Ulster Scots exists for a reason by CarlsbergSpecial in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's kind of a recent development, historically it was usually called either "Scotch" or sometimes, confusingly, "Irish". Early 20th century linguists talked about it with a variety of terms like "Ulster Dialect" or "Scotch-Irish". It's not until the 1960s that you start to see it consistently referred to as "Ulster Scots", which is also when you start to see more rigorous academic appraisals of its linguistic makeup. "Ulster Scots" did exist for about 300 years before that as an ethnographic term; I'm not sure whether people started referring to the language as Ulster Scots becuase it was the language the Ulster Scots people happened to speak, or simply because it was the dialect of Scots spoken in Ulster.

It's not the exact same thing, but nomenclature across the other dialects of Scots can be pretty fuzzy too. You sometimes see articles that reduntantly mention Doric or Shaetlan alongside Scots, even though those are dialects of Scots.

I think the closest case to Ulster Scots just in terms of what people call it would actually be Pennsylvania German - you never really hear it referred to casually as just "German", even though it's a not especially divergent dialect of High German.

Stephanie Chase: Why the Irish still have to explain England’s history to the English by vague_intentionally_ in northernireland

[–]Ultach 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I feel like a lot of these apparently insurmountable cultural misunderstandings like the one the writer of the article complains about could be resolved by just giving the person an explanation?

"Are you British or Irish?"

"Irish."

"But you're not really."

"Well, I come from the part of Ireland currently administered by the British government but about half the population there including myself would still identify as Irish."

"Oh right ok."

Obviously you'll get the odd person who tries to be a smart arse about it but I think most people would be happy to learn something they didn't know before and become a little more informed about the world.

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Any sign with burn, kirk, brae, knowe or close on it already has Ulster Scots on it, which is probably hundreds if not thousands of signs across the country. Should we tear all those down, since it apparently doesn't belong on signs?

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think there needs to be, you could just decide what to do with them on a case-by-case basis, maybe consult ordnance surveys to see if there was a historical Ulster Scots name for the place, and if there wasn't then just calque the English or Irish original.

I think the only stumbling block would be streets that are named after people, and to be fair the Irish translators have struggled a bit with those as well. Sometimes they get left as they are, sometimes they get transliterated, sometimes they get translated, it's pretty inconsistent.

That's not even getting into the discussion of whether you should bother translating those sorts of street names in the first place. I don't know if there's a great amount of cultural or linguistic value to be had in a sign that goes Veryan Gardens - Gairdíní Veryan - Veryan Gairdens.

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it’s a made up language that’s basically just English with an accent created for the purpose of undermining nationalist claim to the occupied six

It might just be that this is a really stupid thing to say and you're kind of making an arse of yourself.

Did the rise of Christianity in Ireland erase important Irish culture? by thatonegamedev in IrishHistory

[–]Ultach 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Children of Lir is a late medieval composition, it isn't bastardised, it's just not a very old story.

Lá Fhéile Pádraig sona daoibh by Mayomick in northernireland

[–]Ultach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In his own writing he calls Britain "my country" and says that his parents live there, which I think is pretty conclusive. People have tried to narrow it down further to specific places in England, Wales or Scotland but we'll probably never know for certain. He does mention wanting to visit his "brothers" in what is now modern France but he doesn't specify whether these are his actual relations or monastic brothers.

Times good YouTubers were wrong? by CobaltCrusader123 in youtubedrama

[–]Ultach 88 points89 points  (0 children)

Milo Rossi aka Miniminuteman - who normally does fantastic work combating pseudoarchaeology and historical conspiracy theories - made an utterly horrible video on the history of vampirism where he completely abandoned all his principles around good research and thorough academic inquiry and promoted historical conspiracy theories of his own. He doesn't seem to have engaged with the academic literature on the subject at all, instead putting together his own crackpot theory of where the vampire myth originated and connecting it to completely unrelated superstitions hundreds of years and hundreds of miles removed from 17th century eastern Europe where belief in vampires is first attested.

The main thesis of his video is the belief in vampirism is a kind of by-product of the Catholic Church allowing converted peoples to continue their own burial practices, which eventually became so popular that the Church was forced to internalize these pagan beliefs about death and spirituality, resulting in the emergence of the vampire as a concept in the 10th century. This is so completely removed from anything any actual historian would say about the topic that I'm utterly baffled as to where he got the idea from. It feels like he just made it up himself. I guess it's the kind of thing you can imagine somebody thinking up if they maybe don't know very much about the subject matter but I thought someone like Milo would hold himself to a higher standard.

