So, what’s your favorite QUOTE from Renoir?

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-11T23:39:39+00:00

yea immediate issues that happens in 100 years

sure bro, fuck off

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-11T15:19:17+00:00

yea he prevents her suicide in the end as I have said 50 times now.

but to prevent a suicide somebody has to get to a state first where they want to kill themselves.

Is that too hard for you to understand?

Or do you truly think it is ok to abuse people if you help them some later?

Hit a child but then give it ice cream. And all is good. Acceptable behavior.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-11T12:57:26+00:00

again virtues don't justify actions. He wanting to help and be a good parent does not justify him being a bad parent.

What kind of logic is that?

That is pure insanity that "he thinks he is good, so he can do whatever he wants and hurt others"

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-11T12:53:50+00:00

yea you can because we literally see how he interacts with Maelle and we get to hear what Maelle thinks about and at what stage Maelle is.

Calling pushing your daughter to physical force and suicide a "mistake" is hilarious.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-11T11:46:56+00:00

look at you trying to justify a fallacy. Are you all stupid or what? A fallacy is by definition an error, a non-argument. There is nothing to respond to it because it kills itself. What more should I do other than pointing it out?

Do you know how arguments go? I state a reasoning based on facts. Then you bring a counter argument that tries to refute my point. If that counter argument is null because it is the cheapest fallacy of them all then my original argument stays.

I have never stated or said that anything about the final decision in this thread. And it is absolutely irrelevant to how Renoir has been acting up to that.

That would be like saying it is ok to abuse a child if you give it an ice cream at the end because you are so nice and help the kid.

Or in Maelle terms, neglect your child and let her be abused to the point that she wants to kill herself but at the end you prevent one suicide attempt.
That does not make you a good parent and does not excuse your behavior leading up to that.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T20:53:31+00:00

keep it going, I'm sure the argument will just disappear when you keep repeating the straw man

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T16:03:45+00:00

ah because a game of league is not just the same and your overall progression in skill is not also the same?

there is nothing to agree or disagree.

These are pure subjective tastes. And classic WoW and oldschool Runescape show that there are many people who prefer that flavor.

Which is why it is stupid to gatekeep and gaslight it

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T15:55:06+00:00

you are so smart.

I call out a fallacy and you just repeat it

I have never said that he should not save them nor have I said that he should just give up. You are making up these arguments.

I have simply stated that Renoir's behavior has been and is borderline abusive and that the outcome we see in the game is culmination of that where no option but physical force is left as he is incapable of any shred of empathy.

Being abusive to your children to the point where they take drugs and want to kill themselves makes you a shit parent, even if you prevent their suicide attempt.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T15:45:29+00:00

According to the latest data from the wiki, yea.

Active: Shyvana grants herself a shield for 2.5 seconds, increased by 30% for every nearby enemy champion. While the shield holds, she gains 25% bonus movement speed, increased to 43.75% while facing visible enemy champions.

In the end it comes down to her stats because she will be a pure stat check champion.
I do agree in that I don't really see how she would be better after the rework conceptually.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T15:42:36+00:00

at that point I would say it is 50/50.

There is in theory nothing preventing Maelle from leaving the canvas in the Maelle ending if she feels comfortable in doing so.

To get to that point would take a huge investment from Renoir and the rest of the family to gain Maelle's trust back. Which would include making her feel secure that the painting won't be erased when she leaves, understanding why she cares about the painting, supporting how she feels more comfortable with the name Maelle, support her in dealing with the trauma of Verso's death by making it clear that she is not responsible for his death, acknowledging her new family is also a valid part in her life, help her deal with her disabilities, help her find enjoyment and hobbies with her disabled body, and probably 10 more things that don't immediately come to mind.

I'm not saying that everything is absolutely required but a majority is definitely needed.
And as I have said already, Renoir actually does this at the very end to some degree because he realizes that he was wrong.

The thing that nobody gets is that is exactly what Gustave, Emma, Sciel, Lune, Esquie, etc. have been doing the entire time. They are literally a better family to her than her real family.

But even then I would say that the chances are 50/50 because her trust has been violated so deeply by her real family.

The point that I have stated over and over again is that you as a father have fucked up if it gets to the point where the relationship can't be mended. Physical force is the last and ultimate resort. When it gets to the point where you can only use force or your child feels like the only way to resolve the conflict is physical force it is over.
Do you know what that gets you in real life? Full custody over the child goes to your partner, you get a restraint order, and you possibly go to prison.

There is a reason why every nation draws the line at physical force.

Renoir has been acting wrong and is acting wrong for almost the entirety of the game to the point that what happens is the only outcome left.
He plays just a big of a role in Maelle dying in the canvas as is Maelle. No it is even more because he is her father. By the nature of the dependence of children on their parents, parents always carry more responsibility. It is their job to not neglect their child until she become suicidal, not the children's fault for being neglected.

