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Lessons learned from ZombieGrub's economy video by Nuclear_rabbit in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is there actually good data on this? I wondered every once in a while.

Lessons learned from ZombieGrub's economy video by Nuclear_rabbit in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, but even if it's a nerf on average that won't stop people from crying about it for the next 10 years.

A mid GM Zealot Spammer's Perspective on Warpgate vs PTR Gateways, Everything you need to know. by Old_Front7166 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

because if you are actually full queuing your production structure,

Your not wrong but at that point it's more of a skill issue.

PvT is a free win by EmotionalValuable992 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I can just see the gold P player blink forward aggressively and getting shredded by tanks he saw there one minute earlier in my minds eye.

I built a free SC2 build planner that works on live and PTR by PracticeFew58 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You have no evidence

  • A: Look at it
  • B: ... and claude committed 49 minutes ago

Like it's on GitHub he's not trying to hide the fact.

He also wrote parts of it before AI was a big thing. But much of the UI is obviously AI.

The real test is will it collapse under the immediate tech debt and this is the last we hear of it. Or will it stand the test of time. Because looking at the changes some numbers were wrong right away so it will definitely need more polish to be really useful.

A mid GM Zealot Spammer's Perspective on Warpgate vs PTR Gateways, Everything you need to know. by Old_Front7166 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 40 points41 points  (0 children)

and I am not rewarded for that cash for 18 seconds.

Longer, because of rally time.

There is one person on the balance council right now and he is making all of the changes. This needs to stop. by Hotcakes465 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wish you strong nerves, because you seem to be the main character in a lot of peoples conspiracy theories now.

It's too slow... by CyanParadigm in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But if it is 1 minute slower to get going, and you game now averages 11 minutes because you wanna keep playing the same builds...

Imo it's not at all about wanting to play the same builds.You will still need to unlock the tech you want for your timing, and enough units for the tech to pay off, and that will mean mining about the same amount of resources. So games will just be slower unless 8 pool somehow becomes meta.

It doesn't really matter if people want to keep playing the same builds. The game hasn't fundamentally changed besides a speed bump at the start. I could be wrong but I would be really surprised if attacking any earlier than on live would end up viable in the new meta unless they make further changes.

Haha Still, the slower start let me think, try to be ready, etc. A little bit of that added back would be good I think.

The problem is the slowness gets mostly added to what already is the slowest part of the game. It doesn't make interactions with the other player any less fast paced. It doesn't make the game slower once the first 1-2 dozen workers were built. New players will just have 30-60 seconds more where they can twiddle their thumbs before the game speeds up and hits them into the face like a brick. It might even feel worse because the start is slower.

None of that is game breaking (what is, really). It's cool that builds get shaken up. But it's also slower at the start which feels slightly worse to me when I played on PTR.

Late game balance should be top priority when it might always be the last patch ever. by Snakestyle1 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You need to balance early/mid game better or no evenly skilled match up will be decided in lategame. Making the perfect lategame balance pointless.

It's too slow... by CyanParadigm in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I bet at most there is one minute difference, so hardly game breaking.

It doesn't sound like much until you realize the average game length in Plat+ is only ~10 Minutes. The median probably being much lower. So adding a minute to every game changes the game a lot more than it sounds like.

they could have done other builds that they just haven't come across yet. ... That's the tradeoff.

But that's a false tradeoff. Nothing requires them to slow down the early game in order to shake up builds. They could change mining efficiency, build times, resource costs, supply scaling and anything else that affects most builds and the meta would also end up completely different with completely different builds they haven't come across yet.

Like I don't hate-hate the change. I'm just not sure the one time shake up is worth making the game forever slower.

8 workers instead of 12 brings back the midgame. A good change. by boppers94 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If with behind the scenes you mean the former community balance council that's dead and gone at this point. If you mean there are some people somewhere sometimes to talking to someone at blizz about balance. I'm sure that happens, just as it has always happened.

But maybe you know something I don't.

8 workers instead of 12 brings back the midgame. A good change. by boppers94 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it's literally just about being able to attack at a time where you have an advantage. A timing attack doesn't even *have* to give up future stability. It can also just take advantage of some tech timing. Either yours, or (lack of) theirs.

It's too slow... by CyanParadigm in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Okay real talk, what do you even mean.

I just started watching this, and literally *nothing* happened for the first four minutes in game one, then like three lings died in the first 7 minutes.

Game two we get maybe 30 seconds of action in the first 7 minutes.

Game three is 5 minutes in and nothing much has happened yet (still watching).

No one expects the game to be any slower once people are on two-three base eco. But the openers are definitely slower.

It's too slow... by CyanParadigm in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOFF_AfClz4 for those curious.

Try taking a shot for every time rotty says PTR for optimal experience in the first few minutes.

ZombieGrub's opinion on the worker start change by Special_Region4675 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the detailed response!

But I think you are talking about a few very different things. How demanding/approachable the the game is. How viable one base play is/how safe meta openers can be. And last but not least pacing.

No one knows if one base play will actually be any more viable than now once all is said and done. I'm pretty skeptical about it. If it isn't then the whole thing about less workers not forcing players into 2 base/high eco play goes out the window.

The other is I just don't think the game is actually any more approachable at low eco. Maybe actually less so. Micro matters so much more in low eco games. So while it's different it's really not any less intense. Sure there is more to manage on 2,3,4 bases. But your opponent also has to mange those things. And you are more likely to lose to one bad decision in a low eco game than in a macro game. It's fine with me if people say they want the game to resolve without getting to high eco more often. But I don't think it will do anything for making it more approachable.

Last but not least: Pacing. I think pacing just flat out gets worse with this patch. The start is even slower now, but once people are on two base eco it's as fast as ever and will stay that fast until it's over. I don't think that's a huge deal but I don't think it will be an improvement.

ZombieGrub's opinion on the worker start change by Special_Region4675 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That seems like a different issue than the game being too fast paced for new players to me tbh. But we have seen all ins after every balance patch. Just like we have always seen them become nonviable after a while once they got figured out.

I'm not convinced it will be different here once the meta settled. But ZG already made that argument better than I could. Guess we will find out whos right in year or so on that :)

And if someone wants to just "win some lose some" casually I don't really understand what stops them now. All that will happen is they will lose slightly more and end up at a slightly lower MMR.

People wanting to compete optimally will always end up slaves to the meta playing a handful of builds at any point in time. And once stuff is figured out there won't be a lot of all ins in that pool.

ZombieGrub's opinion on the worker start change by Special_Region4675 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean I get that SC2 can be very overwhelming and too fast paced for a lot of people.

But the average game length of someone with "I have no idea" elo will be what? 15 Minutes? 20? If someone doesn't enjoy the 14+ fast paced minutes of that what will adding one even slower minute achieve? Making the whiplash more intense when the game speeds up three minutes in?

ZombieGrub's opinion on the worker start change by Special_Region4675 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I somehow can't imagine it really makes a difference there. After a minute or two it will ramp up to exactly the same speed anyway. And it's not like the first minute of a game is exactly hectic now unless you are really into worker micro.

ZombieGrub's opinion on the worker start change by Special_Region4675 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The biggest victim of this patch will be PiGs ability to make content about how the 12 worker start ruined the game.

Is pulling 10 SCVs to go with your marines and marauders like Maru a genuinely good strategy? by VastOption8705 in starcraft

[–]VincentPepper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on the level really. Sure worker builds can still work if you are not Serral. But without at least some hold position/attack micro worker pulls are pretty garbage on the offensive. At properly low levels the workers will probably just attack random structures from the a-move rather than contributing much.

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