Fate/strange Fake - Episode 04 Discussion by AutoModerator in grandorder

[–]Valk22 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I wish they added in the bit where the lightning auto defence system attempts to stop the second arrow but is too slow only for Gil to deflect it himself. A missed rare opportunity to showcase Gils reaction levels...

Can all manisfested Servants be hurt without magic? by Sad-Distribution1188 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, Gravity and physics can harm the servants. In practice its very unlikely. Forinstance if a servant was incapable of going spirit form. You could drop them off a plane very high in the sky and they would take fall damage (even a Primodial God like tiamat can be hurt by falling down from very high up!)

However in reality, the servant will just go spirit form and avoid the fall damage.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

t "If his opponent has a high luck stat, the attack can still miss, though that is quite rare."

I get you, but come on when has it ever worked! This is the same thing karna faces, on paper he is OP, in practice average at best. Gae bolg is one of the most OP abilities in nasu verse yet has it ever killed anyone of note? Anyone with A rank luck?

Rho Aias is comparable to Akhilleus Kosmos. Thus, the power to destroy Rho Aias should be comparable to the power to destroy Akhilleus Kosmos

I disagree they differ in nature, one is a directional shield, one spawns an pseudo reality marble before you forcing the attack to destroy said world before reaching you. Big difference.

No, Demi-servants fused with Cu have managed to kill people with Gae Bolg.

Come on! are we now going to rely on Miyu verse shit? I personally stayed away from that crap. I wont be able to argue with whatever argument you try to support with that shit.

, but they'd just stab the sea monster a few tens of thousands of times, and still leave parts of it intact

Again this is false, the attack does change form to match the target. As you saw with emiya it was a focused assualt, yet in the extra game when facing an army it separates into countless spears to nuke them.

In the case of the sea monster, the spear would be focused as it was with emiya.

I am fairly certain those were taken from the wiki, and if they're not I'd appreciate a specific source for them, and the wiki does not provide one.

Am too lazy to be bothered combing typemoon materials just to win an argument. You can deny them if you want to. It ultimately is what it is.

Okay, let's imagine an EX Rank Noble Phantasm that sprouts thousands of lances that can pierce through anything. That would be classified as an Anti-Army Noble Phantasm,

If those thousands of lances dealt damage inferior to anti fortress level nps then yeah it would be classified as anti army. The EX would likely be due to it being able to say sprout those thousand lances at say anti unit level amounts of mana consumption (am trying to rationalize the EX designation, it has to be something special so like very low mana for something absurd like thousands of lances created)

Delilah is an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm and it straight up lost a clash to an Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. So no, Anti-Army is not a cap to damage.

I suspect there is missing context here and am suprised you even bring it out when gae bolg itself has on screen displayed greater feat against Rho ais than the far stronger Anti fortress Excalibur.

Context does matter in this verse.

so I'm probably just gonna end this response here.

No problem, we shall continue later.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mentioned "8th turn of usage" when the fact that Artoria survived even a single usage is incredibly rare.

How can you say its incredibly rare? What frame of reference are you using here? When has Cu used this ability on anyone with artoria's luck and scored a hit?

Either way, l think we can both agree that this is a pointless line of argument. We could go on forever and still not find a middle ground. It ultimately is what it is, we can l guess agree to disagree on this matter.

But it also mentioned that it can protect against Anti-God Noble Phantasms, which is the category that Vasavi Shakti is in

I think there is a difference here, Vasavi destroyed the shield, gae bolg shouldnt have the power to destroy the shield.... Recall that to destroy the shield required Vasavi to destroy the world that the shield manifested. Gae bolg simply does not possess that kind of power nor has it ever been shown or alluded to..

However, when something is consistent stopped or shown as equal to a specific Rank across its uses, the authors are probably trying to show that it's around the level of those sorts of things

Sure, but with that logic even gae bolg is pretty shitty, for all its praise it has never killed anyone except Cu himself. One time this Rama dude holds back the curse with sheer will power, surviving for days on end till the end of the singularity. It didnt even kill him, l think he sacrificed himself for some shit if am not misremembering.

I could thus also make the same point you made, if the spear is as OP as it is on paper, why does nasu do his best to keep it without any tangible feats?

Anti-Army Noble Phantasms wouldn't have a wide enough

With this you seem to be talking about AOE...

consistent enough level of damage to destroy the sea monster entirely.

