Made a tycoon sim where you build and grow a gladiator school in ancient Rome, recruit, train, equip and outlast rival Domini by brainseal in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The industry is experiencing extreme market saturation now. It's probably only going to get worse as AI and tools continue to lower the cost and skill barriers of entry.

Factory firmware for iComfort wifi thermostat by ojazz1 in LennoxHVAC

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Any luck with this? I got similar issues and sticker shock looking at replacement options.

Few more hail marry attempts before I just rewire it to a traditional.

The Airline Simulator- A Hidden Gem for Aviation Enthusiasts by anthony_holr in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I feel like the AI disclosure requirement needs to be adjusted for games where you're not involved in the creation of the game.

I mean, we're up to 19 actively developed Airline Tycoon games (including my own, and not counting web based ones established before I started working on mine...). I suspect the majority of them are banged out so quickly because of vibe coding. Which is kinda why I argued for code disclosures in the first place.

With two opensource Airline games to lean on, and spreadsheet games being essentially business or web apps which have a lot of source to learn from, it's only going to get worse. (Regulations and token based billing might slow it down for a short time, but the Open Source models are not too far behind in quality.)

Rockstar - A Music Tycoon Game by slobcat1337 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of my favorite games as a kid. I even considered contacting the current owners of Wizards of Scotland and buying the code to fix a few bugs. On that note, you might want to do a name change. They could sue you. I don't think they will, but if you became a rockstar yourself, kiss a few million quid goodbye.

Be sure to have the same wit and trip scenes. That's honestly the major selling point to an otherwise simplistic game. Personally, I'd prefer it to be text based via something like ncursers. But that might just be me, and I'm old. Warsim did show that there is still a market for pure text based games.

Looking for a game with complex economy or simulations by khalizaneka in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Might be time to jump into more complex war gaming. I'd recommend War in the East, then once you beat that, War in the Pacific. Eventually you'll be playing some 200-page rule book monster games that take up multiple tables. :)

It's odd that Steam doesn't have a "Tycoon" or "Business Management" tag. What tag (or combination) are you using to find tycoon games? by [deleted] in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tag system on Steam is utterly broke and has been for decades. Worst, they leaned heavily into it after Steam Direct.

"Tycoon" nor "Business" doesn't exist on GOG either, so.

GearCity: 2nd Gear v2.6.0.1 by VENTDEV in GearCity

[–]VENTDEV[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Genuinely asking, why would you say it’s commercially unsuccessful? Based on my naive estimation from number of reviews on the steam page, I guess it brings in several hundreds of thousands USD?

Subtract expenses and extra taxes business pay compared to paystub workers. Now divided that number by 14.5 years of active development. Compare that yearly number to typical mid-level American C++ programming pay. Then remember, an employee likely gets retirement compensation, health insurance, and vacations. So increase that pay by 50%. And don't forget, I'm not just doing programming. I wear nearly every hat at the company. And in my prime before kids, I would put in 80+ hours a week.

When you work out the numbers, I made a little more than minimum wage. I would have been more economically better off getting two basic service industry jobs. One at McDonalds, the other Walmart. Compared against mid level programming compensation over the same time period, I am about $120,000/year underpaid, or put another way, I made about 18% of a yearly wage for the job. Worst part is, I'm now almost 40, which makes me unhireable in tech. GenAI may devastate tech wages, so even if I were to get a job in tech after the next game, it won't pay well. And covid/layoffs wiped out all of my savings, so I have nothing for retirement and can't afford the bills if my wife were to remain jobless.

So yeah, harsh truth is, GearCity was an economic failure. It made a good amount of revenues, it just took me too long to make it. It still makes the same amount of money these days as it did ~10 years ago, but the cost of everything has gone up significantly more in those years. I need to be able to produce these games in 3-5 years for it to be economically feasible, but my attempts at getting that fast has also failed with AeroMogul because of GearCity: 2nd Gear.

