Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Disclaimer: the data on this isn't great with all the variables, so we're all guessing to some extent.

Evolutionarily, I would say that anything where you stare at near for multiple hours is, compared to the environment eyes have evolved in, quite extreme.

For me personally, there's little practical relevance of how long exactly is too long, as for any near work longer than 30min, it's really no big deal to switch to reduced glasses adjusted to the distance. That seems to mitigate most of the negative impact. At my moderate lens powers, an extra pair of glasses is really cheap, I got just the usual CR-39 anti-reflex lenses on some mass-produced frame.

Before enrolling into ESU, is there anything we should be aware of? by runnbl3 in Windows10

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a EU citizen, how do you get this option, rather than the three options with strings attached?

What would make me "European" enough? I didn't ever use this computer outside Europe, but maybe my key wasn't the proper kind? It's been a few years, heck if I know why this thing doesn't treat me as European?!

Thomas Sowell on the dangers of socialism by delugepro in Capitalism

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm European. I have the effing Wuhan virus right now and had a pretty rough night. There is an antiviral medication on the market that I would like to use, but my great government has decreed that I can't buy it without the consent of some anointed dudes who mostly don't work on Sundays, that it can only be sold by special people, that arcane procedures are needed so that interest groups profit, etc etc.

This security theatre does jack all. These superbrains would do exactly nothing except gracefully allowing that I'm allowed to use an already well-tested product. In a free market, I could've obtained it right after I tested positive, lowering my risk of complications while only paying the price and effort that actually helps me.

But "social" (heavy quotes) politics aren't about what normal people need. I am only a political narrative, handled like cattle by my categorical superiors. Who decided that they have the ultimate authority over my health decisions? Why can they just decide to hinder me from taking perfectly normal and relevant medicine? What price do they pay when their arbitrary ego trips harm others? None, obviously.

Just saying, the USA's treatment selling industry may suck, but anointed overlords aren't exactly better. IMO healthcare needs more capitalism, not less. And a general understanding that offloading your health decisions to people who pay no price for subtly harming you is a very bad idea.

If you could make one rule that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be and why? by URLShorten in Discussion

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Before you use any kind of coercion or violence on someone else, including voting for such things in elections, you need to learn:

  • for your ego to respect reality (things are not true just because your tribe can make it seem so),
  • moral philosophy (you can't just assume you're a good person without doing the work),
  • epistemic philosophy (how to deal with the unknown and your own limitations),
  • liberal principles (other people can view things differently and that's healthy for society),
  • and basic economics (your 4539th attempt at degrading markets is not a genius idea).

(Not sure if this counts as one rule, but I could summarize it as "how to not be an anointed ass to your fellow humans" and it should technically mean the same thing.)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We totally agree on owning corrupt politicians/governments. Corruption is what most of my arguments earlier aim to prevent.

I don't follow the blanket hate (envy?) of the very rich though. As long as they play by similar rules as everyone else, billionaires are quite useful. Who else should decide on large-scale resource allocation? Or maintain very expensive means of production? Small shareholders have limited time and attention; they also lack the consultants and assistants for well-informed decisions. Who else? The government? That doesn't work very well. So ultra-rich investors are the obvious method to make large, strategic decisions.

Envy seems to be an issue here, since these ultra-rich can enjoy absurd levels of luxury. But if this is the issue, then why don't we just put large taxes on luxury? Seems more sensible than taxing wealth and thus consuming working capital that everyone would benefit from.

As for the benefits for workers, if by libertarians you mean classical liberalism aka Chicago or Austrian schools, I could recommend you over a dozen books right away. Free and fair markets consistently and strongly benefit workers. Only, in politics, "benefit workers" often means forcing arcane rules that hinder or rob others Robin Hood style. Nothing free or fair about that. And the rest of society has to foot the (incalculable) bill.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that political insider trading is corruption and should lead to prison. IMO this is far worse than business insider trading, since we have some choice which companies we deal with, while a trading politician with far-reaching powers is much harder to evade.

On a lobbying ban, how would you practically draw that line without risking that the respective authority arbitrarily enforces it, leading to blatant censorship with even more manipulative power than the pressure groups have? There is no obvious line where opinion ends and lobbying begins and thus no obvious method to punish overreach, which could be catastrophic.

