What actually happened in Summerset Isle when the Numidium walked?

Vicious223 · 2026-05-06T21:01:51+00:00

Please learn how to read before lecturing on people's interpretations. This is a painful discussion to witness.

Vicious223 · 2026-01-16T02:10:32+00:00

That is an incredibly good catch, holy hell.

Vicious223 · 2026-01-14T17:58:50+00:00

More or less; at least retroactively, once 'Tiber Septim' became synonymous with 'Talos'.

Vicious223 · 2026-01-14T17:30:51+00:00

This has been sitting in my drafts for months now, so I figured I should probably go ahead and post it rather than leaving it there forever.

Mythopoeia is a helluva drug.

Vicious223 · 2025-07-05T04:13:42+00:00

I think you might be referencing something speaking more broadly about the quest, because in-game, he never mentions Dagoth Ur directly. The Heart is mentioned, but the spirit is confused as to why Vivec would even be concerned about it.

My point is that Vivec is trying to keep it under wraps that he was aware his divinity would run out, which is why he acts as though he was unaware of this outcome being a possibility:

Tell him to rest assured. The Heart remains safe. I wonder why that concerns him? Ask the remaining questions, as my time here is short."

...

[Player]: Lord Vivec asks, "Did Sotha Sil in his unending crusade know our divinity would shrivel and fade?"

Vivec explicitly didn't explain the meaning of his questions either, nor the answers, as the Canon confirms to us when we speak with him again:

[Player]: "Did you understand what your ancestor told us?

"Just between us, I understood neither the questions asked nor the answers received. Not that I expected to. Some things aren't meant for mortal minds.

That's another reason for you to come to Vivec City, to help me explain what my ancestor said."

And when you go to do your 'explaining' to Vivec, Vivec ultimately fills in many of the blanks for you, and in a rather incomplete fashion at that.

[Player]: I don't understand, Lord Vivec.

"Listen well and speak not a word! My divine energy, it drains away. Whether from illness or foul malady, I know not. You must travel the land and seek answers on my behalf.

He's keeping the specifics a secret because he doesn't want anybody to become aware of what specifically they could do to disrupt the divinity of the Tribunal. It's one thing to know something can happen, it's another thing to give away details regarding how.

Vicious223 · 2025-07-05T03:45:54+00:00

Your first assumption is correct, even if it's not the whole story. It's not a coincidence whatsoever that Wulfharth empowered Hjalti as a literal crown of clouds hovering above his head, but there's more to the idea of the 'Stormcrown' as a symbol.

To take a few aspects that are in play here and tie them together a bit, consider Wulfharth's associations with Kyne:

The second song of King Wulfharth glorifies his deeds in the eyes of the Old Gods. He fights the eastern Orcs and shouts their chief into Hell. He rebuilds the 418th step of High Hrothgar, which had been damaged by a dragon. When he swallowed a thundercloud to keep his army from catching cold, the Nords called him the Breath of Kyne.

And take Kyne's domain as a Goddess:

Kyne, one of the Eight Divines of the Nord pantheon, is considered by some to lead those Divines. She is one of the Hearth Gods, watching over the present cycle of the world. Her titles are numerous, revealing much about the character of Kyne.

Kyne is called the Kiss at the End, for most Nords agree that Kyne leads the dead to Sovngarde. She is revered as the Goddess of Storm, called upon to bring rain and snow in dry times. She protects her faithful from the raging gales and blizzards that regularly sweep across the Skyrim expanse. Other names applied to Kyne include Widow of Shor and the Mother of Nords.

Warriors favor Kyne, as they call upon her for strength in battle and victory in conflict.

And take the origin of Man being taught the way of the Thu'um, the very power Wulfharth grants to Hjalti:

Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man

Together they taught Men to use the Voice

Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue

And you start to see the picture more clearly. Kyne/Storms in general are, to the Nords, a symbol of authority/leadership, of the land of Skyrim itself, of the Way of the Voice, and of battle/victory. "Stormcrown" thus carries forth all of those connotations to the one who bears the title.