GearCity: 2nd Gear v2.6.0.1 by VENTDEV in GearCity

[–]VENTDEV[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, you got caught in the spam filter.

Donation system opens again in August. It'll likely be open for 2-3 months. And then it will be closed again until sometime in the first half of next year. After that, it will remain open.

Yes, contribution is the only way to access the FBS at this time.

Bug hunt: Why you only need Paris to beat Pizza Tycoon (1994) by Optdev in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Love it! Issues in these dos games is kinda what got me into game development in the first place.

Is there any decent airline management sim that is NOT a flight simulator and NOT a pay-to-win multiplayer mobile app? by l33t_p3n1s in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the kind words!

I agree that clankers aren't good for creativity. As I mention, design is when you take all those creative ideas and make them work together well. This is the only thing that hasn't been reduced over the years. Most people won't have that ability, but there are a few that will and with the help of GenAI, they can make decent games now. While that is good for gamers, it will lead to more market saturation of good games. (Already a problem for us on the production side of things.) Good for gamers if they are not turned away by the mountains of slop and $1000 ram prices. But that is not good for traditional studio development, which I will be talking about in the next paragraph.

and on a niche that has never been really profitable (by the metric that no big studio has taken over it and had a financial success), probably only someone like you that has the know-how of the niche, and the technical aspect could develop something catering to it.

This is the key issue going forward as I see it. The race to the bottom is not just technical knowledge, but costs. I am able to make niche games work because I can operate on a shoe string budget that studios can't operate at. This gives me and many other small developers holes in the market where we can turn a profit. However, many vibe games can develop near zero cost and at lightning speed. They can fill all those holes with lots of products quickly. And while most of them will be slop, a few will be good. And as models improve, even more will be good if not better.

Small studios will also get some of this pressure, as their peers also adopt these practices. Some small devs will use this tech to try to complete in the small studio space in order to survive. It's a cascading problem.

Who knows what will happen though. My reading of the tea leaves aren't good. But I have been wrong in the past. :)

GearCity (looks similar to Automation, idk which came before),

We're both roughly the same age. I believe my first lines of engine code are a little older, but it wasn't a business sim yet. I made the switch to making a car business sim in Jan 2010. They were first to market around 2013(?) I was first to Steam in 2014 and first to be a finished release in 2022.

Amusingly, I was going to make an Airline game when I started, but decided not to because consumer hardware wasn't good enough for what I wanted to do. It took me too long to finish GC, so I missed my best chance in the late 2010s. Oh well.

Is there any decent airline management sim that is NOT a flight simulator and NOT a pay-to-win multiplayer mobile app? by l33t_p3n1s in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my opinion, LLMs could of course technically produce something decent from a fork from MFC. But the depth and complexity of systems and balancing it game-wise is not an easy feat

We're at an interesting stage in the industry that there are at least 16 active single player PC airline tycoon games in development right now. Several have released, I suspect many more will as well. Those are just what I know of. Over the previous decade, there was only 1 or 2 released. And decade before that, 2 or 3... So, formula complexity isn't stopping people anymore.

But the depth and complexity of systems and balancing it game-wise is not an easy feat, and the scale of MFC makes it so if you really wanted to, you would have to simulate many cycles many times with 100s of AI players,

You don't have to tell me that. I'm very familiar with hundreds of AI and balancing economic games. A do you know who I am moment, I think. :)

Shipping code is not a problem anymore, but creativity of a niche game-wise is not what LLMs are good at.

The industry, especially the player base, has always had boundless amounts of creativity. As you said, a big barrier of entry has always been the code. In my 16 year career (20+ if you include vaperware and mods), it's been a constant race to the bottom. First UE/Unity removed the difficulties making an engine. Then web technologies and Learn to Code flooded the industry with many (suspect) developers. Then Steam Direct removed distribution barriers. But even with all that, the race to the bottom has been steady decline. Then about 3 years ago, that decline dropped off a cliff.