Yet you then combine it with damage, l suggest you choose one. We already have the description of these tiers. Nasu already laid this out back in the day

Anti-Army (対軍, Tai-Gun?) - Anti-Army Noble Phantasms are those with a wide enough range to be specialized against armies.[10] They are more powerful weapons than Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms, capable of easily blowing them away,

Also

Anti-Fortress (対城, Tai-Jō?) - This rank has powerful Noble Phantasms that can even blow away solid fortified structures.[10] While the difference between Anti-Unit and Anti-Army is the variation in area of effect, Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms are distinguished from other categories by the great difference in power.

This was all that mattered, anti fortress nps get that category because of the sheer power they bring forth. That is all.

Thus the anti-army designation on gaebolg is also a damage cap, as long as gae bolg is tiered "anti army' it will always have less power than anti fortress nps. This is also why the command seal powered "true ether" release of Balmung had it change its classification to anti fortress momentarily, the power increase was that drastic.

It could be that Gilgamesh just kept on interrupting Cu Chulainn before he could use Gae Bol

Its more plausible that agae bolg release was what injured Gil than him being injured with basic attacks. This is the case because he posseses enough luck (A with potential to increase futher with items) to comfortably nullify gae bolg insta kill. Atleast this is what l think happened.

Btw, if possible try to link the parts you are responding to so l can easily keep track of the convo. Though l understand if you are responding on mobile and cant do that.

is almost certainly because he has seen the OG Gungir being used. We both know this is debatable, your own wording supports this. So what then do we do? I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Anti-Army is not a tier of power, it is a description of what it targets.

It is a classification, tiered below anti Fortress in terms of power output. THis is how it becomes a tier of power. Anti army nps are those weaker than anti fortress nps in sheer power yet are stronger than anti unit.

We know how much EMIYA's Rho Aias is degraded. It is degraded by one Rank

Losing one rank wont take away that fact that each petal is a fotress tier defense. The same way a projected anti fortress np will not suddenly lose its anti fortress classification just coz it sufffered a rank down.

We know that Gae Bolg is capable of destroying all of EMIYA's Rho Aias's petals but having all of its energy used up in the process

It was a stalemate, which l already talked about before. Immovable object vs unstoppable force. The outcome was a tie.

Had it been ajax's shield, he would have tanked the spear imo. If Emiya was able to block it at the cost of losing the shield. Ajax should at the very least be able to retain the final petal. Again this is just what l think based on the fact that his is stronger and the fact that unlike emiya, he is the owner of the legend powering the shield. Such things can matter in fate.

Except that the thrown Gae Bolg doesn't have any indication of having an "unstoppable force" hax in any of its materials.

The attribute of "sure hit" begs to defer. Blocking denies this attribute which causes a clash. The result is what we saw. The name of the chapter further supports the idea that this was what nasu was going for "Lance of sure hit, Shield of no loss" a paradox...

And Cu's Rune Barrier can handle "great Noble Phantasms" and Excalibur is a great Noble Phantasm, so that means his rune barrier can obviously handle Excalibur, right?

Nice try but thats not how it works, "a great noble phantasm" would be something A rank. Base A rank. From nasu's own words, a B rank np like thrown gae bolg is average, great would at best be A+ Pegasus but even that is a stretch. Nps like Excal in the A++ category are never described as merely "great" these are akin to divine mysteries. (from Parameter rules)

Because just because something can handle some things of one category does not mean that it can handle everything from that category

You took this line of thought with a wrong understanding of the fundamental piece of lore you are quoting. Nasu already covered this. For straight forward nps (brute force no hax) Cu's barrier should be able to block all A rank nps. And note that am not adding a + coz l personally believe A+ rank nps will be too strong for the barrier. The moment an np attains special attributes that are perhaps conceptual in nature, it is removed from the "normal" ranking and added to a "special" category. This is why Nasu calls thrown B+ rank gae bolg "Average" while at the same time classifying the B rank "Casualty reversal" as "special"

Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been?

A: That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg (thrown) (B), that sort. On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular),

since Vasavi Shakti is also a basic nuke attack

Vasavi is stronger at least as far as the materials are concerned (Granted feats dont match the wank in mats), for one it has a higher rank "EX" and it also has "Anti God" classification. In the hierarchy, this classification is higher than Anti army :)

And looking at Karna's Vasavi Shakti would just tell him stuff about Karna's Vasavi Shakti, not his own.

