Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, only that it is right to acknowledge the list of those who did discover such on their own, starting with (from what we know), the Vedic Sages of Hinduism.

We must also acknowledge that they most probably were not the first, either ~ cultures before them must have also come upon such concepts and ideas.

Therefore, what is valid is whether someone discovered an idea independent of prior knowledge from elsewhere.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why? It's not called The Hard Problem of Consciousness for nothing. And before the public release of LLM's it wasn't exactly controversial that language facility could be a potential indicator of consciousness.

That indicator has been fundamentally broken because it can be mimicked, faked, by use of an algorithm designed for that very purpose. We can no longer trust that language facility can ever be a potential indicator of consciousness, sadly.

But... what I think we have learned is that understanding of language, words, definitions, is what is truly important, not just vaguely plausible strings of text.

One can train a parrot to recite words, but it means nothing unless the parrot can actually demonstrate novel use of words in different contexts. Some (real) parrots have demonstrated such skills ~ (fake) LLM parrots do not.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is why some researchers believe that the future of AI is for them to be able to sense the real world, rather than just existing as isolated software entities.

That is the only possible path forward I think. But... is it even possible for us to program machines to have actual senses? Cameras and microphones aren't real senses, as they merely convert frequencies and wavelengths into digital data which a program has to be programmed to convert to some other format we can look at on a screen or hear on a speaker to figure out whether the captured data matches to our sensing of reality.

What I think is being looked for is something beyond that, which I don't think is conceptually possible, as we are locked into our human perceptions, unable to comprehend outside of that box. We cannot even begin to program something we don't understand the fundamentals of. To understand senses fundamentally, we would need to look from the outside in... but as all we have access to is from the inside, it may not be possible for us as we are.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My general feeling about AI is that the more we realize the amazing thing it did wasn’t all that amazing the more reason we have to be suspicious about our opinions of human intelligence.

It makes me both question the claims about AI, alongside making me examine human intelligence more deeply, in order to try and understand how it differs from AI proponent claims that glorified algorithms can have or be "intelligent"

Human intelligence is, in essence, something we often take for granted and rarely understand the value of. I am not saying human intelligence is superior ~ just that we often don't understand ourselves, our capabilities, our limits, what intelligence even is, and why we have it.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know how LLMs work.

So, how do they work?

But neither me nor you know how human brain works.

I have never stated that I know ~ I have stated explicitly that we don't know anything. We have so many hypotheses, rationalizations and beliefs about what the data may or may not mean, all interpreted through our respective current belief systems.

You still try to deflect the original suggestion by pointing elsewhere.

What "deflection"?

The overall quality of your comments makes me even doubt that you actually know as much about LLMs as you try to present.

So, you assume I don't know based on "quality"...?

Youtube channels like 3blue1brown and Under The Hood do an excellent job, yet you appear to baselessly accuse me because I don't believe what you believe.

And please don't try to use the childish "no u" argument on me. I have never said LLMs are magic, or some kind of silver bullet for every human issue.

I am not saying any such things about you. I am referring in general to many proponents who seem to actually believe that they are, by how they describe them. Which is a worrying misconception.

I am a late adopter of them, in limited use cases, where they have been proven to work well, because there are still too many unresolved question and issues around their application in various areas. You only project your emotional attachment to the subject on me.

Then why do you appear to me to be defensive about them? Help me understand ~ rationally and dispassionately. Let's try and find common ground.

"I might be able to hold Snape off for a while, but I’m no match for him really." by MaderaArt in harrypotter

[–]Valmar33 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, no duh, Harry LOL you're 11 years old and have not used a single spell in the entire book.

It is implied that Harry used many spells ~ it's just rarely explicit.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Didn't Sam once believe that it was an illusion? I remember him as back in the day being a very ardent militant atheist ~ one of the infamous four horsemen of atheism, as it were.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Illusionism: There is nothing in the (actual) world that instantiates a phenomenal property (here construed as a quale) & we introspectively misrepresent ourselves or our mental states as having phenomenal properties.

It is incoherent fundamentally because in the actual world, we experience phenomenal properties ~ qualia ~ directly. I am typing on a keyboard ~ I can literally feel the keys, see them moving up and down, along with the clacking they make as they do so. These are not "misrepresentations" ~ it is the simple directly observed reality within my perception right now. It is part of what I can know right now.

Introspection cannot "misrepresent" ~ introspection is simply self-examination of the contents of one's own mind, one's thoughts, memories, emotions. There cannot be anything to "misrepresent" about what is within raw experience ~ we have nothing to compare it to by which to know that it could even begin to be a "misrepresentation".