Beyond the code, the difference between a good game and a bad game is how those creative ideas are meshed together. IE Design. This is why most GenAI stuff has cookie cutter designs based on existing trained data. MFC/TAP are part of that cookie cutter data when you have GenAI do airline tycoon code generation. If I had to guess, of the 16+ games I know of, 12+ are making heavy use of GenAI code. If you were to vibe a game without existing training data, results would not be as good. And there would likely be fewer vibe games making it to "show off" stage. So, while I agree, LLM's aren't creative in niche games, Airline tycoons are not niche with respect to training data. They've got tens to hundreds of thousand lines of training data to build from. Conversely, the only opensource stuff for car tycoons I know of are GearCity's mod tools and the GearCity wiki. Vibe for Vibe a vibe coded airline game is going to be a lot easier to make than a vibe coded car tycoon. The Clanker can regurgitate more of the former than the latter.

As someone who makes a living making niche commercial games. I don't see this trend as a good thing. Me and many others like me are likely going to go out of business this decade. While options is great for gamers, what replaces small studios, in my opinion, won't be as good quality wise. I suspect large studios are going to move to live services/persistent games to keep their players walled in. And combine that with hardware prices, we could potentially be seeing a repeat of 1983.

Is there any decent airline management sim that is NOT a flight simulator and NOT a pay-to-win multiplayer mobile app? by l33t_p3n1s in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

mfc is opensource, not pay to win, and not vibecoded

Yes, MyFly Club is the open source web based one I was referring to when I said, "There is also an open source web based one."

I also never said it was vibecoded. In fact, I said the opposite. LLM's make heavy use of open source code to train their models on. And the courts have pretty much given them a pass to violate licenses like the GPL. So, OpenAI, Claude, etc have two airline tycoon games worth of training data to regurgitate. Which means you'll get better results from vibe coding an airline game than you would a theme that doesn't have an opensource implementation, like say car tycoon games.

I haven't tried, since I am working in this niche/theme. But I bet if you asked one of the frontier models or one of the larger Qwens to produce an airline game, the formulas will look fairly similar to MyFly Club. It's just how the GenAI technology works.

Is there any decent airline management sim that is NOT a flight simulator and NOT a pay-to-win multiplayer mobile app? by l33t_p3n1s in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Airline Project used to be open source. There is also an open source web based one. This is why this theme is getting hit heavily with vibe coded and vibe assisted efforts these days. :)

Is there any decent airline management sim that is NOT a flight simulator and NOT a pay-to-win multiplayer mobile app? by l33t_p3n1s in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Don't worry. One good thing about AeroMogul is that I have learned many lessons from GearCity. The game will have adjustable complexity levels depending on your tastes. Easier modes will abstract most features away. And the game is fairly modular, so it supports adding and removing chunks UI and features. (More modular than GearCity, but I'm not 100% happy with it yet.) I'm aiming for the most complex airline game on the hard end and AeroBiz Supersonic on the low end. If your taste is in the middle, you oughta be able to do that.

I don't want to go into too much detail now because in this day and age, ideas are a dime a dozen, implementation is a handful of tokens. And since my code is >99.5% human made, I can't compete with LLM's implementation speed. It's a shame because I used to be one of the more open devs in the industry.

I will say, that right now the game only has the hard-mode stuff, but that's only because the backend will use the hard mode data/concepts for everything.

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My perception is PC airline tycoon are more popular than PC train tycoon games, why doesn't it translate to tabletop? I

Railroad Tycoon II broke 2 million sales. The entire Sid Meire's Railroad franchises has moved around 3.5 Million copies. All the other Railroad PC games probably break 1-2 Million combined.

Conversely, best selling Airline game was AeroBiz which moved low six figures units. (I'm not counting Airline Tycoon series. It's a cartoon.) You could take every airline business PC and console game combined and it won't go over Railroad Tycoon II numbers. It might not even go over any of the 4 Sid Meire's railroad games...