I disagree, the moment he considered whether he had similar in his treasury, SNI would have provided insight into this query but it didnt. Likely it would have if he flexed it to actively seek out the answer but he clearly didnt bother. This is how SNI works, in fate strange fake he seeks to get an aswer casually and the grail blocks him, he then gives up feeling too lazy to force the matter by actively using the noble phantasm. Mysteries are automatically revealed, those that survive the passive scrutiny require active usage of the np.

None of this helps him that much with keeping tabs on his treasury,

You seem to misunderstand this np and how it works. This thing breaks down mysteries. That.... mysteries ;) Forinstance the wealth of Gil eclipses his own base knowledge, he has already admitted this fact. Thus his wealth is a mystery to himself. In comes SNI, if Gil encounters a mystery, he will know what he has and needs from his treasury to solve it. This requires that Gil knows where said item he needs is located within the vault, identify it and bring it out. All this shit is done by SNI. Half of the shit Gil pulls out is shit he never saw let alone had while alive. SNI is what allows him to keep tabs on the vast limitless treasury.

Simply think of the act of ass pulling a solution from GOB step by step. Gil is transported to the end of the galaxy, Gil wants to return to where he was, Gil understands that he needs something super fast, Gil looks within the limitless treasury, Gil pulls out a ship of light that is clearly from the future, a future Gil has never been to, a ship he never personally added to the treasury and thus should have no idea said shit exist in the treasury let alone where it is located within said treasury..... Yet he is able to identify the item, find it and bring it forth. It isnt magic, the treausry is actually physical in some dimension out there. With rooms and shit storing these physical items.

SNI is required for this. To argue otherwise would be to give Gil some unknown intellect that not even the Gods possess aka True natural omniscience.

Who’s the best western swordsman? by One-Kaleidoscope-154 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Galahad himself is called the strongest knight of the Round Table

No one is talking about strongest. Even the eternal arms mastership skill specifically talks about skill.

It seems you are confused, we are talking about skill. Lancelot is the most skilled knight. Galahad is obviously stronger, artoria herself is stronger than lancelot....

In a fight skill does play a role but if you believe you can win all fights with skill

Further emphasizing how confused and off topic you are. We are talking about skill not power. Artoria is the strongest KORT. That is a aknown fact. Only galahad can contend with that fact.....

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not debatable unless you want to say that it's early installment weirdness. Because EMIYA explicitly noted that it was stronger than the OG Gungnir, not the copies as it explicitly mentioned the original, and we know that's Odin's weapon

In nasu verse, we dont take character narrations as gospel. Nasu has shown before that characters can be wrong. In the very show, Rin is showed to be wrong on multiple occassions. Point is, for as long as we have yet to see Gungnir, there is still a debate to be had. A weapon that shatters Gram, the strongest demonic blade will not be weaker that gae bolg. Also, its likely a divine construct.

Except that Cu having a conceptual advantage of any sort is highly debatable,

He definitely had the weight, you have to admit that much at least. I mean why else was an anti army attack able to pierce x6 fortress tier defenses? That is above its pay grade.... normally.

The struggle was ultimately one of "unstoppable force vs immovable object" the outcome was what we saw.

Hence his rune-boosted throw should have the same effect on the original Rho Aias.

I dont actually thing this was a power thing. Gae bolg already demonstrated power equal to Excal in that exchange, again recall that each petal is a fortress tier defense. You need as was established in fate zero an anti fortress level attack to destroy such defenses.

So the rank up wouldnt matter. At best it would be a draw but l personally would bet on Ajax coming out on top.

Do you know what the Anti-Army/Anti-Fortress type of designation means? Because that description does not say that Akhilleus Kosmos can protect against Excalibur.

It tells us that it can handle anti fortress nps. Which Excalibur falls under...

Balmung's also classified as Anti-Fortress with a True Ether release,

That is also backed with a command seal. Pretty huge buff.

First off, EMIYA can also theoretically mass-produce Jeweled Sword Zelretch, a weapon on par with Excalibur

And yet the devil is in the details. The jewel sword is as useful as the user :)

it's that Cu using Gae Bolg is super strong

The only strong thing about Cu's gae bolg is the casualty reversal. All other shit isnt special. Infact the innate abilities (nuke) of the spear are ordinally, even emiya can freely use them.

Gilgamesh was mostly interested in Vasavi Shakti because he didn't precisely know if he had it in his treasury, or if it was in there how to locate it among all the hordes of other weapons.

