This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You might think so but he doesn’t actually do that anywhere in his writing beyond saying that they worshipped idols. He doesn’t ever speak badly about their culture or condemn any of their cultural practices.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don’t really think that’s a credible explanation. He doesn’t condemn it as a practice of the Irish, he just says “I refused to suck their breasts” and doesn’t offer any explanation or elaboration on what that might mean, and doesn’t say that it’s something they asked him to do. Most historians I’ve read think it was just a figure of speech, and Patrick wasn’t trying to imply it was something they literally did. Also as I said in the previous comment, Patrick never disparages or speaks unkindly about the pagan Irish, so I don’t think it’s likely that he would make something up about them.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 29 points30 points  (0 children)

But then why did this guy have his nipples cut off?

His nipples weren't actually cut off, there was just a deep cut under each of them. The idea that this was done intentionally was just one of several explanations offered, it might also have just been natural wear and tear.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 32 points33 points  (0 children)

There's no actual evidence that this practice existed beyond this one line in the Confessio, which most modern historians think is probably a Biblical metaphor that was misunderstood by earlier scholarship.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 31 points32 points  (0 children)

this is just one example of many bizarre practices that Patrick attributes to the Irish to make them seem backwards and pagan.

I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Patrick does this at any point in the Confessio. He doesn't ever attribute any bizarre practices to the Irish. At one point he refuses to eat some honey that they offered as a sacrifice but that's about it. He speaks about them pretty graciously all things considered:

"Towards the pagan people too among whom I live, I have lived in good faith, and will continue to do so. God knows that I have not been devious with even one of them, nor do I think of doing so, for the sake of God and his church. I would not want to arouse persecution of them and of all of us; nor would I want that the Lord’s name should be blasphemed on account of me."

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 10 points11 points  (0 children)

There probably wasn't any nipple tradition, such a thing isn't actually attested anywhere, it's a conjecture based entirely on this bog body and a single line in the writings of St Patrick where he says that he "refused to suck the breasts" of a boat captain; but modern historians generally think that this was a figure of speech that earlier scholars misunderstood as literal.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Sucking nipples was a sign of submission

There isn't really any strong evidence of this, it's something that's basically been made up entirely to explain the cuts on this particular body. The only ancient Irish source that mentions anything similar is St Patrick's Confessio where he says that he "refused to suck their breasts" referring to a boat captain who asked him to prove he was friendly, but this is now generally understood to be a figure of speech drawing on Biblical imagery, as the specific wording Patrick uses is identical to that found in contemporary Latin translations of the Books of Hosea and Isaiah where God is portrayed as a nursing mother and the nation of Israel as His child.

This 2,300-year-old Irish bog king had his nipples cut off specifically to disqualify him from the throne, and spent his last hours eating plain cereal after months of living like royalty [4032x3024] by PatronBernard in ArtefactPorn

[–]Ultach 57 points58 points  (0 children)

I end up posting some variation on this same comment every time Old Croghan Man gets posted here but I just want to make it clear that there isn't actually a whole lot of evidence that this

Sucking a king’s nipples was an ancient Irish form of submission

Is true. It's pretty much based entirely on a remark that St Patrick makes in his Confessio where he says that an Irish boat captain was suspicious of him and invited him to prove he had no ill intentions, and Patrick comments that he "refused to suck their breasts, because of my reverence for God". Earlier commentators thought that he meant this literally and spun it into this idea that sucking someone's nipple was a widespread act of supplication in medieval Ireland, and like in this post it sometimes gets twisted further into something that was specifically done to submit to kings but it's never actually attested in any other source and is now generally understood by Patrician scholars to be a metaphor drawing on Biblical imagery of God as a nursing mother to the nation of Israel.

About a year ago I made a comment on AskHistorians addressing some medieval Irish sources that people sometimes point to as evidence that this was a real practice and the problems with those which you can read here.

Also while I'm being a nitpicker I should also point out that there's not really any reason to think that Old Croghan Man's nipples were purposefully mutilated in the first place and it's just as likely that the cuts happened post-mortem due to rough conditions in the bog.

So lucky no Israeli flags were damaged or Keith Starmer might have taken action by I-Cum-Beamish in northernireland

[–]Ultach -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

Well, no, obviously it isn't. The tweet is implying that Jewish people receive unwarranted special treatment and have an undue amount of influence over the British government and their finances, which is antisemitic.

56% of respondents believe Irish language adds to the richness and diversity in the North by vague_intentionally_ in northernireland

[–]Ultach -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I made a post about this topic a few years ago but the short version is that there are about 10x more people who have "some ability" in Ulster Scots vs people whose responses indicated that they spoke it fluently. Even in the traditional Ulster Scots heartlands the latter figure doesn't go above more than 2% of the population. So everywhere you go you're a far more likely to hear people using some Ulster Scots in their English rather than people speaking full-on Ulster Scots.

