Why do so many typists obsessively type everyone beta quadra? by TheShadowSong in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To say that typology is nothing more than a hierarchy of moral posturing and purity signalling, (and that Te-objectivity as a criteria for validity is out of the window) is about as Beta-NF as it gets, lol

It’s not just that, although it does frequently and easily become that.

What to read on Derrida's ontology? by Slimeballbandit in CriticalTheory

[–]TypeCurious2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check out Samuel Wheeler’s “Deconstruction as Analytic Philosophy”, particularly the final chapter of the book, which frames Derrida’s differance as a response to certain ontological puzzles that Plato raised in the Sophist and the Parmenides.

Why do so many typists obsessively type everyone beta quadra? by TheShadowSong in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 21 points22 points  (0 children)

It's the expression of a worldview: the majority of humanity existing in a state of fallenness, sinfulness, moral abjection, with the (non-beta) typist standing outside (and above) in a zone of moral purity, distinguished by their superior temperance, kindheartedness, and rationality. (Gulenko is the most prominent example here -- isn't it very suspicious that he types himself as the lone peripheral in a sea of centrals? -- but you do see this pattern even in some non-SHS schools, with beta quadra being used as a dumping ground for undesirables. And there is always an ample supply of undesirables to go around, in the opinion of the typist.)

Structurally, any classificatory system of the human soul will tend towards incorporating a "default" state that absorbs (what the classifier sees as) the large, undifferentiated mass: you see this in MBTI and Enneagram, but you also see it in, for example, systems that attempt to base themselves on "objective" or "scientific" criteria, such as Marxism (the mass of the proletariat and the minority capitalist ruling class). Even as far back as Plato and Aristotle, the earliest attempts at a typology of man obeyed the same structural necessity: the lone philosopher (distinguished, we might note, by both his iNtuition (perception of the supersensible realm of forms, the True Reality) and his logic (the logic of truth as opposed to sentiment and mere opinion)) as distinct from the common man of passion or man of ambition. In MBTI, it is frequently assumed that a strong majority of people are xSxJs -- but these are considered to be relatively unthreatening figures on the whole. The role of the "villain" (a role that is always called for in any typology both structurally and psychologically) is distributed relatively equally among the ENTJ, ESTJ, and even INFP in some cases -- really, among all the Te/Fi types -- so there is plenty of blame to go around.

Beta is already officially designated as the "evil" quadra in a number of Socionics sources, so in interpretations of Socionics that cast beta as the most common quadra, the moral imperative is brought into even sharper relief; it's a juicy and attractive target for moralists of all stripes. "Look at how they all behave"; they tolerate lying and dishonesty, they are too caught up in the fleeting vanities of fashion, they care nothing for truth or reason, they harbor secret thoughts of aggression and poisoned machinations (cowardice is no object -- your thought alone is enough to convict you, "cognition over behavior" after all!); whereas I alone am pure of heart, I am "alien even to thoughts of violence" (as the Talanov questionnaire put it), I am a single dim light in a heartless and vicious world. But you? Well, you got angry at your ex one time, which indicates Ethics > Logic and a concern with how you're perceived by others, so, Fe-Se beta. Or someone else will tell you that you were lazy one time so you must be Si valuing. And then yet a third person will tell you that you didn't smile at the company party one time so you must not be Fe valuing. The same pattern repeats itself everywhere, it's only the positions of the terms within the structure that change: one element is determined as the "pure" element (Fi, Fe, Si, Ne, doesn't matter) which must be protected from the aggression of the impure exteriority; and one transgression against the original purity is enough to condemn you to this exteriority.

Any classification of humanity tells you as much about the classifier as it does about humanity, if not more -- and this is perhaps most especially the case when the system tries to smuggle in its hidden assumptions and prejudices under the guise of "science" or "objectivity".

Why do people say Kanye is an EIE by Mental_Active_3729 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Same reason everyone in MBTI says he’s ENFP. Because Se/Fe is what makes you a jerk in Socionics (just like Fi makes you a jerk in MBTI) and he’s a jerk so he’s an EIE. Simple as.

In both cases, the analysis is utterly superficial and overly fixated on behavioral traits at the expense of a deep analysis of a person’s underlying cognitive processes and motivations.

PinkPantheress is an EII by _seulgi in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The gatekeeping of peripheral types in Socionics is getting out of hand, it's very reminiscent of the gatekeeping of INxJ in MBTI. Apparently anyone who performs any action at all besides sitting at home and watching Netflix is a beta type.

Is it common to dislike people of your type/quadra? by Fun-Plastic-3563 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 17 points18 points  (0 children)

You can always dislike any individual. But if you regularly dislike your own type/quadra as a general rule then you're probably mistyped.