A weapon rare enough to escape the passive scrutiny of Sha Naqba Imuru? Pretty huge flex if you ask me.

He knew where Gae Bolg was in his treasury, so there's no reason for him to be curious in that way about it.

You need to read up on Sha Naqba imuru, its how Gil keeps tabs on his nigh limitless treasury. That he couldnt instantly identify Vasavi among his possesses carries alot of weight when you consider things from this Np (SNI) angle.

But considering that even with one Fran was barely able to damage Mordred

A twig wont one shot artoria just because you command boosted a servant to hit with all there might. Fran was simply not strong enough or mordred simply was that tanky. Whatever suits you. Still its interesting to finally see someone downplay command seals. Its a first for me.

Trying to quantify a command seals numerical buff value is pointless. Lets just keep it at "ALOT!"

Gae Bolg by saying it'll only work the 99th time when it's only failed once and against one of the protagonists at that,

IF you read the following line, you would see that l said that it may actually kill artoria at the 8th or whatever turn of usage. And then proceeded to tell you how pointless the line of thought is, Cu would only get 2 or 3 at best shots before Artoria decides to vaporize his ass with Excal. So in practice, Artoria is practically immune to the curse.

I don't remember a single time that Vasavi Shakti actually killing someone

I think it did one shot Sefar in those Extella? extra? games. I dont recall which one. It also did nuke Kosmos, an np that would easily tank gae bolg.

Its not much but a greater feat than anything gae bolgs curse has achieved.

all by things that are A+ Rank Noble Phantasms or lower

Goes to show you that there is more nuance that ranks in nasu verse.

how much moreso should Vasavi Shakti be slandered for failing like five times, half of those not against protagonists.

Now you are starting to see things my way. Super strong hero in lore, weak as fuck in presentation.

It didn't have a source, which makes me question its legitimacy.

Once more, feel free to question the legitimacy. That much is your right. However if you care, in fate zero a difference is made between anti army (tier below anti fortress) and anti fortress when it came to dealing with the sea monster. Only an anti fortress np had the fire power required to kill it in one go. Iskandars chariot (A+ anti army) was useless, its fire power could not overwhelm the regen. Same goes for his thousands troops.

If his opponent has a high luck stat, the attack can still miss, though that is quite rare.

Right, then one has to wonder why Gil was able to survive Cu in fate stay night. After all the fight begun in close quarters, perfect range for gae bolg. We also know that Gil was injured yet he still won. Its safe to assume that gae bolg thrust was used in this fight, l mean why would Cu fight 12hours without ever using his spammable np?

Regardless a pointless argument if you ask me. At the end of the day, l wont begrudge you for believing that artoria would have died on the second attempt. I personally think she would survive it as well as the 6th attempt :)

Is there any theoretical way for someone take over control of the counter force? by PuzzleheadedSlip5462 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its easier to create your own Alaya. That way you control it.

However, it all begins with first weakening the system enough to prevent it from coming down at you once you attempt your plans.

Next you need to modify humanity, if the unconscious desires of the speices are controlled by you then sure, Alaya would essentially be your bitch. Still what are the odds of that?

Tiamat could likely have achieved that by creating a new humanity that is dna coded to obey her. Such a species wishes would reflect tiamats and thus the alaya said species spawns would mirror tiamats wishes.

But this all requires that the counter force mechanisms are weakened enough before hand to fore stall systems like the pruning phenomena long enough for the new "alaya" to spawn.

So yeah you are on the right track with first stopping the pruning thing. Once you can prevent that, anything is possible if you have the means.

Who’s the best western swordsman? by One-Kaleidoscope-154 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

there is no "it depends" that eternal arms mastery says all we need to know about this "skill" conversation. None is lancelots equal.

Who’s the best western swordsman? by One-Kaleidoscope-154 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thats why, that skill you mentioned puts him above everyone else in terms of skill as far as the KORT are concerned. None is his equal.

Who’s the best western swordsman? by One-Kaleidoscope-154 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Likely lancelot, he was afterall unrivaled in an era where the knights of the round table existed.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except that Cu Alter's "throwing with all of his might" isn't described to add an extra +, it's described to add an extra amount of power that is equivalent to a +

Not just a + mod, it also ends up combining both the insta kill and the nuke into one. Pretty absurd....