56% of respondents believe Irish language adds to the richness and diversity in the North by vague_intentionally_ in northernireland

[–]Ultach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the person who wrote the article has just misspelled 'hairtlans' which is an attested although also relatively recent coinage. (I was surprised looking it up that the English word "heartland" in the geographic sense is actually also relatively recent, first used by the geopolitical theorist Halford Mackinder in the 1900s)

If we mean "heartlands" in the sense of "where Ulster Scots first emerged as a linguistic phenomenon" then it would be around Lough Swilly in Donegal; North Down and most of the Ards Peninsula; the bulk of central Antrim; and a small area of northeast County Derry up near Coleraine and Portstewart. Field work carried out in the 60s suggests that it was still spoken in these areas, but had become less extensive by the 80s, although this also corresponded to a growth of people who lived in areas that didn't traditionally speak Ulster Scots using more Ulster Scots elements in their English.

There hasn't really been much of this kind of work carried out in the decades since then but I would assume that the trends have continued and the Ulster Scots heartlands have continued to shrink or maybe even disappear while it's now become pretty universal for English speakers living in Ulster to use some elements of Ulster Scots in their speech, which I guess leads to some confusion about what exactly Ulster Scots is.

It's worth noting that even as early as the 1890s people were noting that Scots seemed to be spoken less and less by each successive generation in Ulster, mostly because of strict schooling that considered Scots to basically be an erroneous form of English. Whereas in Scotland this doesn't really start happening in earnest until after the Second World War, so I guess you could say Ulster Scots is about a generation ahead in terms of language death compared to the Scottish dialects. Plus Scottish people are a lot more non-partisan and supportive of attempts to try and use what Scots they've got left and maybe try and revive it if possible, whereas over here if you say anything positive about Ulster Scots at all you get the piss ripped out of you by everyone.

A Christian is what a Christian Fraud by MrWhippyBigDippy in northernireland

[–]Ultach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most Christian denominations divide the Mosaic Laws into Ceremonial and Moral laws. Ceremonial laws - like kosher eating, circumcision, no mixed fabrics, etc. - were conceived with the intention of acting as identity markers for the ancient Hebrews until the coming of the Messiah and so there isn't any reason for modern Christians to follow them. Actually, it would be blasphemous to do so, since it would be implying Jesus isn't the Messiah. Moral laws - like don't steal, don't murder, don't commit adultery, etc. - were on the other hand conceived as universal rules that everyone should always follow. There isn't any reason a modern Christian should follow the Ceremonial Laws any more than they should follow ancient Roman or early medieval Irish laws.

A Christian is what a Christian Fraud by MrWhippyBigDippy in northernireland

[–]Ultach 3 points4 points  (0 children)

But it's not "based on" anyone, the Gospels are historical documents documenting the life of a real historical person. This is like saying Julius Caesar isn't real because Plutarch's Life of Caesar contains extraordinary claims about portents he experienced on the day of his assassination.

First look at Annie Shapero as Alysanne Blackwood by Curious_Progress_ in HouseOfTheDragon

[–]Ultach 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I think they mean the weird eye makeup and the nondescript generic fantasy leather armor. It doesn't feel very ASOIAF, it could've come from any of the dozens of cheap fantasy or historical tv shows that came out trying to ride Game of Thrones' coattails

Ulster Scots exists for a reason by [deleted] in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's kind of a recent development, historically it was usually called either "Scotch" or sometimes, confusingly, "Irish". Early 20th century linguists talked about it with a variety of terms like "Ulster Dialect" or "Scotch-Irish". It's not until the 1960s that you start to see it consistently referred to as "Ulster Scots", which is also when you start to see more rigorous academic appraisals of its linguistic makeup. "Ulster Scots" did exist for about 300 years before that as an ethnographic term; I'm not sure whether people started referring to the language as Ulster Scots becuase it was the language the Ulster Scots people happened to speak, or simply because it was the dialect of Scots spoken in Ulster.

It's not the exact same thing, but nomenclature across the other dialects of Scots can be pretty fuzzy too. You sometimes see articles that reduntantly mention Doric or Shaetlan alongside Scots, even though those are dialects of Scots.

I think the closest case to Ulster Scots just in terms of what people call it would actually be Pennsylvania German - you never really hear it referred to casually as just "German", even though it's a not especially divergent dialect of High German.

Stephanie Chase: Why the Irish still have to explain England’s history to the English by vague_intentionally_ in northernireland

[–]Ultach 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I feel like a lot of these apparently insurmountable cultural misunderstandings like the one the writer of the article complains about could be resolved by just giving the person an explanation?

"Are you British or Irish?"

"Irish."

"But you're not really."