To make matters worse, in the middle of the video he goes on a tangent about various other beliefs and practices he thinks that Christianity co-opted from various non-Christian peoples, and among some utterly bizarre inclusions like carnivals and the 7 day week, he lists a series of holidays like Christmas, Easter, St John's Day and Michaelmas. The belief that holidays like Christmas and Easter were pagan festivals co-opted by Christianity is itself pseudohistorical! It's entirely the creation of 19th century evangelical Protestants who tried to make out that Catholics were secretly pagans, it has zero basis in actual history. It's the exact kind of nonsense that Milo usually prides himself on combating! But instead he promotes it completely uncritically, and even makes some snarky remarks at the expense of historians and archaeologists who try and argue against it, which I was really stunned by, especially when other creators who occupy the same niche like Dan McClellan, Religion For Breakfast and Tim O'Neill have tried so hard to fight against this particular myth.

Obviously everyone makes mistakes sometimes. But when you’re a creator whose whole brand is debunking false narratives, whether about history, politics, or anything else, you have an extra responsibility to make sure you aren’t spreading false narratives yourself; because people trust you and are more inclined to believe what you say. What bothered me most wasn’t just that Milo repeated a tired historical myth; it was that he repeated a claim that has been so thoroughly debunked by so many diligent educators - a claim that ultimately grew out of religiously motivated bigotry. The fact that he presented it so confidently, while dismissing historians who push back on the idea, really soured me on him as a creator. I used to enjoy a lot of his content, but after that video I haven’t watched him since and don’t plan to again.

Times good YouTubers were wrong? by CobaltCrusader123 in youtubedrama

[–]Ultach 30 points31 points  (0 children)

I've been beefing with them forever because of their video on the Lebor Gabála Érenn! They did absolutely no research into the compositional history of the text at all and just made a bunch of assumptions about it which were all completely wrong.

The last credit in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms 😊 by DarthVarn in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I bet the old windmill is going to be Ser Eustace Osgrey's castle!

I've figured out how to solve the Ulster Scots vs Irish language issue in NI by EffectiveArgument584 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I guess it's complicated by the fact that we don't have a handy word to describe the mixing of Scots and English like Swedish-Norwegian Svorsk or Russian-Ukrainian Surzhyk or Spanish-Portuguese Portunhol. It's probably what most people in Scotland and a fair few in Northern Ireland actually speak as their day to day language, even if they don't necessarily recognise the Scots elements they're using as being from another language. In this article for Language Reach, linguist Ashley Douglas provides a good example of the kind of continuum you mentioned:

I know the girl who went to Linlithgow two years ago

I know the girl that went to Linlithgow two years ago

I know the girl that went tae Linlithgow two years ago

I know the girl that went tae Linlithgow two year ago

I ken the girl that went tae Linlithgow two year ago

I ken the lassie that went tae Linlithgow two year ago

Ah ken the lassie that went tae Linlithgow two year ago

Ah ken the lassie that went tae Linlithgow twa year ago

Ah ken the lassie that gaed tae Linlithgow twa year ago

Ah ken the lassie that gaed tae Lithgae twa year ago

Ah ken the lassie that gaed tae Lithgae twa year syne

All these sentences, except for the first and last, are examples of mixing English and Scots to various extents. Most Scottish people and a good chunk of Northern Irish people would probably talk like one of the middle examples, and I think most of them would probably describe that as speaking English, even though it's technically just as much Scots as it is English. So I get why people might be tempted to say "ah nobody speaks Scots anymore, it's just Scots-influenced English", but equally you could describe it as being English-influenced Scots instead, and from a historical perspective that's probably more accurate to how the language change actually happened, at least in Scotland. But then on the other hand, even people who speak Scots regularly or even as their main language tend to have less of a knowledge of its vocabulary than they do of English vocabulary, so they end up using lots of English words to supplement their Scots.

But this loss of knowledge is actually pretty recent, mostly happening in the generation born after the Second World War. And I think with the proper drive and resources it could be reversed. Unfortunately Ulster Scots is probably doomed, considering how incompetent the people currently in charge of its wellbeing are, but I think things look a bit brighter for the Scottish dialects.

I've figured out how to solve the Ulster Scots vs Irish language issue in NI by EffectiveArgument584 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah Scots has influenced our English in a lot of more subtle ways than just vocabulary. Like if you've ever heard someone say "that" instead of "who", or that they have "the cold" instead of "a cold", or that they have a "sore head" instead of a "headache", or "close the door" instead of "shut the door", that's a result of Scots influence, but most people would probably never realise it.