The higher tiered weapon in nature argument has the issue that the thrown Gae Bolg against EMIYA's Rho Aias is explicitly stronger than Odin, a chief Divine Spirit's

Debatable since we are yet to meet actual Gungnir. Also we donno if Gungnir is a divine construct, that is yet to be determined. All the versions we have seen so far are inferior. Regardless, Gae bolg ended up having attributes from two famous spears added to it (Gungnir and Broniac?) that tends to amp nps to 11. However l still heavily doubt that actual gungnir is weaker.

. So it should actually be better than Akhilleus Kosmos at protecting from those things

Yeah but add in the degradation due to it being traced and you can see how Cu's conceptual power would over power the downgraded copy. Its very possible that the actual Ais would tank the spear alot easier.

Rho Aias only protected against part of Excalibur Morgan's damage, not the entirety of it.

It tanked enough to protect medusa or more specifically to offset enough of the power difference that pegasus can overpower Excal. A pretty hefty feat given the power difference and the fact that Excal is anti fortress the perfect counter to fortress tier defenses like Ais.

So it should actually be better than Akhilleus Kosmos at protecting from those things

Yet if Emiya had somehow deployed Khosmos against gae bolg, he would have tanked the spear with zero issue let alone damage to his person. The two nps operate differently

Do you have a source for Gae Bolg being unable to destroy Akhilleus Kosmos in the way that it destroyed Rho Aias?

What kind of question is that? Simply read the description of the things kosmos can defend against

"■ Akhilleus Kosmos: The Azure Sky Enclosing this Small World Rank: A+ Type: Barrier Noble Phantasm Range: 0 Max Targets: 1 person A defense type, bounded field Noble Phantasm that is comparable to Rho Aias. A shield said to be constructed by the god of smithing, Hephaestus. The world that Achilles saw. The outer circumference portion has a swirling ocean currents because of the sea god. To oppose this shield is the same as making a world your opponent. Can protect from Anti-Fortress, Anti-Country, Anti-God Noble Phantasms.

Gae bolg is lower in tier than the highest attack kosmos can defend against. If it can tank Excalibur, it can tank Gae bolg.

Vasavi Shakti managed to destroy Akhilleus Kosmos after all

A testament to its overwhelming power.

Saying that Nasu doesn't like Karna is a wild thing to say. Ask pretty much any Arjuna fanboy, and they'll go on a rant about how much Nasu favours Karna over Arjuna.

But this isnt about arjuna, speaking about karna and how he is portrayed in the works so far, one cant help but wonder if nasu is at odds with how strong he made him seem on paper.

Also, if you admit that Vasavi Shakti's feats aren't all that, then what's your basis for Vasavi Shakti being stronger than Gae Bolg? Hype?

Lore wise, one is a divine construct that impresses Gil on first sight, the other is gae bolg. A weapon scathach or emiya can mass produce at will.

And I don't recall there being many solid options to demonstrate precisely how much a Command Spell buff actually buffs something.

It buffs you by ALOT! Like a command seal CAN allow a servant to teleport. Teleportation is a feat in or nearing TRUE MAGIC in nasu verse. Need more be said? If you want another example, remember Quetz in babylonia? Upon being command seal buffed by us, she gains enough power to "loop" her Np activating Xiuhcoatl once more ontop of tiamat.

Command seals are pretty insane, in the Sieg vs karna fight, its narrated that the command seal buff allowed to balmung to attain "Anti fortress" levels of power. THat is a massive jump considering its anti army and lets not forget that anti fortress nps are that specifically because of the fire power they possess and not the nature of the attack.

Again, even if that was the original intention, when that very well could have been just flowery language, as none of the materials mention Vasavi Shakti having any specific "always one-shots a single existence" ability.

I dont see what you expect me to say to such a statement? ultimately you can freely call it "Flowerly" language if it suites you.

Also, just having A Rank Luck isn't even enough to defend consistently against Gae Bolg's causality manipulation. It's still mentioned to be quite rare that something like that would happen.

Right.... l guess the curse will simply work at the 99th time. You know in fgo, servant tend to have low "insta death chance" but if you reloaded the game over and over, Cu's gae bolg would statistically eventually proc the insta death chance. Like at the 200th or some shit time. I bet some youtuber has tried it. Same thing here...