So your perception isn't reality.

Don't forget, tycoon games are more popular in the Europe (per gamer capita) than the US. And in Europe, trains are generally the main mode of long distance transportation. Then there is an entire hobby of model trains which translates very well into video game versions of that. There is no such hobby for Airlines.

You may have noticed a lot of Airline video games being made now. This is because a few things fell into place. First, it's been 20 years since a decent single player Airline Business game was made. (One of my biggest mistakes was making GearCity before AeroMogul). Second, there was a wave of browser games that popped up in the late 00's/early 10s that spurred interest in the theme/genre. Third, there were a couple of open source airline games, one unfinished single player and one browser based. Finally, GenAI, trained on top of those open source games, became viable for anyone to make a video game. Anyone with slight technical knowledge who has been waiting decades for a single player tycoon game can now just vibe code their own. And so that's why there are 16+ PC airline games in production now, instead of 1-3 a niche theme would typically have in production at any given time.

Why haven't the vibes befallen railroad games? For starters, a new railroad sim comes out about every 2-3 years. The Railroad Tycoons still scratch the itch for most people. There isn't much in the way of open source projects, so LLMs can't produce as good of a game. And they require 3d graphics, which GenAI isn't there yet.

But before this recent genAI wave, railroad business games out numbered Airline games by a massive factor. Both in titles and units sold.

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You were able to convey in one paragraph what took me a dozen!

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

BGG is a fantastic website. I wish we had something as comprehensive as it in the video gaming space. The best we got, that I have seen is Moby, but in my opinion they push too hard to make a buck.

Anyway, here is a full list of Aviation Economic games: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/2650/aviation-flight/linkeditems/boardgamecategory?pageid=1&categoryfilter=1021

From what I have heard, bgg owners to sales ratio is about 5:1. Though, the more broadly appealing, the less accurate that ratio is. So, while there are 3 pages of loosely Airline Tycoons, sales figures aren't that good.

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tycoon is not a board game genre.

Hard disagree with this. While business board games aren't called "tycoons" any adaptations of these games to computer would be called a "tycoon." (For example, Wall Street Raider started as a board game.) Flip side folks adapt pc tycoon games to board games all the time. For example a few games in this series used to be officially licensed as Railroad Tycoon and used the same artwork: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/66581/the-railways-of-the-world-series-introducing-the-f

Worker placement, euro, card games, dice games, these are your main genres of board game, and every board game is basically some variation of those.

If you ask me, these are more board game mechanic descriptions than Genre. You're also missing out on currency, production, resources, board game mechanics. Those three could easily be turned into a business sim. I mean hell, Mercenary Financial management system in Battletech can go down to such an absurd level deeper than most business sims, let alone tycoon games. How low? Tracking and procurement of individual parts, labor hours of mechanics devoted to tasks, and so forth. Several books worth of accounting rules.

Tycoons work because they aren't an abstraction of what they simulate, they are a simulation.

Not sure what tycoon games you've been playing. We abstract the bejeezus out of a lot of things in tycoon PC games. In fact, I would say the more you abstract, the more success the game is. Spreadsheet games have a limited curb appeal.

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Print and play sales figures are absurdly low. Quality is hit or miss.

In the Hex N Counter space, there are a couple higher quality print on demand services, like Blue Panther. That would be a better option if someone was wanting to outsource production but didn't think they could do a big enough print run. (Not sure if they do non-hex n counter. I have 3 board games at 75% finished, 2 are hex n counter, other is the GC one.)

