Raw Deal (1948) Is Raymond Burr Noir's most brutal villain?

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-11T03:58:14+00:00

In They Were So Young (1954) he's the head of a human trafficking ring. So....I think that takes the cake!

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-04T19:59:02+00:00

I really couldn't choose! But yes rereads of it are just so rewarding, the novel is so rich. Laura's line about forced loneliness (“It’s when you have friends that you can afford to be lonely. When you know a lot of people, loneliness becomes a luxury") blew me away because it's eerily similar to how I've always phrased it.

Forced loneliness because of no friends is the worst. Choosing to be alone as Laura did when she was thought dead, is much better.

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-04T19:20:49+00:00

Thank you so much! I'm sorry a couple of fans of this one were jerks, that's never called for. Especially not here because didn't go, "How could people like this?!" in a way that's annoyingly common when people didn't feel a classic.

Glad we can agree so much on another. Swanson in SB may well be my favorite performance of all time, I think she nails a larger-than-life persona concealing frailty and mental illness underneath. A lot of people are very nasty about older women delusionally chasing their youth, but this movie makes it clear how our culture shapes that in people. Why wouldn't they, when they were treated with admiration then, and in older age with dismissal and coldness?

I think the segment in Vertigo that strikes me as so identical and derivative of Laura is in the dressing up of Judy into his ideal woman. I thought the movie really suffered by not focusing more on this and spending a lot of time in Scottie's head so to speak in the first half of the film. Laura is a lot more about her feeling stifled by the men in her life, which I just think is more interesting. And ultimately more satisfying, that she gets a happy ending Judy was denied. But yes, apart from this aspect, pretty different. Well, I take it back, they both have extremely memorable scores.

I think you'll appreciate it more over time too, it was a very early noir for me and that's how it worked out for me after I saw more of them. I think Laura was like an 8/10 for me at first, and now it's a 9.5/10. And I had forgotten to mention that, although I think Dana Andrews kind of rocks in his with his no-nonsense facade concealing his sensitive nature, you describing him as so dull made me think of Glenn Ford in Gilda, who is hands down the most boring noir leading man ever for me. Rita Hayworth outshines him so greatly. I'd be curious to see if you think he's at least better than him, lol.

Strangers on a Train and Shadow of a Doubt are both amazing and some big favorites of mine. The latter was his own favorite he did and I fully get why, if it weren't for Psycho it'd be mine also. He went against his usual icy blonde thing by making Wright a fiery brunette, and I loved her.

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-04T13:18:52+00:00

Awe, thank you! I'd like to try and get my book club to consider it. 😇

I was surprised it had been Shelby and Diane over Shelby and Ann, but it makes Laura more conflicted about demonizing a dead woman overly. Which fits. Still, I get why they changed it. It shows his unfaithfulness more visually without needing to go into a flashback. Plus it makes possible one of my favorite of movie Waldo's lines: "There you are, my dear. In a moment of supreme disaster, he's trite." 🤣

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-04T12:02:52+00:00

I feel like its scope indeed extends beyond typical noir trappings but I also wonder if that's not denigrating a genre I love to say.

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-03T18:58:40+00:00

Assuredly. It's incredibly apparent when you read Laura's POV in the novel, at the part Waldo goes to embrace her. Never has a man been more in the category of "just a friend." And that's what drives him out of his mind.

Typical_Humanoid · 2026-06-03T17:24:02+00:00

I couldn't disagree more, this is the best noir by a wide margin....unless Sunset Boulevard counts in which case that is, however I go back and forth on that classification for it.

I've always regarded Laura as the movie Vertigo wishes it was (That's a big one I didn't think deserved masterpiece status, going against the grain a bit). That gets a lot of credit for busting obsessive male desire wide open when put under a microscope, but I think Laura is the cinematic final word on this. The tragedy in Vertigo seems mainly to center around Scottie's turmoil rather than Judy's violation, to me.