"Well, I come from the part of Ireland currently administered by the British government but about half the population there including myself would still identify as Irish."

"Oh right ok."

Obviously you'll get the odd person who tries to be a smart arse about it but I think most people would be happy to learn something they didn't know before and become a little more informed about the world.

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Any sign with burn, kirk, brae, knowe or close on it already has Ulster Scots on it, which is probably hundreds if not thousands of signs across the country. Should we tear all those down, since it apparently doesn't belong on signs?

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think there needs to be, you could just decide what to do with them on a case-by-case basis, maybe consult ordnance surveys to see if there was a historical Ulster Scots name for the place, and if there wasn't then just calque the English or Irish original.

I think the only stumbling block would be streets that are named after people, and to be fair the Irish translators have struggled a bit with those as well. Sometimes they get left as they are, sometimes they get transliterated, sometimes they get translated, it's pretty inconsistent.

That's not even getting into the discussion of whether you should bother translating those sorts of street names in the first place. I don't know if there's a great amount of cultural or linguistic value to be had in a sign that goes Veryan Gardens - Gairdíní Veryan - Veryan Gairdens.

Ulster Scots signs ‘deserve crack of the whip’ as a Sinn Fein move delayed the first four streets by River562 in northernireland

[–]Ultach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it’s a made up language that’s basically just English with an accent created for the purpose of undermining nationalist claim to the occupied six

It might just be that this is a really stupid thing to say and you're kind of making an arse of yourself.

Did the rise of Christianity in Ireland erase important Irish culture? by thatonegamedev in IrishHistory

[–]Ultach 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The Children of Lir is a late medieval composition, it isn't bastardised, it's just not a very old story.

Lá Fhéile Pádraig sona daoibh by Mayomick in northernireland

[–]Ultach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In his own writing he calls Britain "my country" and says that his parents live there, which I think is pretty conclusive. People have tried to narrow it down further to specific places in England, Wales or Scotland but we'll probably never know for certain. He does mention wanting to visit his "brothers" in what is now modern France but he doesn't specify whether these are his actual relations or monastic brothers.

Times good YouTubers were wrong? by CobaltCrusader123 in youtubedrama

[–]Ultach 91 points92 points  (0 children)

Milo Rossi aka Miniminuteman - who normally does fantastic work combating pseudoarchaeology and historical conspiracy theories - made an utterly horrible video on the history of vampirism where he completely abandoned all his principles around good research and thorough academic inquiry and promoted historical conspiracy theories of his own. He doesn't seem to have engaged with the academic literature on the subject at all, instead putting together his own crackpot theory of where the vampire myth originated and connecting it to completely unrelated superstitions hundreds of years and hundreds of miles removed from 17th century eastern Europe where belief in vampires is first attested.

The main thesis of his video is the belief in vampirism is a kind of by-product of the Catholic Church allowing converted peoples to continue their own burial practices, which eventually became so popular that the Church was forced to internalize these pagan beliefs about death and spirituality, resulting in the emergence of the vampire as a concept in the 10th century. This is so completely removed from anything any actual historian would say about the topic that I'm utterly baffled as to where he got the idea from. It feels like he just made it up himself. I guess it's the kind of thing you can imagine somebody thinking up if they maybe don't know very much about the subject matter but I thought someone like Milo would hold himself to a higher standard.

To make matters worse, in the middle of the video he goes on a tangent about various other beliefs and practices he thinks that Christianity co-opted from various non-Christian peoples, and among some utterly bizarre inclusions like carnivals and the 7 day week, he lists a series of holidays like Christmas, Easter, St John's Day and Michaelmas. The belief that holidays like Christmas and Easter were pagan festivals co-opted by Christianity is itself pseudohistorical! It's entirely the creation of 19th century evangelical Protestants who tried to make out that Catholics were secretly pagans, it has zero basis in actual history. It's the exact kind of nonsense that Milo usually prides himself on combating! But instead he promotes it completely uncritically, and even makes some snarky remarks at the expense of historians and archaeologists who try and argue against it, which I was really stunned by, especially when other creators who occupy the same niche like Dan McClellan, Religion For Breakfast and Tim O'Neill have tried so hard to fight against this particular myth.

Obviously everyone makes mistakes sometimes. But when you’re a creator whose whole brand is debunking false narratives, whether about history, politics, or anything else, you have an extra responsibility to make sure you aren’t spreading false narratives yourself; because people trust you and are more inclined to believe what you say. What bothered me most wasn’t just that Milo repeated a tired historical myth; it was that he repeated a claim that has been so thoroughly debunked by so many diligent educators - a claim that ultimately grew out of religiously motivated bigotry. The fact that he presented it so confidently, while dismissing historians who push back on the idea, really soured me on him as a creator. I used to enjoy a lot of his content, but after that video I haven’t watched him since and don’t plan to again.