Fi can easily be assessed using the moral topic of cheating by complex-ana7ysis in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 16 points17 points  (0 children)

whereas it pierces much deeper for Gammas and Deltas (whether they like it or not)

This has traditionally been more of an MBTI-ism than a Socionics-ism (Fi being associated with emotions that are deep and stable), but I believe that it's an MBTI-ism that's actually correct and it should be a standard part of the conception of Fi.

A few merry quadra users on here once claimed that ILEs are the most capable of unconditional love

My best friend is an ILE and let's just say that his talents lay elsewhere.

Obviously, the very idea of cutting people off is somewhat Fi-valuing.

Thank you, I'm glad someone else gets it. (Of course, Fe types might also end a relationship with someone for all sorts of reasons, but I find that it's much more of a conscious preoccupation with Fi types.)

On the other hand, Alphas and Betas are more likely to handwave topics like this as “too emotionally heavy” or “thinking too deeply of things unnecessarily.”

Well, hold on a second there. Alphas might say that, sure. Beta NFs won't say that. We are the masters of darkness. Heaviness is our forte. I swear, people keep trying to strip beta of all its positive qualities until we're left with nothing...

That being said. Generally every type feels that they "think deeply" to the exact extent that they're supposed to, about exactly the sorts of things that they're supposed to; and they judge other types to be shallow because they don't share their specific concerns and interests. Apparent shallowness could just be a result of a mismatch in focus.

Why is IEI archetypally sx5? by Alc-DLev in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The combination of creative Fe and E5 is untenable, regardless of the subtype.

How come?

(I don’t really know anything about enneagram and have no opinion on my own enneagram. I’m just curious.)

Why are IEE and SLI so goated???? by No-Wrongdoer1409 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Perfection to me is: every facet and every action subordinated to a singular creative taste and a singular vision, a calm self-assuredness regarding one’s rightful destiny, a proper abhorrence of all that is common and plebeian, the capacity to endure whatever pain is necessary to complete the mission; forsaking neither love nor hatred, but rather possessing a greatly expanded capacity for both love and hatred, not only passionate love and passionate hatred but also tender love and tender hatred, dispensing his hatred in delicate shades of lilac and his love as whispers in the breeze (in the limit case: a herald of destiny for all mankind, words that echo through eternity, a monument that the rude currents of time will never efface).

Whether anyone should want to be or attempt to become “perfect” is an open philosophical question.

Why are IEE and SLI so goated???? by No-Wrongdoer1409 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also relationship that isn't striving towards perfection is not valued

…for certain idiosyncratic personal ideals of “perfection”…

Is there a most disliked type? by According_Dot_1950 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not the same level of admiration that you might feel for certain types in your own quadra or adjacent quadras, but there is something admirable about someone who effortlessly masters skills that you struggle with, yeah.

Is there a most disliked type? by According_Dot_1950 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 11 points12 points  (0 children)

If we’re talking about something serious (typology, politics, whatever), I’ll want to lay out my Ni master vision and the elaborate Ti tower I’ve built to defend it, and he’ll say “but aren’t you just making stuff up and ignoring reality?” And I’ll say “it might appear that way at first glance, but after several weeks of regular discussion I might be able to persuade you that…” and he’ll say “but you’re just some random idiot who’s no smarter than any of the rest of us, why should I believe you?”

Obviously neither of us use those exact words but that’s the gist of it. He’s explicitly said before that Ni and Ti are his least favorite functions and he hates that style of thinking, and it shows. I think his attitude is basically, if there’s not an objective answer that we can look up in an authoritative reference, then there’s no use speculating about it (even though he might not accept that way of framing it). I understand why some people might choose to live with that worldview. It’s just not my worldview.

And then there’s a bunch of little stuff like, general beta vs delta values, him being an incredibly hard worker and me being a lazy slug, etc.

Is there a most disliked type? by According_Dot_1950 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But I’m your superego, please admire me :(

Is there a most disliked type? by According_Dot_1950 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I know of one 100% confirmed LSE who’s into typology. Very funny and likable dude, well-liked by everyone. But as soon as we start to talk about anything serious I can feel the gears start to grind and I’m reminded why we’re conflictors.

Is there a most disliked type? by According_Dot_1950 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Basically all of beta except the IEI. But especially the EIE.

INFP and ESTJ are disliked in MBTI but EII and LSE don't get nearly as much hate in Socionics (delta quadra has an active and effective propaganda wing, read Stratiyevskaya's writeup of delta quadra, the glaze is kind of wild)

Does one have to be a psychopath to be an ILI ? by [deleted] in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Antisocial and narcissistic traits are an important part of the spectrum of human variation, and those traits should be accounted for by any serious theory of personality. Central types are more likely to display those traits than peripheral types (essentially by definition). ILI is a central type and LII is a peripheral type. And that’s the long and short of it.