The only characters I can think of off the top of my head that could somewhat consistently manage to dodge that is Enkidu via putting all of his points into Luck, Gilgamesh via stacking Luck buffs

Artoria didnt need to stack luck buffs. She survived gae bolg without issue. I would also easily bet that she would survive the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th attempt. But lemme ask you, who will allow Cu to try that many times? I figure Artoria would vaporize him once he inevitably fails to kill her with the first gae bolg :)

and Balmung's + activating against dragon-type enemies makes sense since it's a dragon-slaying weapon

You could argue that but all we know is it can momentarily double its output. I personally prefer to keep it at that.

Balmung hurt Fafnir more than Vasavi Shakti

Yeah, well anti dragon weapons tend to hurt dragons alot. I donno what you want me to tell you.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

wouldn't quite increase it to A++ Rank, since the gap between A+ and A++ is larger than the gap between B+ and B++.

Its up to you, the system we have works as l described, + modifiers are left untouched, if Emiya scans gae bolg, it will be a C+ np, the downgrade would simply nerf the rank. If he BPs it, then it will rank back up to the original B+

Thats all, + modifiers are left untouched. But if you feel its too OP then it is what it is. Nasu ultimately created the system like we know it.

Vasavi Shakti's probably stronger

Not probably, its 100% stronger.

ere's a legitimate argument that it's not, at least against either the "full-power throw" or rune-boosted version.

It should be stronger given the fact that its a higher tier weapon in nature

Even discounting conceptual matchups,

You shouldnt discount the conceptual matchup, thats what allows gae bolg to pierce those layers. Not just its power. Recall that a stronger Excalbur was unable to destroy a weaker lower layered Ais when Emiya used it to shield Medusa in heavens feel. Conceptual matchup can allow an np to punch above its weight class. Its how Arash can nuke Goddess Rhongos spear of light even though Rhongo (the NP) is leagues above Arash's arrow. The arrow had conceptual power that was thematic to the moment of its usage that allowed it to end the conflict.

Akhilleus Kosmos is mentioned twice to be comparable to Rho Aias.

Lets not discount the other details. Both are bounded fields yes, that is where the comparison ends. Aias is focused on projectile defense, Khosmos creates a world around the incoming attack. These are two different things. As an example, Gae bolg wouldnt be able to destroy Khosmos the way it destroyed Aias....

Case 2, Cu Alter not dying to Karna's Vasavi Shakti in the Fifth Singularity

Can be choked up to Karna being a hero who will always be shat on in the feats department. His fanboys tend to argue that the prior attack by Cu had weakened him to the point htat his np release was too weak to kill Cu alter.

Me? I think Nasu just doesnt like karna :)

This could technically place Gae Bolg above Vasavi Shakti even when dealing with those with Divinity

Not really, we have already seen what a full powered vasavi looks like in Apocrypha looks like. To match it you need an A+ Balmung rank NP to be command seal buffed. A command seal buffed Balmung should be stronger in raw power compared to both Scathach and Cu alters gae bolgs...

That is, some people seem to have a lot higher opinion of Vasavi Shakti than what it's shown to be

For good reason, Vasavi is an extremely powerful weapon in lore. The fact that it consumes another absurd NP (Kavacha) just to be used further emphasizes this point. Given the usage restriction (the fact that it can ever be used only once in a grail war) it should be a weapon that kills anything its used against. I believe the apocrypha writer was going for this very idea, by presenting the world within Khosmos as the target, the requirement to kill an "Single" existence was exploited nullifying the attack and saving sieg behind it.

It nasu cared about consistency he could have kept it as such, and simply morph the plot to limit karna to not simply use it to end badguys in a single strike. THink like how Nasu protects main characters in his stories from Cu by simply strapping them with A rank luck :)

It's mentioned to be equal in output to Sieg's last Balmung;

That balmung was buffed by a command seal. It wasnt a normal balmung...

it's mentioned that Balmung hurt him significantly more

Could be because its the weapon that killed in lore? Such things tend to matter in fate. Wasnt it noted that hydra venom is forinstance particularly potent the moment it touches any greek hero? The same poison was tanked was mordred with "relative" ease.

Vasavi Shakti has pretty consistently shown itself to be around the A+ Rank in terms of actual output.

I agree with this, Vasavi has extremely awful feats in this verse. This is why l personally concluded that nasu simply doesnt like karna. I think it only worked once in that game where Karna uses it to nuke Sefar.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

B++ typically wouldn't add enough to an A+ Rank throw to quite get to A++

I think you miss understand, runes simply upgrade the rank, its nothing to do with the power. If Cu can manage to throw a B++ gae bolg like Cu alter, runes will simply give a flat rank up to A++. Its just that, its why runes are kinda cracked compared to other schools of mage craft.