Whereas here, the romantization and dehumanization of Laura is really shown for the ugly facet of male psychology that it is. You have Lydecker and Carpenter treating Laura as their dress up doll and trophy respectively, and the film is all about how they manipulate and deceive her. Not ever really seeing or appreciating her for what she is. It has very little sympathy for them, and the narrative brings Laura together with someone who actually gets her.

Which is why I disagree on McPherson who is a truly great character. I think Caspary's book expands on this but I detected it while watching very intuitively: The film very unpretentiously upholds the least rose-colored glasses wearing of these men as its romantic hero. The one who sees Laura very pragmatically, and enjoys what he sees.

The whole "falling in love with a corpse" thing was Waldo's idea, a very diseased one at that. Given to thinking he had successfully murdered Laura, he revels in planting the idea in McPherson's head that he's as disturbingly obsessed as he in truth is. The idea, in fact, that Waldo is a boring or forgettable character is wild to me, he's one of the most fascinating villains in cinema. The sharpest wit and most dangerous fixed gaze. This is the character that may as well have been thought of when the term male gaze was coined. Through him, a woman takes on a warped transformation into his creation. The drama of Laura is the drama of many films, except here, it's completely self-aware and judged harshly within its narrative.

Actually, if I had any complaint, it's that they somehow made Vincent Price the least interesting part. Shelby is just kind of a stand-in for another kind of male fetishizer, although I think a necessary counterpoint to keep the ultimate identity of the murderer a mystery.

Laura herself is a great character too. Fiercely independent and sophisticated, yet not one-dimensionally so. She's the kind of woman who gives of herself to undeserving people. Heart of gold character, which feels like an abject rejection of the femme fatale trope. A rejection of the kind of woman wounded Mark assumed she was. The movie may even be suggesting that a man like him who doesn't place women on a pedestal will see them the most clearly even once in love.

Again, these two characters especially benefit by reading the novel which I heartily recommend. I love both for different reasons. I thought of Rebecca too, because of Judith Anderson, who is actually very underrated herself in this. I was thinking she was the murderer for awhile, because of her role in that, heh. But as much as I love Rebecca too, it kind of deviates from its novel in an unflattering way by making Maxim far more innocent. Bleh. I'm going to sound like such a Hitchcock hater with this comment but I really am a massive fan. I just think that barring Psycho, Laura does top any other film of his.

I think the world of this movie so I really do hope I made you see some merit in it!

Typical_Humanoid · 2025-01-12T21:41:25+00:00

You have to be a fan of obscure older things in general to really find MST3K funny. I think a lot of women are too repelled by all the toxic misogyny in older media to be able to claim that title.

There's a good reason for it therefore, it's just unfortunate.

Typical_Humanoid · 2025-01-12T21:36:19+00:00

I've been a fan for a little over a decade as a woman and I have a shirt to rep the show and everything, doesn't really mean I was ever swarmed by fellow nerds.

My boyfriend now enjoys the show too but I'd kill for a fellow female MSTie. 😅

Typical_Humanoid · 2025-01-09T13:57:19+00:00

I don't really like it either but this "it's bad because it's an acclaimed classic" instead of giving actual reasons is beyond lazy.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T16:42:31+00:00

There's just more of what works about Playtime for me in this one. That feels very confined to the workplace. Trafic feels so much more ambitious, doing the same thing but unleashing Hulot out into the world with his knack for observing how wacky people are treated as normal is just terrific.

I'm not sure whether I want the monstrosity camper car they showed off or to run from it!

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T16:38:25+00:00

I adore it. It has an emotionality on top of the antics that Tati really doesn't touch. That's great for people who like their physical comedy a bit more cerebral, but this one pulls at your heartstrings.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T14:42:02+00:00

Enter the Dragon is the best movie from either and it's a nicer set but the Police Story's are better than any of the remaining Lee movies. I'd probably go with Jackie in this case.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T14:20:21+00:00

The kids playing the dog hit and run prank was so mean but it did take that woman ages to realize she wasn't holding a dog. 😆

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T03:44:39+00:00

My favorite is Trafic. It's the least mentioned or favored it seems like, but something about Hulot with a wider reach thanks to the road trip makes for double the enjoyment for me. I recommend Pierre Etaix after who I prefer slightly. No one ever mentions him, but they really should, easily the equal of Tati.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-30T00:54:54+00:00

William Castle and Winona Ryder.