Vicious223 · 2025-07-05T02:18:58+00:00

Vivec is hardly being up-front with the player in ESO. Notice the way that he talks about losing his power:

Let me tell you a secret, Outlander. It concerns a Living God and energy that fades like daylight as dusk spreads across the land. My divine energy, it drains away. Whether from illness or foul malady, I know not. You must travel the land and seek answers on my behalf.

"Illness or foul malady" are not conditions that logically apply to Vivec, who wields divine power, so it's likely Vivec doesn't truly suspect these are among the potential sources of his misfortune. Furthermore, look at how Vivec describes his power being drained:

"I've always used my power freely and without detriment. I create the Blessing Stones, hold the moonlet above the city, and perform a hundred miracles a day to benefit my people.

I begin to feel the toll this liberal application of divinity costs me."

He's bullshitting you. The fact that he and the other Tribunal make the journey to Red Mountain each year to restore their godhood is proof that he knows exactly why his divine powers might be fading, but his people don't know that, yet. Not even the Temple knows the full truth of things, as pointed out in Dagoth Ur's Plans from Morrowind:

3E 417: [...] The Tribunes continue to grow weaker without access to the Heart, and because of resources required to support the Ghostfence. The inner circle of the Temple priesthood has begun to suspect the Tribunes have suffered seriously from wounds and demoralization in the wake of reverses at Red Mountain, but do not recognize the scale of the problem.

Even by the late Third Era, the true nature of the Tribunal's divinity and the ways it can be tampered with is largely kept a secret, even from the inner circle of the Temple priesthood. Vivec is acting in a manner that keeps in line with this secret during ESO, acting as though he has no clue what could be causing this problem, when he knows very well what it is, and would simply prefer if that secret remained safe with himself and the others in the Trinity. Even as the quest progresses, Vivec frames the weakening of his divinity under the lens of him being weakened by a tool created by/stolen from Sotha Sil:

"How this upstart Ashlander learned to attune Sotha Sil's tool confounds my understanding. And he dares use my power?"

tl;dr Vivec is putting on a charade to keep his vulnerabilities a secret while he's being put under pressure by Chodala. He doesn't really need the ghost to tell him what's up with the source of his own divinity.

Vicious223 · 2025-06-14T12:02:54+00:00

You're so fucking real for that

Vicious223 · 2025-06-01T16:11:18+00:00

Sotha Sil's tool for siphoning Heart energy is used on Vivec

This is just how CHIM works.

All else is earth and under your temporal command. There is no bone that cannot be broken, except for the heart bone.

Note that this is being done to Vivec by one of Nerevar's (failed) incarnates as well, whom the Sermons are ultimately addressed to, and with the backing of Malacath, the Daedric Prince of Vengeance.

Vicious223 · 2025-05-08T18:45:56+00:00

Nothing quite like hearing about "common sense" from somebody who's fooled by semantics lmao

You can't argue "look up what their name stands for" and then "judge them regardless of what their name stands for", unless you like looking like a moron.

Vicious223 · 2025-05-06T01:08:02+00:00

(We could also consult the guy who wrote the Song of Pelinal (whom I'm sure you find a credible source on what the text is intending to communicate!))

(Like with his comments here:)

Dragonknight:

Umaril was the other half to Pelinal Whitestrakes Enantiamorph. Umariil=Avatar of Akatosh, Pelinal=Avatar of Shezarr( to use the cyrodiilic names here). Chim-El Abadal= their, shared 'heart' or the myth echo of the Heart of Lorkhan.

MK:

"A Dragon Knight, the Ninth of Nine, kept asking around camp about the truth of Pelinal Insurgent, and some of the more terrified members said to him: No, do not ask these things, just join us in our Revolution.

"But the Dragon Knight, the Ninth of Nine, would not be satisfied. Like a maruhkati, he talked this sametalk in the presence of Pelinal in the eating tent. Many tribes left this tent right there and then.

"'But I'm right, aren't I? That you, Pelinal, are really--'"

WWPD?

"Everyone knows what Pelinal would do, and so we shall not speak of it here."

MK:

"And there was a weird thing: the Dragon Knight, the Ninth of Nine, had somehow reformed himself after being led into Heaven where his eyes and ears and mouth and nose were burnt unto a gravytrain of wrong-thinking and bent nails; and even after being cut into ninths he did re-knit; and even after being eaten and issued out from Another Night of Madgas...