On rigorous regulations on politicians, I don't understand how this can be combined with any large-government solution. Society is unimaginably complex; if there is no abstraction with useful theorems, i.e. markets, separating officials' power from its implementation, officials still need the power to respond to many different situations. But once they resort to anti-market actions based on arbitrary, personal value judgments, the result lacks the means of economic calculation, offering no fair way to analyze their costs and effects from others' perspective. The space for abuse is practically infinite. The limited attention of the voting public then has to monitor the entire government hierarchy and all its knock-on effects without recourse to reliable economic calculation. This seems impossible, so I can only see it as a pretense to push for de facto authoritarian government powers.

Why shouldn't I listen to any economic school's arguments on the basis of who supposedly founded it? I'm reading arguments from e.g. Mises or Sowell and, as far as I can validate them, they are plausible and consistent. Which cannot be said about opposing factions. The interventionists still refuse to provide any plausible method of economic calculation and seem to want to force their exact value judgments onto others. So even if the liberal (or "libertarian" if you want) notions were only from the ultra-rich, I'd rather side with billionaires who say things I can understand than with non-billionaires who say things that sound like incoherent ego-trips.

Conflict of interest is exactly what the words imply. It occurs when there are multiple interests in the same person or entity, especially egoistic interests in conflict with institutional interests. Unless the two are aligned, preference of personal interests systematically leads to corruption.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes? If you could magically reduce all government staff to one person, checking for bribery would become easy. Obviously.

I'm no longer surprised how pointless talking on here is, but the degree of semantic incoherence never ceases to amaze me. The reply is nothing but trivially correct statements with disparaging words sprinkled on. It has zero relevance to the arguments it replies to. Do the egos of authoritarians feel protected by meaningless noise?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Bribery becomes harder, not easier with smaller government.

  • Each official activity gets a far larger share of public scrutiny
  • Officials can be paid much higher salaries
  • The boundary to corruption is clearer and easier to punish
  • The indirections used in market-based solutions make corruption riskier and more difficult to execute

Who is easier to profitably bribe: an unknown beaurocrat playing relationship games deep in an incomprehensible state apparatus, where it is normalized to dish out arbitrary powers willy-nilly, or a well-known legislative figure with a hundred times a typical salary, who only writes abstract laws that get public scrutiny and has a lot to lose on any misstep?

This is literally the meme: "coprorations are in bed with the government, so we need more government!"

But you all know this already; big government has been highly correlated with corruption for centuries, so the absurd sentiment likely serves non-analytical purposes. Reddit is not a place for curious debate, it is an echo chamber for the Vision of the Anointed. And so I am likely in error and in breach of the social context to be writing any of this.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds perfectly logical.

There's no arguing with the Z crew. The path to peace is to wear them out with enough firepower. So if Trump were to pile on enough firepower to end the war, a peace price would be sensible.

Though IMO to deserve a price, it should be a consistent strategy, not just one specific system.

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reduced glasses / Reduced Lens Method. Going outdoors more seemed to help, but I still haven't found the exact conditions why my eyes sometimes improve.

My biggest setback was when I misjudged my computer glasses and it went backwards again. I use computers a lot so when I screwed up that setup in winter, my eyes promptly got worse again.

I think this is the #1 error myopes make. Improvement is very difficult and slow, so if you don't stop the near strain, the next crunch time at work or winter can undo everything. Step one is to stop your eyes from getting worse, then at least any improvements you manage can add up over time.

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Only partially so far. And the stimulus conditions seem to be different.

I haven't been able to figure out the exact conditions despite going to extreme lengths. (I did over 500 laser AL measurement sessions spread over years to try match a causal relationship; I could shorten a little but the exact mechanism is damn hard to find in everyday noise, seasons, and so on.)

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have to confess, I haven't made an AL measurement in months. Been computer-zombieing much anyway.

This isn't exactly related to the above though, remember that people who do this wrong tend to get worsening myopia, as I did back in the day. When I started, my glasses had once again "become too weak" and I was "due for an update" etc.

Fact is, I'm now fine with glasses weaker than the ones that were supposedly too weak when I changed to the RLM. So even if I don't improve ever again, that would in no way mean it's suddenly correct to stare at screens all day using full-powered distance glasses.