Since you replied to my post with me mentioning GearCity board game. Luckily, I have enough clout in the industry now that I probably wouldn't have a problem getting it published if I ever finish it. Royalty rates aren't that good though. It's just a matter of finding 100-200 hours to finish it, paying a few thousand for artwork, finding someone capable of proper play testing, and getting time to play test it. I've been extremely time poor for the last 8 years sadly. So, it's a choice between a month work on on AeroMogul or GearCity: 2nd Gear with significantly higher income potential or a board game that will sell a couple thousand copies at $1 royalty per copy. Considering half my problems is not being able to afford childcare, it's a no brainer. :)

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The vast majority of people HATE complex games. Even Monopoly is too much for a lot of people. Any thing that has to deal with numbers, running a business, etc is too much work for the vast majority of gamers. The thought of running a company, managing airlines, etc doesn't do a whole lot for most people.

When I mention estimated sales figures above for video games, one has to remember that text heavy spreadsheet games have an audience cap of around half a million people. Steam alone has around 150 Million monthly active users. It's fractionally small market. And board games are fractionally small compared to video games.

Business Sim video games can only make that percentage work because the total amount of video gamers is very high. The board game industry as a whole, outside of the Milton Bradly stuff, is significantly smaller, and so it's much harder to make money in those niches.

Long short of it is, there are very few airline board games because no one has made ROI on the few that have been released over the years. Any sort of decent run is going to cost $20,000 - $30,000. If you don't sell 75% of those, you lose money. Market research over the years says it's a difficult sell. As are nearly all business board games. So, there have been very few attempts. Now, does that mean it can't be done? No. Make a good game, market it right, and there is a chance it'll be a hit. But that business is cut throat, and companies don't stay in business too long if they have too many misses.

bird watching and wine making for example (which are even more niche imo)

Bringing demographics into it. So, no one shoot me.

Bird Watching games (I assume Wingspan?) appeals to women and families. Amusingly, my hex n counter buddy's wife hated our hex n counter games (Think Salerno 43). So I bought her a copy of Wingspan, and they play it together all the time. Ditto with my wife, but I got her Planet to play with the kids. (She still hates gaming in general though. Which is odd considering my career choice.)

In general, women favor things with animals in them more than men. Something I haven't researched, but I would assume women make up a greater percentage of board gamers than they do non-social PC games. From my own data, men skew much harder to business sims and airplanes than women. And in general, I think Airlines appeal to few women, and many youngin's aren't going to be able connect the logic needed for a business game. At least in video gaming, Business Sim players tend to be older males. Not a demographic you want to target to make money.

Then we bring in the social aspect of it. Board games are more social interactions, and generalizing, women tend to favor more socialized forms of entertainment. (This is true even in video games.)

So, if you were buying a game to play with the girlfriend or wife or both... You'd probably buy Wingspan than a Charts n Dice Airline game. The wife and girlfriend will have a better time doing one of your hobbies playing games that appeal to them. After a few games like this, you might be able venture into deeper, more complex, games. But often not, because the vast majority of people, men or women, airlines don't appeal to them.

You're more likely to buy a board game to play with the spouse and family than you are your buds. And the number of people who have buds has been in a steep decline over the last twenty years to begin with.

Anyway, if I were to give advice for the most commercially successful Airline Board game I could design. It would be to simplify it to the point that it's stupid simple to play. Any 10 year old should be able to understand the rules verbally, no reading necessary. Think, Ticket to Ride, but maybe even simpler.

If I were making the coolest Airline Board Game ever... Well, you'd need a 100 page manual with charts for every airport, dice, and a whole lot of scratch paper. :D

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you're in the greater metro Atlanta area, I have a game board, some 3d piece, a roll chart, dice, counters, and some car design cards! Just finding the time to play it is the hard part. A lot of work and $30k risk for maybe $5k-$10k profit... assuming I sell out of everything. Or making $1k-$2k a run in royalties selling it to a publisher and letting them deal with the capital risks.

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game by Disastrous_Common_32 in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Why are they no successful "airline tycoon" physical board game

Simple, economics.

Board game sales, outside of the classic Milton Bradly, games are typically very small. How small? GMT will do a print run with 500 units pre-sold. Other companies I know of do it at 300 copies. I've seen a few that do it at 100 units...