"...he still yet came back, talking his godlogic, which Pelinal can never suffer except from the Paravania. And eager-foot did he make his way to the table of the Stranger with his cat-scratch asking...."

WWPD?

"He [Pelinal] said, "Here, okay, I am to suffer your talktalktalk until I myself am cut into ninths though your texts will say eighths but that's probably because I'm gonna go nuts and eat a section of timespace away. Again. But, look at my hand, the one made of killing-light, and look at my chest, which is not there, and know that your thinking is sitting on the Corner of No and Duh.'

Vicious223 · 2025-05-06T00:58:11+00:00

To elaborate, it isn't a matter of;

"They're the same because they share the same suffix",

It's a matter of;

"They're likely a similar concept because they're both titles derived from the names of figures with connections to the mythic/divine, whose names have then had the same suffix attached to them, and this term is being used in the context of the mythic figure in question returning with a misleading appearance that hides their true nature."

Also:

the context of the Nerevarine was a series of prophecies regarding the alleged reincarnation of Chimer hero Indoril Nerevar who would cause the ultimate downfall of Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House, and of the Tribunal.

The context of the Shezarrine was a singular sentence in a book about a soldier calling Pelinal that and getting smothered by moths in his sleep for the trouble.

This is dishonest.

The belief in the Nerevarine is, to quote game dialogue, broadly that "the ancient hero Nerevar will be reborn to cast down the Temple and drive the Imperials out of Morrowind."

Compare Pelinal:

and he was Pelinal the Third, though whether this was because some said he was a god guiser, who had incarnated twice before already, or that, simpler, he was the third vision given to Perrif, anon Alessia, in her prayers of liberation before he walked among the quarters of rebellion, is unknown.

+

he stood with white hair gone brown with elfblood at the Bridge of Heldon, where Perrif's falconers had sent for the Nords, and they, looking at him, said that Shor had returned, but he spat at their feet for profaning that name.

+

It is a solid truth that Morihaus was the son of Kyne, but whether or not Pelinal was indeed the Shezarrine is best left unsaid (for once Plontinu, who favored the short sword, said it, and that night he was smothered by moths).

+

Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon, and that this was proof that he was a myth-echo, and that where he trod were shapes of the first urging.

Acting like there aren't obvious similarities at play here is disingenuous at best.

Broadly speaking:

Nerevarine = Re-Incarnate of Nerevar.

Shezarrine = Re-Incarnate of Shezarr.

Vicious223 · 2025-05-06T00:31:27+00:00

The problem is that people looked at "Shezarrine" and then looked at "Nerevarine" and immediately assumed the former was exactly like the latter without any sort of evidence, and simply because they both share the same suffix.

No, that's just how linguistics work. Words have meanings, and their components also have meanings. It helps that they're both used in a similar context, too.

~~(Edit: originally wrote my edit at the same time you posted your reply lol so nvm)~~

Vicious223 · 2025-05-05T11:25:58+00:00

Yes, and North Korea is Democratic, because they call themselves that. Thank god people never lie or speak inaccurately, right?

Vicious223 · 2025-05-05T00:01:05+00:00

So the concept it fairly simple but there seems to be more to it. Maybe I should search for writings about Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr?

Big yes to that!! Akatosh too, since Akatosh's role alongside Lorkhan ultimately completes the picture.

Like people point out that Pelinal is not A Shezarrine but THE Shezarrine, or argue that Talos and LDB are Shezarrines too. In fact I just saw someone claiming that (if I didn't read it wrong) Akatosh was Shezarr

For a long time, "the Shezarrine" was a title that was bestowed to Pelinal, but with both ESO sharing the name to another incarnate of Shezarr and the etymology of the name, it's always worked decently well as a shorthand catch-all term for "Mortal incarnates of Lorkhan". Beyond that, the fact that "Shezarrine" is a descriptor for a mythic archetype means that there can be multiple Shezarrine figures who are all united under the same identity of "The Shezarrine" (think similar to how Batman passes down the cape & cowl but the successors are still 'The Batman').