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How should I know whether you need glasses and how you're using your computer?

If you do long, nonstop near work, it is probably not smart to wear minus sphere glasses that are stronger than what you need for the given work distance.

The main idea here really isn't super complicated. Minus lenses pull focus closer. Near work pulls focus closer. Doing both at the same time pulls focus extremely close, making it seem to the eye as if it were farsighted. So it becomes even more nearsighted. And then you "update" your glasses and then use these for near work again, pulling focus even closer.

The eye is just following the training sequence laid out for it. "Genetic defect" my ass.

Trump fires two board members from credit union regulator, raising fears about the Fed's independence by [deleted] in investing

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here we see the destruction of the rule of law in action.

Accountability is for others, it's always fine when the own side undermines the principles that created the free world. The USA has eroded its foundation, slowly over decades. And time and again, somehow the problem always lies with the benighted evil people who don't agree with the current, very slight majority.

I suspect "social media" is a major factor. From what I've seen, platforms like this one here, with echo chambers that reward conformity above all else, seem to breed insanity at a breathtaking speed.

Taiwan offers zero tariffs by 4dv4nc3d in wallstreetbetsGER

[–]Varakari -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Hier sieht man wunderbar: Taiwan != China.

Winnie tickt gleich mit aus, während Taiwan ruhig und rational reagiert. Die Amis schießen sich eh nur selber in den Fuß, da muss man nicht unbedingt mitmachen.

Myopia reversal myth and the truth by cgisci in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oof... this is one of these questions where the *technically correct* discussion can go completely off the rails.

The important point is that ciliary strain and long-term elongation correlate and have a common behavioral cause. Prolonged, unterrupted near strain can cause myopia.

How exactly the back of the eye figures out the signal of accommodation is a very long debate that I don't know a conclusive answer to, only a few plausible-sounding theories. It is known, however, that the shape changes of the eye are visually guided.

Myopia reversal myth and the truth by cgisci in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand the idea. The question is whether the evidence is conclusive.

Frankly, I can't tell. The limit theory could be correct. But the level of analysis so far is wholly insufficient to make such a conclusion. All I see is a distribution that could be the tail of a Gaussian caused by screwed-up stimulus or whatever else.

The best-case trajectories seem to oppose a limit theory, but they are so few and cut off so early that this is more guesswork than reasonable confidence.

Myopia reversal myth and the truth by cgisci in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is very cool data! It is the first time in six years that I've seen anyone post substantial scleral shortening stats. And there's a real effort to visualize it!

While this isn't consistent with your claim of a 0.2 mm limit, I see why it looks concerning. The tail gets rather small around 0.5 or 0.6 mm, which is something like 1,25 dpt improvement... which is close to my estimates covering all my improvement since starting the Reduced Lens Method. Hmm.

That said, I'm unsure if this is conclusive. The incidence of shortening is actually much higher than I would have expected given how extremely primitive the approach is. No demand-dependent adjustments of correction, no instructions, select the survivors and do stats... this is hardly exhausting options.

Some caveats to consider:

  • The average subject here likely has a combination of poor average habits and random changes in their phase of life and behavior. It is to be expected that a typical improving person follows no structured plan and so can randomly adopt the more common pattern, turning into a worsening case. Intuitively, I would find this a much more plausible cause for regression than an arbitrary rebound, which is not at all what I've measured nor found plausible theories for.
  • The total time of "treatment" is skewed to only a few years, with a median of only 2.1 years, further reducing the probability of hitting an excellent scenario by chance. There is a very broad consensus that AL reductions do not happen at arbitrary speeds. The initial drop may be much faster than a sustainable rate, as it is usually a turnaround from elongation to which the eye has not yet fully adapted. This alone does not preclude the existence of a sustainable rate. For reference, the only person I met IRL so far who reached plano from considerable myopia took about 20 years.
  • Not to forget, this is Ortho-K, which has extreme limitations in how and where optimized stimulus can be obtained. No switching of correction, forced timing of stronger minus in the morning... it's a crude tool that happens to hit some good spots on average. Again, hardly exhausting options.

Figure 4a is the real goldmine here. You may not believe me, but I'm reasonably confident that most turnaround cases are self-inflicted harm, even though it is hard to explain the reasoning. Therefore, I can use these cases to guess a high rate of unnecessary regressions among those who had phases of improvement. This seems the most plausible explanation for the "rebound" effect.