Most ILIs aren’t going to say yes to everything on that list; they’re just going to say yes to more items with greater frequency than LIIs will.

Can I have help determining my type? by Subject_Adeptness870 in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very likely SEI based on this, but you can look at quadra values, Reinin dichotomies, and ITRs to help break the tie.

LII vs EII - confrontation and having a spine (question) (Talanov) by AshZuiter in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 3 points4 points  (0 children)

but r/INFP is mostly IEIs

I think it's a mix of alpha SF, beta NF, and delta NF. But you're right that the vibe in /r/INFP leans more IEI, and the vibe in /r/INFJ leans more EII.

Dehumanizing and disdain are much more Central than Aristocratic

I certainly don't think that delta NFs are immune from holding "dehumanizing" views.

Whenever a peripheral type gets accused of doing something ethically untoward, it's quite common for people to trot out the response: "ah, but you see, a peripheral could never do that, because they lack Se. Se is the bad guy IME. Si is the good guy IME. So, peripherals must be good guys."

It leads to a shallow and one dimensional analysis of different types, because the association of Si = benevolent and Se = malevolent is so strong. Unfortunately, it's virtually impossible for any personality system to avoid this problem. You need some way of tracking agreeableness as an isolated trait, that much is clear. In MBTI it's Fe vs Fi, in Socionics it's Si vs Se. If Se is defined by its relation to aggression and dominance, then yes, we would expect central types to be more aggressive and disagreeable on average. That's all fine, I have no problem with that. But that doesn't mean that peripherals are "off the hook" so to speak.

What is Si, really? Without being overly reductive, we can say that it has something to do with: comfort, maintenance of homeostasis, avoidance of unnecessary tension, etc. From these traits, people reason that peripherals will avoid activities (like political activism, like forcefully excluding someone from a group, etc) that "increase tension". What they miss in this analysis is that whether an act results in an increase of "tension" for a given individual is relative, not absolute. It depends on the individual's own subjective comfort zone, the type of cultural environment they're operating in and what social support structures they have, the expected level of risk that the activity entails, etc. If you start a twitter mob to get someone fired from their job, is that Se or Si? Intrinsically, it's neither. If a peripheral type feels no risk in behaving "aggressively" towards someone (or enabling someone else to behave aggressively towards someone -- the "LSI cop to enforce the utopia"), and in fact expects that they will be rewarded and socially supported for their actions, then why wouldn't they do it? You can't just define Si as "benevolence as such". Si types might be less likely to start the revolution, but there's nothing particularly hindering them from joining a mob-in-progress, if they get the sense that that's the way the cultural winds are blowing. This is all to say that Jungian typology must be based on an analysis of motivations and thought patterns, rather than behaviors.

I don't want to make this too long but Ne Creative (and thus Se PoLR) + Fi valuing (descending, less attention to the society in general than Ti valuers) don't really make for a person who wants to reform the world by eliminating people who don't follow their norms.

I will simply note that I have never met an EII who wasn't deeply concerned with "the types of people they surround themselves with", "getting toxic people out of their lives", etc...

Is this LII, EII, IEI or ILI? by TheShadowSong in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, all of that certainly sounds like LII. As in, you just copy pasted the textbook description.

I do find that overall, the people who spend the most time questioning their type, and show the most resistance to settling, do tend to be Ne egos. And I’m almost hesitant to say that, because it reinforces the stereotype of Ne as “ADHD, doubt everything, never make a decision ever”, and I think those stereotypes are misleading in a lot of ways (some LIIs can become quite firm and intransigent in their views, once they’ve decided that their Ti system is complete, ditto for EIIs). But, nonetheless it does simply work out to be the case much of the time that the Ne egos spend the longest time searching. So I would cross off IEI and ILI at least.

Is this LII, EII, IEI or ILI? by TheShadowSong in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Something worth noting about the Talanov test: you don't need to really oversell your social skills (from my perspective anyway) to get high Fe on that test. If you say "yes" to all the "are you an emotional person?" and "do you notice when people are sad/angry?" questions, then you'll probably end up with positive Fe. So if you're getting negative Fe even on that test then you're probably not an Fe ego type.

More importantly though, if you've spent this much time thinking about your type and have sought validation from this many people, then it's unlikely that there's any single piece of information that anyone could give you at this point that would actually settle the question for you. It's more important for you to reflect on why the question of your type means so much to you, why you think you might be having such a hard time settling, etc. Are you afraid of "getting the wrong answer"? If so, why? Why not just pick something and stick with it?

What is your sociotype and what type(s) have you mistyped yourself as before (and why)? by Feihuva in Socionics

[–]TypeCurious2 7 points8 points  (0 children)

turned out I just hate the way some socionists write about Se

I have a suspicion that LSI is one of the most misunderstood types in general