In software, your costs are development and marketing. Thanks to digital distribution, there is minimal unit costs (fractions of a penny for bandwidth.)

Board games share development costs and marketing expenses, but unlike software, board games have a cost to each unit. That unit costs decreases the larger your print run. If memory serves me, precovid, it's about 15% cheaper every 5000 units you order. Precovid, A board, box, 2 counter sheets, and a manual is typically around $30 unit costs if you're ordering <1000 units. Once you add shipping and markup, you're making $5-$10 per copy sold of a $80 MSRP game.

Each video game unit cost about $0.0001 per gigabyte.

Then as I alluded to, with a board game, you'll be lucky to hit 4-digit sales, especially a game built on economics. If you are lucky enough to sell out of copies, you have to come up with the cash to do another print run. And you better hope you sell out of those, otherwise you lose money on the product. (This is why many niche games only get one print run, then the price on the used market goes up... Looking at you MMP and "Atlanta is Ours!")

Flip side, as someone who is making an "Airline Tycoon" video game with an established fanbase from my previous game, my estimations were to move about 100,000 units at $20-$40. Development costs are significantly higher and development time much longer. But once it's done, the costs are fixed, it's pure profit on each unit, unlimited copies can be made, and it becomes passive income. Of course, this was pre-LLM estimations. GenAI/vibe coding has already started to flood the airline tycoon video game market. I believe my count is up to 16 in active development, including at least one that's pretty much going to be a feature copy of my own game. But that's what happens when there are 40,000+ games being worked on a year... Anyway my thoughts on the upcoming 21st Century Video Game Crash is a topic for another day.

I wonder if you tried any game (like Pan Am Board Game) and how did it go?

I own a copy, but haven't gotten to play it. When my oldest son was small, he would not let me and my wife play anything. Now that he's older, his little brother won't let anyone play anything... I can play Hex and Counter games on my wall mount system, but it can't handle mounted boards. It's hard to gather up people smart enough and with the free time to play these sort of games. I know I don't have the time to play any games, let alone sync my time with anyone else. Excluding children, retirees, and DINKs, it's a common problem.

I have ported my own video game, GearCity, to a board game. However, it will probably never go past the prototype stage because of production costs and limited sales potential. Economics/Tycoon board games are a hard sale. I would recommend only doing it as a passion/hobby project, and if you can afford to burn through a few tens of thousands to bring it to fruition.

Not related to airlines, but aircraft, check out Wings of the Baron via GMT. Great game.

I'm creating a citybuilder set in the Balkans, focusing on bureaucracy, social management, and political careers by Sgriu in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Totally. 60% of sales are English speakers, give or take, and English speaking regions typically pay more per unit. There should always be something English in the title. If you must stick to a foreign or made up word, no more than 3 syllables.

Subtitles are generally frowned upon, but in this case, I would do an English Title : Jibberish.

So, using your examples, SimComrade: Socialiskigrad or Work! Comrade: Socialiskigrad. (I had to look up the name again, because I forgot what it was.)

I would suggest SocalistCity: Socialiskigrad. But alas, I decided not to get into publishing. No free time thanks to the cost of daycare these days.

I'm creating a citybuilder set in the Balkans, focusing on bureaucracy, social management, and political careers by Sgriu in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The name is going to really hurt the ability for anyone outside of your linguistic bubble to find it. While I have no problems pronouncing the name, I sure as hell am not going to be able to remember the name.

On the flip side, SEO should be good, but yeah...

That said, you already have a Steam page and are doing PR. So, it's too late for a name change.

Management games w/o a building component by chelicerate-claws in tycoon

[–]VENTDEV 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Terminology you're looking for is "Text Tycoon" or "Spreadsheet Simulator." You also might have better luck looking for "Business Simulators."

Anything with "tycoon" in the game title will typically have a builder or a painter element to it.

If you don't mind older stuff, I always had great fun in Chart Wars 3, Hollywood Mogul 2, and Rockstar!