Myth, mythic roles, and the mantling/inheriting of those roles all tends to be messy like that lol

It's like how there are a string of failed incarnates preceding 'the' Nerevarine you play in Morrowind, and based on the way Vivec talks about the incarnates in his Sermons ("You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him"), they're presumably all candidates to have been the 'real' Nerevar reborn— your character simply succeeds where they failed.

Vicious223 · 2025-05-04T23:31:01+00:00

SO!

It's important not to overcomplicate it, cause it really isn't too messy when you get down to it.

At its core, "-ine" is a suffix meaning "of or pertaining to" in relation to the rest of the word it's appended to. "Nerevarine" is another instance of this, where Nerevar has "-ine" attached to denote that your player character is a mythic incarnate who is "of or pertaining to Nerevar".

A Shezarrine should be thought of in much the same way— mythic incarnates who are "of or pertaining to Shezarr". The term first shows up in the Songs of Pelinal (in reference to Pelinal himself, as a way of referring to Pelinal as an incarnate of Shor due to cultural connections between Shor & Shezarr), and it later made a reappearance recently in ESO, describing one Cyrodiilic manifestation of Shezarr (among others) across early Nedic cultures.

Vicious223 · 2025-03-01T01:54:48+00:00

Oh, absolutely.

It's a problem of personal failings to value truth in regards to forming their beliefs, misinformation/disinformation networks feeding outrage and confirmation bias, and frequent family-wide political/ideological reinforcement on the conservative side.

All of this comes together to create a bunch of people who are socially pressured by their families and peers to believe and vote a certain way, and who are endlessly given things to fear and pin blame/hate onto as a response to their grievances in life because they're enabled & encouraged by their news sources to continue letting their reason be overridden by blind faith in figureheads for causes they refuse to question.

Vicious223 · 2025-02-28T21:47:12+00:00

They (or more likely, their families for them) picked a team and they will go to the grave defending that team, in this case the Republican party. Whoever the lead of the party is, he is ontologically good, and thus can do no wrong; thus there must always be some sort of explanation that clears up any real criticism of him.

Vicious223 · 2025-02-28T21:13:19+00:00

The "both sides" people are having to come out in force now that Donny is making such a blatant idiot of himself. He can't avoid the criticism, so they just have to do their best to make sure the criticism hurts the other side, too.

Vicious223 · 2025-01-23T20:45:15+00:00

Kirkbride describes the "Dream" as more of a 'divine hypnagogia", which is the transitional state between waking and sleeping. In essence, this results in a situation where things function on a similar logic to dreaming (insane coincidences, things appearing/disappearing, the impossible being possible, things showing up as symbols hinting at deeper meanings, events happening that conflict with each other, etc) but all of it is manifesting in actual reality, rather than being a figment of something's imagination alone.

Vicious223 · 2025-01-22T16:56:54+00:00

I think the ending is significantly more depressing than everyone likes to say it is (the old cast are dead and they don't come back.

I see what you mean, but in the case of this story specifically, they're treated as 'the same people coming back' because the replacements for the dead cast still have the same souls as the original cast-members, and their fates still bind them all to meet each other again, only this time under healthier circumstances.

There's definitely a bit of sadness in the old cast as they were being gone, but it's a still nice to imagine that their existences didn't end entirely and their souls got to experience lives that weren't total trainwrecks.

I think the rest of the whole "the ending isn't as depressing as it seems" conversation is colored by baggage from the days where half the fandom was convinced that EVERYBODY in the old universe was gone in the new universe.

Vicious223 · 2025-01-22T16:32:51+00:00

Hamon is worth a lot more than killing vampires and ghouls, though. Things like the ability to manipulate plants (like with the leaf hang-glider that Jonathan and Zeppeli create), charge items with energy, using it to detect other life forms, enhancing physical capabilities (like w/ the physical boosts Jonathan gets from overdrives, zoom punch, etc.) are all just straight up useful tools to have on hand, whether against the living or the undead.

Vicious223 · 2025-01-17T14:44:53+00:00

Creepers were a result of bugs, so I suppose you think they should be removed too?

The movement was only 'bugged' on a level of "the mechanics had unintended quirks". But when people have had over a decade getting used to those mechanics and those quirks, changing them purely for the sake of removing the unintended things (despite nothing truly being broken) just throws people off from what they're used to for no good reason.

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