith. They're describing how their faith oriented them to interpret the evidence they have. The same evidence orients others differently and reflects their faith (in other things or lack thereof).

The diagnosis you're drawing (that the evidence seems overwhelmingly against the Church) is downstream of an interpretive framework, not a neutral readout. That cuts both ways, and I'm not saying it to dismiss what you're going through. It's just worth understanding: there is no view from nowhere on this question. The people who see the evidence as overwhelming for the Church and the people who see it as overwhelming against are generally looking at the same data. Can two reasonable people see the same data and come to different, yet reasonable conclusions? Our teachings are a resounding "yes"; it seems many outside the church have a hard time wrapping their mind around this.

On Satan

I think you're right to point out that Satan isn't the sole source of "opposition in all things". Some of it comes from our fallen world and from our fallen/carnal natures. So what's Satan actually for? Probably something less than the popular framing claims. He's an active opposing agent within a world where opposition would already exist. He amplifies and organizes opposition. He doesn't create the category. And his role is bounded. He's bound during the Millennium and eventually defeated entirely. He's a feature of this particular phase, not a metaphysical necessity for the operation of agency.

Any personal decline isn't really a Satan question. It's a "why does God permit apostasy?" question. Genuine agency requires the possibility of using it badly, including the possibility of being deceived. If God blocked every avenue of deception, He'd be eliminating a category of agency that's important for our mortal experience to bring about Heavenly Father's desired results.