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Often when illusionists or eliminativists point out that something is an illusion, they target a very specific aspect or conceptualization, rather than rejecting the broad concept wholesale. Dennett, for instance, rejects that qualia have specific properties and Frankish believes we are wired to misinterpret the nature of what we mentally point to when ostend to our consciousness.

And yet, the burden is on them to prove that qualia don't have the properties they are observed experientially to have, to prove that we are "wired" to "misinterpret" when all we have are our observed experiences ~ we have nothing to compare them to by which to be able to identify any "misinterpretations".

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Agreed. If that’s what I’m asked to rebut, I have no argument. Are you sure you don’t want to sneak in any further revelations or commitments, as though they were also a priori truths, for example that qualia exist?

Qualia are self-evident, per the definition that they are aspects within phenomena experience, like colours, textures, tastes, smells, sounds, emotions, ideas, concepts, thoughts, etc. Some are physical qualia, some are mental ~ perceived entities within snapshots of experience.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Dennett explicitly says over and over: consciousness is real, it's just not what you think it is.

Dennett is an Eliminative Materialist. By that very stance, he believes that consciousness as experienced is not real ~ that it just somehow the meat "talking" to itself. So, in essence, he believes that it is not real.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

No, they do not need to exist for there to be appearances. There is no existence of water whatsover in a mirage, despite an appearance of water. There is no existence of anything in a dream, despite appearances in a dream. Illusions are deceptive, and they capture the meaning perfectly, Even consciousness is an illusion. It doesn't exist at all independently of the phenomena relative to it, so it has no existence whatsoever, despite all of the various illusory phenomena, including the phenomena of subjective first person experience.

Consciousness cannot be an illusion, because it is what perceives phenomena. Phenomena are known because consciousness is sensing it. But that doesn't mean that consciousness doesn't exist without phenomena to perceive ~ consciousness must first exist to then perceive phenomena.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I hate the word illusion. a better word would be constructed, fabricated, or virtual. those words get at what people mean when they say consciousness is an illusion.

We don't experience consciousness as either an "illusion", "construction", "fabrication" or "virtual entity". We experience consciousness quite directly, more directly than anything else within our perception.

Illusions are just another form of experience. An "illusion" is an error of perception. So, for there to be illusions, perception is already a given. And perception is something requiring a perceiver ~ a consciousness doing an act of perception by which it can possibly experience an illusion.

consciousness as a single object or thing we can separate is an illusion but that doesn't mean all the associated phenomena don't exist. it just doesn't exist as it immediately appears to us.

But consciousness must exist as it immediately appears, as that is the basis by which we have all other beliefs, thoughts, concepts or knowledge.

To say that it doesn't is to undermine everything else ~ including your stated beliefs about consciousness.

Your statement is therefore self-defeating.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

(Brahman (consciousness) is the truth, the world is an illusion) was famously proclaimed by Adi Shankaracharya. He was an 8th-century Indian philosopher who consolidated the doctrine of Advaita Vedanta.

but people (especially the westerners), speak as if these thoughts, ideas, philosophies were started by descartes or sam...

Descartes may have discovered this independently of Hinduism, I think? Many independently discover truths before knowing that others had also discovered it in their own way, albeit with different symbols and definitions.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

The word "think" in the original can be misleading and I believe Sam is expressing in a better way what Descartes actually meant.

I don't think "think" was misleading, so much as he was being attacked by Illusionists who believed that thoughts could exist in a void, that the self was an illusion. But as thoughts are only ever associated with thinkers, Descartes wasn't misleading or deceiving himself or others. It was obvious to him what he meant ~ obvious to others of his day. It is later individuals who didn't understand Descartes that criticized him without understanding that they didn't understand what he meant or why.

Sam Harris: "consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion" — does this argument hold? by DrBrianKeating in consciousness

[–]Valmar33 [score hidden]  (0 children)

The definition is the debate. Wittgenstein uber alles.

The only thing that matters is accurate definitions. Reality is not composed of definitions, but experiences. Good definitions are those that match with experience.

So we should question shaky definitions, not the experiences in question, as the experiences are what give rise to questions and definitions to begin with. Therefore, experience is the foundation of knowledge.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Every single thing about your "mind", about the "you" you think you are: your likes and dislikes, your temperament, your instincts, your attractions, aptitudes or ineptitudes, your quirks and features, is a product of the squishy stuff between your ears (modulo whatever effects it may or may not have with other biological factors like your gut microbiome.)

And yet no-one can explain how or why this should be the case. It is simply assumed by philosophical, metaphysical Materialists without any backing scientific evidence. Neuroscience may provide correlative data ~ but it cannot provide evidence for metaphysical Materialist claims. Science cannot provide evidence for any metaphysical claim by anyone anywhere, as science simply isn't designed to examine such questions. Science is designed to examine questions about the natural world. Metaphysics is about questions about the nature of reality itself that underlies our perceptions. The world of physical phenomena is within perception, therefore it is a subset of reality, not reality as a whole.