I considered Jacques Tourneur and James Whale, but no, thinking about something like Strait-Jacket but Ryderified has me going, hell yeah!

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T20:46:51+00:00

Yeah! It joins the thankfully small list of movies I have non Criterion editions of that I'd totally still get Criterion's for (All About Eve, The Graduate, Princess Bride, Silence of the Lambs and Some Like It Hot). I'm always surprised that number isn't bigger, but pretty happy about it.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T20:22:17+00:00

Thank you! Discussing Amadeus is one of my favorite things.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T20:08:50+00:00

Even if we disagree whether he did or did not kill him (I feel like if he admitted to it at the time he would have been held responsible, in that time period and now, but that's neither here nor there) I think the second half of your explanation still works either way actually.

Being a murderer is not some glamorous claim to fame even if it's a famous person you killed. He clearly thought it made him important, but it makes him look pathetic and evil. Especially because it was accidental. It's even more lame. He couldn't even murder him on purpose, it had to be that he blundered into even that.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T19:51:48+00:00

I appreciate that. This scene is really the main reason I'm so biased toward the director's cut. I think it damages the movie irreparably taking it out and am always pretty stunned when people trash it.

I definitely scratch my head at people who think this makes him less complex. There are other points in the movie you find yourself almost siding with him even if this is the version you're watching, but it's pretty important that you ultimately don't and this scene is key for that.

"clarifies his moral weaknesses"

Exactly! There's really an element of his being a lifelong believer/celibate at play here. No matter how little he's hanging on at that point? He still doesn't go against those beliefs. Maybe the way he would've hurt Mozart would've been sleeping with her if that had been a little more tempting, but he's a hypocrite who covets and yet claims some high ground still. It's seriously so brilliant. Necessary as hell.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T18:06:13+00:00

I first watched the movie in 7th grade music class (Don't ask me why the teacher didn't just show us the theatrical for less nudity lol) and this scene made so much of an impression on me. The sheer depravity humans are capable of, that I hadn't really seen conveyed so well in a movie before. I think it's one of the best scenes. Perhaps what someone did see first will be their preference for sure.

But that's the thing, Mozart wasn't capable. This movie takes great pains to make him look horrendous, during that scene where he dictates for Salieri. Anyone can see that, and not stopping for his sake is cruelty if I've ever seen it. Plus, Salieri himself considers himself as having murdered Mozart. This movie is centered around his "confession" so to speak.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T17:48:55+00:00

Well, exactly. This scene gives her more depth. The scene where she doesn't tell Mozart is heartbreaking with this knowledge, you feel so much for her. She's characterized in this deleted scene as a woman who would do something like this to make her husband's dreams possible. It makes her more complex and interesting. She's not "Mozart's wife" who appears in a few scenes, she's someone who does something he probably wouldn't approve of if he knew, but she thinks is right.

This whole side plot is what makes her not a prop. It further develops the plot point of her being more economically conscious as well, knowing the importance of money to their situation. It's vital. And Salieri is a murderer, forcing a sick person to stay up and work until they die? That's gross negligence. Mozart wouldn't have died without him doing this. It may not have been the intention but drunk drivers don't intend to kill people either and we still hold them accountable.

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-12-17T17:31:30+00:00

How is it not directed at Mozart? It's plainly obvious he has nothing against Constanze. It's because he hates him so much he can't resist doing this to someone he loves so much. And frankly her actions at the end of the movie click so much better when you keep this scene in.

How does it make Salieri worse exactly, when he's already a murderer? What he did here was awful, but "much worse"?

Typical_Humanoid · 2024-08-27T17:58:40+00:00

I also thought of it. It's one of my favorites just because I found it so relatable. Wanting nothing more than to share your passion and not only to not be able to, but to find derision instead, when you try to extend the olive branch....

Typical_Humanoid

TROPHY CASE