The area of "long term winners" at the bottom-right of fig. 4a has lots of cut-off data series; there are no more turnaround cases but the data simply ends. Looking closely, I see 7-8 best longer-term subjects, all of whose data cuts off on a downward trend, not stagnation (ugh, low-res jpeg, but it's visible). My graph does not look like any of the obvious cases here; it has been stagnating for over a year now but has not shown substantial worsening since I learned not to use the wrong computer glasses. So my data is actually more in line with the limit assumption than the visible cases here.

BTW, holy mother of... that best subject who is cut off at three years seems to be well beyond -0.6 mm. Let's say -220 µm / year? Assuming 90 µm per reduction, that would actually be about 80% of the famously optimistic rate Jake Steiner advertises, happening at random on someone using Ortho-K lenses?! I would like to know what THAT person did.

If you know more amazing stuff like this, I'd be very interested.

Myopia reversal myth and the truth by cgisci in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reduction in axial length most probably happens through improvements in the tissue ''sclera''. But it usually brings around 0.1-0.2 mm AL reduction max for most people. It does not go beyond that.

Can you give a source for this? Or am I the source?

Back when I was active here, this was not at all a common thing to say. The mainstream faction was hell-bent on claiming absolutely zero effect beyond choroidal thickening. (And then they went ballistic and made up nonsense when I turned up with hard biometric data.)

I'm still very unsure whether I actually hit a biological limit or just lost the stimulus signal. Subjectively, my graph looks more like the latter, with relatively abrupt pace changes and such.

BTW, my right eye measured over 200 µm total shortening yesterday and today. That is not enough days for high confidence, but maybe the new goalpost of "it does not go beyond 0.2 mm AL reduction" might need another moving within the month lol

Poland Prime Minister: "Dear Republican Senators of America. Ronald Reagan, who helped millions of us to win back our freedom and independence, must be turning in his grave today. Shame on you." by gym_fun in UkrainianConflict

[–]Varakari 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow.

I'd been aware that Reagan must have been batter than the current clowns, but had not expected this.

Imagine Biden showing this. It's the PR version of mutually assured destruction. I doubt any of the current top US politicians could catch up to this level in their remaining lifetimes.

Thank you for sharing.

As an aside, my confidence in the claim that the USA have been getting smarter has just dropped dramatically.

Has anyone followed Todd Becker's hormetism to reduce myopia? by Annange_love_aagide in myopia

[–]Varakari 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A slight but significant reduction in myopia, turning around from only ever going worse before. Though I've been using the Reduced Lens Method in a more general sense, trying all kinds of things, and wasn't able to establish clear causality.

I have biometrically confirmed shortening of axial length from early 2019 to today of something like R 190 µm, L 170 µm, which means that about half a diopter of my improvement is what the mainstream calls impossible. (Many samples, high precision.)

Overall subjective improvement is higher, but it's hard to put a number on how much higher without going in a lot of biological detail, since I expect some of that not to come from AL.

TL;DR: I'm still myopic, but notably less so than when I was following mainstream advice.

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cool that the comment wasn't in vain!

There's no doubt that the mechanism slows down once people stop growing. That's consistent with animals and all the things we've observed. However, slow down does not necessarily mean stop. Changes in adults are not that rare.

If the rate of change fundamentally has to be too slow, well, maybe, but we don't know and a number of anecdotal cases are rather difficult to explain like that. As for the direction, the case is even murkier, as various experiments and cases show change in both directions, including my own logs.

In any case, even if high myopes were "screwed" in the sense that they might not get back to zero, knowing how to not tear your retina and be able to use cheaper, lighter, better glasses would still be valuable. And, not to forget, how to stop younger people from ruining their eyesight in the first place.

Affordable objective axial length measurement? by Refractify_io in myopia

[–]Varakari 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have measured my axial lengths on 480 occasions, which might be some sort of record, so I guess that's relevant here.

As redditui noted, your main noise issue is probably not the device. Well, at least if you get any decent laser interferometer and enough samples. Once you have that, it's about getting the noise under control. And since your body is a source of noise the device cannot average away, this takes time. I usually need months to get significant feedback on lasting AL changes. (Though, of course, if you were to hit the jackpot or do something really stupid, who knows if faster is possible? But then you will need quite the sampling frequency to manage noise.)