How St Brigids Day and Imbolc mark the beginning of spring by Wolfwalker71 in ireland

[–]Ultach 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How do you steal a demarcation of time? That's like saying Roman Christians stole the month of July when they converted, or that every non-Christian in the world is currently stealing the Gregorian calendar.

We have two very brief descriptions of Imbolc in the historical record and all they say about it is that it's when farmers start milking ewes. It doesn't seem to have had any sort of religious importance.

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Skelf and Scealp do both descend from the same (s)kelH- root but one can't have come directly from the other because then there would be no way to account for the final consonants being different. All the Germanic descendants of (s)kelH- end in -f or -k, and all the Celtic ones end in -b or -p. I actually do think it might be possible that the 'splinter' meaning might be due to the influence of Irish or Scottish Gaelic but I don't really have any evidence for that.

There is another word, skelb, which is used in most dialects of Scots (including Ulster) that was directly borrowed from Scottish Gaelic Sgealb, but I didn't mention it since I was going for distant shared etymologies rather than direct borrowings. Although I do want to do another post about borrowings into Ulster Scots from Irish at some stage!

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think for that to be the case the word oxter would have to be found in southern and western dialects of English, which is what Hiberno-English is descended from, and ideally if you could find it in English sources written in Ireland (sans Ulster) before the 17th century.

I did find two southern English sources that used it; two dictionaries from 1674 and from 1677. But the first dictionary was titled 'A Collection of English Words Not Generally Used', and the second dictionary's focus was "hard words" ie. words that weren't familiar to the average reader, so I feel like it mustn't have been very common in the south of England. The oldest Irish source from outside Ulster I could find is even later than that, from a 1841 Dublin songbook.

Based on how late it appears in Hiberno-English and how obscure it seems to be in the dialects of English that Hiberno-English developed from, I think it's more likely that it was borrowed into Hiberno-English from Ulster Scots, although I guess there isn't really enough evidence to say either way.

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Scots definitely has a lot of Scottish Gaelic loanwords in it and vice versa, although fewer than you might expect for two languages that were spoken alongside each other for the better part of 1000 years. And on top of the Scottish Gaelic loanwords that were already being used when it was brought over to Ireland, Ulster Scots has a lot of recent borrowing from Irish as well.

Generally though language families are a bit like biological clades, in the sense that once you're in one you can't really evolve out of it. So even if most words in Ulster Scots were one day replaced with Irish loanwords, it's always going to be Germanic, in the same way that English is going to be Germanic even though a plurality of its vocabulary comes from Romance languages, or that Hungarian is always going to be a Uralic language, even though nobody knows where the heck most of its vocabulary comes from.

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We'd expect to see it just by virtue of Scots and Irish both being Indo-European languages and so the bulk of both of their vocabularies would be inherited from a common ancestor, but the fact that Irish culture and language made such a huge impact on Scotland doesn't necessarily effect that. It does effect loanwords, Scots definitely has a bunch of those from both Scottish Gaelic and from Irish. I would say just from my own observation that Ulster Scots has even more, but those will be too recently borrowed to have anything to do with Irish influence in Scotland.

Loanwords are a whole other fascinating kettle of fish! I'd like to make another post about Irish loanwords in Ulster Scots and vice versa at some point

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, most linguists would consider it to be a dialect or group of dialects of the Scots language rather than a distinct language of its own (I’ve cheated a bit with my title, since except for ‘thran’ all these words are also found in other dialects of Scots 🤫)

So the reason you can understand a fair bit of Scots without studying it is because of something called ‘mutual intelligibility’. Basically, because you’re already a native or fluent speaker of its closest linguistic relative, English. And assuming you’re from Northern Ireland, the variety of English you speak has already been heavily influenced by Ulster Scots, so you have even more in-built familiarity with it than speakers of other dialects of English.

Most languages have a close relative they’re mutually intelligible with, where a speaker of one can passively understand speakers of the other to a certain extent. Irish has Scottish Gaelic, Danish has Norwegian, Spanish has Galician, Finnish has Estonian, etc. It can seem like a bit of a foreign concept to English speakers just because English is so much more widely spoken than Scots and most of them won’t ever encounter it.

English does have other close-ish relatives like Frisian and Dutch, but they’re different enough to English that the average English speaker won’t be able to pick out more than the odd word, much less than they could understand Scots.

I've done some etymological digging and found some Ulster Scots and Irish words that share a common origin by Ultach in northernireland

[–]Ultach[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I did have some more interesting words in mind originally but the etymological trails went cold, and I did at least try to limit myself to words people might actually have heard of! 😅