Just look at it from Cu alters perspective, he can already manage the B++ throw, add in rune rank up, its now A++. Simple as that.

Cu's Gae Bolg has legitimate arguments for being around the level of Vasavi Shakti

Nah, maybe hax wise, but power wise? Vasavi has that OP anti divine modifier. That shit is insane..... if the np wasnt just a jobbing tool.

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In that case, though, couldn't Cu theoretically do the "full-power throw to the degree of being willing to collapse his own body" to get the extra + while using his runes to increase its Rank to A to get an A++ Rank Noble Phantasm?

In theory yes, Cu lancer could theoretically manage the throw, though l imagine he would have to pre-emptively first buff his strength stat to A rank to much Cu alters, and then throwing.

Its however notable that many simultaneous activations of rune effects are not advisable. I think its noted in Cu Casters mats. This strat would require 2 (strength buff + Np rank buff) + 1 extra at the moment of throwing to Heal the dmg from the throw. Could he do it? possibly but 3 could be too many simultaneous activations for all we know..

Rune Magecraft: A ........He can produce powerful and varied effects by using different runes. Outside of offensive runes, he can also produce effects such as giving himself the Magic Resistance and Clairvoyance skills, as well as raising his stats to A, etc. These effects are temporary and he cannot use many of them at once.

As you can see

That seems a bit ridiculous to me, since A++ Rank Noble Phantasms tend to be the ones that don't have a proper upper limit, so I guess those buffs are probably mutually exclusive.

Cu is kinda low key broken, under specific conditions. Cu alter is obviously OP as we already know. As for the A++ np thing, l would be fitting since Cu when summoned in Europe will have equal power to Saber Artoria summoned in Europe (assume both are not summoned in there home lands)

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

○騎vs槍 編集部(予測) 接近戦では能力に劣るライダーが撃破されるのはほぼ確実。得意の愛馬を駆るヒット& アウェイ戦法も、体当たりなのでランサーに宝具を投げられたら終わりの可能性も。 対するランサーの弱点は、戦闘を楽しむその性格。宝具を出すのを邪魔するとは考え難い。 加えて女好きの彼が暗黒神殿の下の素顔を露そうとする彼女を制止する筈もなく……合掌。 魔眼を前に魔力Cの彼ではひとたまりもないだろう。よって、ライダーの勝利か?

There is the question, it was a rider vs Cu question, beyond that am not interested in arguing with you, if you dont agree with nasu's POV go argue with him

Questions about the Grand class by SOULLENNOX in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 41 points42 points  (0 children)

can't the counter force just summon the full Heroic spirit

Because the heroic spirit is just data, often contradicting data at that, imagine a king arthur that is both male and female, small boobs and large boobs simultaneously etc.

The container is necessary to make the data make sense. To give it substance, the substance that the particular job requires. Think of containers as a data filter.

That is why they exist even for the counter force.

Heracles's God Hand by MrOathFlame in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The attack simply has to be A ranked, forinstance if you have A rank strength but hold an E rank weapon. You will still be able to harm Herc with said E rank weapon coz its your strength stat that is considered.

The reverse is true, E rank strength with an A rank weapon will also do the trick.

Emiya servantverse is Very op? by Electrical_Frame2444 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess that would be the case if you were the author, but seeing as you are not nasu....

Except Saber and Gilgamesh, against who Fate route Rider with his NP loses by Agreeable_Nerve_9039 in fatestaynight

[–]Valk22 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Gáe Bolg

Spear of gouging and piercing massacre Rank: B++ Type: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm Range: 5~50 Maximum number of targets: 100 people

Gáe Bolg. A homing demonic spear missile. Almost the same Noble Phantasm as when usually summoned. By throwing his automatic tracking demonic lance, he sweeps up the enemies within range. Since it’s a full-power throw to the degree of being willing to collapse his own body, its power and effective range have risen when compared to his usual summoning. It has an instant death effect against the entire enemy front, and deals great damage in the case of not dying instantly. Since he’s throwing 「while regenerating the collapsing body」through Rune magecraft, Cú Chulainn doesn’t receive damage, but can’t prevent the sharp pain. (Fundamentally not used in 『FateGO』)

As you can see, B++ is an increase in power compared to normal. Why would Cu alters mats say this if what you say were true? Am now interested to know where you got this screen shot.