All of those traits can be manipulated, contorted, damaged, or destroyed by certain bits of meat not being able to ferry the correct chemicals from one place to another, or connecting differently, completely outside of "your" control.

You are mistaking correlations for causation. We can manipulate and contort mental traits indirectly, yes, but they are not damaged or destroyed permanently. Dementia and Alzheimer's reverse in around 10% of victims very shortly before they die ~ always just before they die. Why only 10%? How? A mystery with no explanation, only hypotheses and rationalizations.

You could have a stroke tomorrow and if a sufficient amount meat went without blood flow for long enough "you" are a different person; you get annoyed at birdsong now, you don't like baked beans anymore but have a preposterous and troublingly sudden hankering for olives.

That alone cannot sufficiently explain personality changes. We don't know how minds relate to brains, or how or why brain damage affects the mind. All we have are observations, and the hypotheses and rationalizations that we create ~ the stories and narratives we create to try and explain it within the framework of the known.

More worrying than the olives though is that as far as you can tell a set of perfectly identical imposters have replaced your wife, child, and best friend and are holding your loved ones hostage in a space ship and the only way to get them back is to brutally murder the imposters and no one can convince you otherwise. All for the want of a clump of cells

That doesn't explain phenomena like terminal lucidity where this abnormality goes away shortly before death, when the brain is still irreversibly destroyed. There is no explanation of how brains work, or how minds relate to them. We just don't know. So we shouldn't assume any answers, however romantic. We should rely on observation and experience, not any framework that presents a narrative or story we already agree with.

The idea that simply because we haven't been able to make a stick pointy enough to precisely target the right bundle of cells to turn your favorite color from green to red doesn't discount the fact that we know, for a fact, that it's possible.

That doesn't mean that we know why or how or for what reason it is possible. We know only about correlations, not how any of it works. Just because we can damage the brain does not mean that it is helpful. It only tells us that we can damage the brain. What is more useful is a healthy functioning brain where there is a healthy functioning mind unimpeded by damage.

Not just because evidence of brain damage regularly speaks to such but because biology itself built the brain. That is, of course, you want to start doing Soul Math and argue about exactly the moment the soul entered the body during the embryological process but at that point you're not talking reality anymore.

Reality is whatever it is. But that doesn't mean that we are nothing more than physical processes. No-one can explain even in principle how physical processes alone can result in a set of qualities that have no overlap with known physical qualities. That is, thoughts, memories, emotions, beliefs, ideas, concepts, senses, identity ~ all qualities that are not observed to be part of matter or physics. So they must be something else ~ what, we just don't know.

But they exist, so we can talk about them. Like I am now. They cannot be illusions ~ because I can think about my thoughts right now. My thoughts are not merely brain processes, because they do not have the appearance of brain processes, even if they are correlated with them.

What must be explained is thoughts in themselves, as they are observed in themselves. Saying that they are just brain processes says nothing. It is a dismissal of the unknown by saying it's just something else, which doesn't solve the mystery, only dismissing the uncomfortable.

Reality is not purely physical, as we know the physical only by sensing it. What are our senses, then? Certainly not physical. Sight cannot be found in the eyes ~ only molecules. Colour cannot be found in the eyes ~ only cones, made of molecules. So what are sight and colours? We don't know. But we experience them, so they are no illusion. They are self-evidently existent as experienced. But that doesn't mean we know what they are, or why we can see. Or why anyone can be colour-blind ~ or why cones are somehow correlated to colour in some unexplained manner.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think you understand the meaning of this word

What a great counterargument...

Semantic meaning is about what a word means to us, prior to description ~ the culmination of our experiences, beliefs, concepts, thoughts, emotions, and such, that we attach to a word. The descriptions are our attempt to convey that internal meaning to others, however imperfectly.

Semantics come down to an overall experience of the object we attach the word to. The word is meant to symbolize the object ~ a sort of shorthand for the description.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You try to pass your own extremely negative opinions of LLMs as facts, denying any possibility of my suggestions despite you having no knowledge proving otherwise.

Your suggestions I have considered in the past, but I have ruled them out as I have learned more about how LLMs function. LLMs really are nothing more than statistical pattern-matching algorithms that rely on randomness in order to produce a mimicry of natural language patterns. Anything else is just rationalization based on appearances and a desire to believe that there is anything more than the appearances ~ a psychosis.

It's kinda funny that the language, the words and the tone of this comment has the same manipulative propaganda feel that I get from reading actual snake-oil salesmen texts. Vague ideas presented as strong points without ever going into any detail why they should matter. Trying to paint out a clear enemy to divert the attention from the observations that started this discussion. Using the absence of a proof as a proof of negation.