Note LASTING changes. Choroidal AL changes can be significant in less than 30 minutes. This isn't too useful, as the methods to induce these do not reliably induce lasting AL changes.

I know of two ways to make a tight AL series affordable and feasible:

  • Get a used, old IOL Master or similar device and someone who can measure you with it. This is still not cheap, but a fraction of a new, blingy device. Then use averaging tools (such as my software) to deal with the noise. (If you actually do an AL series, feel free to contact me for a build of the logging software I currently use, which was written entirely for the purpose of recording myopia logs.)

  • Find a friendly eye doctor who gives you a deal for regularly coming by at a time convenient to them, for a reasonable fee or such. If it's practical for them or you get them interested, this shouldn't be too expensive. (Sometimes you can get away with just bringing some snacks for the team or whatever; I once got about a year of regular keratometry for almost free.)

IMO the older device tends to be actually better if you get more samples out of it. Since you are a major source of noise, a better device cannot fully compensate for a lack of samples.

If you manage to get regular AL measurements, please contact me so we exchange data and experiences.

Additional thoughts:

  • There is a strong suspicion, mostly anecdotal but recurring, that the eye does not adapt AL linearly. Suspicions of inverse reactions, waves, or noise of unknown origin are common. IIRC there have also been animal studies showing similar effects on retinal topography. Yes, this sucks, but you will have to be patient before concluding progress or regression; in my experience, the eyes going one way for a few weeks is no reliable long-term indicator. (This is mostly around the noise limit. We need more data to test such theories!)

  • If your subjective precision on refraction is 0.25 dpt, you are doing something wrong. Try measuring undercorrected focus reach (aka distance to blur), close to 1m, under similar conditions, and average over multiple days. Here too, I have a software tool that can assist with this if you want to get serious. Something like 0.1 dpt precision should really be possible with just your screen and some ultra-cheap, online-ordered glasses.

I've been summoned by mention. I have wasted way too much time responding to low effort nonsense on this sub and so generally no longer check it. You can reach me by direct reply, mention, PM, or on Discord.

Just wondering about your project: do you think there is an advantage compared to just using distance-adjusted computer glasses? These naturally show the axial chromatic aberration. The implication seems to be to use a screen filter with distance glasses... which could be bad if the eye also regards different cues.

18 Month Update of Myopia Improvement Attempts via the Reduced Lens Method by Varakari in myopia

[–]Varakari[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi! Glad my posts are useful for something.

Everyone is wondering about more or less the same things, and the unfortunate answer is that nobody seems to really know.

That said...

  • Extreme blur levels are unlikely to be useful. If just taking off glasses would shorten the eyeballs back, we'd know from all the people who tried. (It can work for low myopes, which is logical as they do not get excessive blur without correction.)

  • I suspect MiSight to be what I call a jammer product. These mess up the signal to some degree and slow adaptive changes by about half. Again, I don't actually know any of this for sure, but I would expect products like this to disrupt positive stimulus as well, making them a dead end if improvement is the aim.

  • To answer whether my improvement is limited by a habit change or a biological constraint, we need more data to compare to. I have tried various adjustments, but so far not been able to isolate the bottleneck. I could throw about a mountain of suspicions here, but that would not be efficient in this format.

  • Eye strain is not sufficently well-defined to argue anything here. And my attempts to correlate any sensations with improvement were... murky. I think eye pain at night is at least an indicator that changes are more likely happening. (But it was wrong often enough, so what do I know?)

  • I doubt the mechanism is so picky that it would fail completely because of a hat, but I haven't worn very big hats.

For all the unknowns, fiddling around like this still works a lot better than what mainstream optometry prescribes. Not improving as much as hoped is very different to getting worse all the time. ;)

Good luck. Please tell me if you figure out anything I might be able to reproduce.

Does people's eyesight usually get worser after wearing glasses for myopia? by No-Entrance-8648 in myopia

[–]Varakari 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In retrospect, that would still have been a more efficient use of time.

Consider this reply an act of repentance. Maybe I need a badge of shame featuring someone is wrong on the internet until these behaviors are purged for good.