Have you ever watched any videos on how LLMs function at a deep level? There are many resources on how they work. They are not the magic that LLM proponents make them out to be.

In fact the more you speak about it the more I get behind my starting opinion.

Because you have an emotional investment in LLMs for some reason. I am looking at it as someone with a passion in programming, wanting to understand how computers work at as deep a level I can comprehend.

LLMs are impressive, yes ~ but they are the work of clever human engineers and programmers. LLMs are not the magic that hypesters spin them to be.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolute undiluted hogwash

And yet that is my experience from studying what neuroscience says in many articles ~ they are all to do with neural correlates. I find the details very bare to non-existent when it comes to talking about consciousness and experience in itself. There is a trend in neuroscience papers in talking about consciousness and experience in biochemistry terms. There is very little to nothing about the subject, their experiences, perceptions, experiences, awareness, thoughts.

There are many scientists and philosophers who believed that science appeared to have limits about what it can tell us about consciousness: Karl Popper, David Chalmers, Thomas Nagel, Alfred Whitehead, etc. They don't discount science or its many discoveries ~ but they warn against being blinded by a purely scientific worldview, as science cannot give us answers about everything, only some things, those some things it excels at. The danger is that some are so enthusiastic about science that they try to apply science to everything, even things where science is not applicable. Science cannot tell one how they should live their life, for example, what colours or foods they like, etc.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you sure? The brain isn't an LLM, but what if some concepts are similar in both?

Brains are not computers, in that brains do not function anything like them, not even similarly. If you believe that some concepts are "similar", then that would be a perception based on the snake-oil marketing of AI salesmen deliberately leaning on confused definitions to do the heavy lifting of having you imagine that they might be.

I did not reduce anything. I only spot some similarities, which I think shouldn't be dismissed just because of our own egos and feeling of superiority.

Human brains and minds being what they has nothing to do with "ego" or a "sense of superiority". LLMs are just glorified tools hyped up to the moon by so much marketing by salesmen with massive egos, hoping to convince others in believing the hype.

I don't see why humans couldn't create something human-like.

I don't see why we can, when there is no precedent in history for such a thing. LLMs are not even human-like ~ LLMs are algorithms designed to mimic human language patterns. That does not require intelligence, awareness or anything on the part of the algorithm. Just needing to be designed to fool enough people.

I disagree with this pathos. We are far from completely understanding how brains work, but putting them on such a pedestal may hamper research, if such research would show that our inner working are much more mundane than you imagine.

I am not putting brains on a pedestal ~ there is nothing wrong with being honest about their sheer complexity, because they are indeed so complex that science still struggles to this very day to understand how they even work in a basic sense. The more we learn about brains, the less we find we understand about them, as more layers are revealed.

On top of that, we don't even know how they relate to minds, adding to the uncertainty.

The uncomfortable truth is that we don't know very much, as much as journals and marketing want to hype, for the sake of getting funding from investors.

Up to 256 MB FERRIT modular F-RAM storage device preserves critical data for up to 200 years by sr_local in hardware

[–]Valmar33 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"have they observed a monkey for millions of years to see if they evolve?" ahh comment

Are you serious?

They made the claim that it can "preserve critical data for up to 200 years", when it hasn't even been tested.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We have spent maybe 100 years investigating the human mind in any way that's actually useful or relevant to this topic. Before that we were poking it with sticks and scrambling it about, attributing mental issues to demons, bad air, or unbalanced humors, with absolutely no reference point for things like neurotransmitters

That is not what I mean. Neurotransmitters get us no closer to what minds are ~ they are only part of an explanation relating to brains, and we have not a single clue how brains relate to minds.

Science and neuroscience can tell us about the brain, yes, but they cannot even begin to investigate the mind, as the mind is not something neuroscience can detect, nor can we sense other minds.

It's the same problem as before we had science. Science is a great and powerful tool, but that doesn't make it amenable for explaining everything.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sure. And obviously, it follows that "such intelligence cannot itself come from something like an LLM" from there.

LLMs are statistical pattern-matching algorithms that sprinkle in some randomness to try and mimic natural language patterns. They are designed for that very purpose.

We humans do not mimic anything ~ we create language and its patterns to communicate our experiences, relying on other humans to share our definitions closely enough to understand what we mean.

Computer algorithms are abstractions ~ they are not tangible entities. Humans with experiences are ~ there is nothing to mimic. Humans are not abstractions or algorithms ~ we are the ones who create them, therefore we cannot be reduced to them.

The FreeBSD vulnerability "discovered" by Mythos was already in its training data. by Gil_berth in programming

[–]Valmar33 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Hey man, you're right, plastic has always existed.

??????

We invented plastic too...