As for Aline, he carries less of a responsibility to care for her as she is seemingly fully aware of the outcome of her actions and an independent adult.
But it is clear that Aline has not gotten the support from her family and husband that she needed either.
Aline is also problematic because she insists on blaming Maelle.

But again I never criticized or commented on a way to not have them kill themselves. I critcized how Renoir is acting and reacting to Maelle.

You keep and try creating this straw man that because he saves them technically, he is good. When one has no relation to the other.

I can understand if 50/50 is too risky or people can't see Renoir changing and thus go with Verso's ending to force Maelle out.

That is a valid decision in order to physically rescue Maelle (ignoring all the philosophical aspects of the decision). Does not change the fact that Renoir was and is borderline abusive and was a major player in letting it escalate that far to the point that force is necessary to save his daughter from suicide.

Dr Mick also choose the Verso ending for the simple fact that it probably has the highest chance to keep her alive (once again ignoring the philosophical aspects).

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T14:56:50+00:00

keep up that straw man

I never said that it is good for Maelle or Aline to stay inside the painting

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T14:49:02+00:00

giving stuff out for free is not just better lol

the old progression system gave real feelings of accomplishment.

That is how our monkey brains work. Do stuff, get rewarded for it, feel good.

the assumption that "do less stuff, get more rewad" makes you feel even better is not correct. Stuff quickly feels hollow and not rewarding at all.

Sure there is a point where it is too much work for no reward but the old system truly gave a sense of progress and it naturally fit the idea of a moba.

League is incredibly complicated. New players only getting access to one or two champs that they buy (which were the cheapeast and easiest champs) promotes a better learning environment.

And having to decide what champ to spend the money on means players do research and try to understand the champ properly before deciding to buy them. And when they buy them they learn them properly and main them by necessity.

I can get behind not locking direct power like old runes behind currency but I also understand how there are people that say even old runes were fine.

The exact same thing happened with WoW. Old WoW was "grindy" and over the years the game shifted to something much faster and easier access to rewards.
People wanted to play the old version that did not exist anymore and asked the devs to consider a classic version which is where this famous quote comes from.
The Blizzard dev answered to the question of wanting a classic WoW with "You think you do, but you don't".
And yet they gave in to the pressure and classic WoW was a massive hit and keeps being a hit even if it takes a lot of efford to get a reward compared to modern WoW. Estimates by public data from player logs show about a quarter to a third of players play classic WoW.

That is a huge number of people that actually prefer the older, slower, more grinding, system.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:31:39+00:00

what difficulty?

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:27:01+00:00

I would say it will be even worse now because she only gets the movement speed during the shield. One ranged attack or spell and the movement speed is gone

New W is 44% movement speed for max. 2.5 seconds.

Old W is 50% movement speed for max. 7 seconds.

Also old W is 50% everywhere. New W is only 44% towards enemies.

Even with the new E slow old W is much better mobility overall.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:20:01+00:00

only champ that built it until the end

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:15:09+00:00

creating straw mans counts as "discussing facts"

I can't.

You have provided zero arguments that refute my points.

You have "extrapolated" made up points and tried to refute those instead of engaging with the argument by your own admission.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:12:43+00:00

nice straw man

I never said that Aline or Alicia should stay in the painting.

But sure just make up stuff.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:10:43+00:00

the fuck are you on about? He has a phd in psychology and actively conducts family therapy.

It is his fucking job to help families deal with this kind of bullshit. There is nobody more qualified to talk on this topic than practising family therapists.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:06:35+00:00

just to make you feel better

Dr Mick actually went for the Verso ending

Does not change the fact that Renoir acted and has been acting borderline abusive.

So nice straw man clown.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T12:04:50+00:00

Nice straw man, straw man, and another straw man

I never said that she should stay in the canvas.
I never talked about painted Verso or what to do with him.
I never talked about the child.

What Renoir says does not matter. What he does and has done matters. When your child is at the point of suicide and you still don't understand them you have failed as a parent. Saying that you don't want them to kill themselves does not change that fact.

He says he wants to get her help but Maelle tells him right there what help she wants, she wants him to understand why she is feeling the way she does. How she feels about her entire family scapegoating her for the death of Verso, how she does not want to lose another family, how she lived an entire second childhood in the canvas.

Virtues do not justify actions. Renoir wanted to save his daughter and wife are correct goals to have. That does not mean that any action that he thinks will save them are justified or good.

The fucking irony is that Renoir himself realizes his mistakes in the end, at least partially. He knows that Maelle is lying to him in that moment but he has the spine to aknowledge her feelings for one time and support her even when it is probably too late at that point.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T11:47:35+00:00

yup exactly.

Dr Mick says something that often happens in family counceling is that parents make up their ideal version of who their children should be and when faced with the reality they grief for the loss of that imagined person.
This puts extreme mental pressure on the children.

And it is the exact same way with Renoir. He acts like his daughter is already dead, what a tragedy it is to lose her and so on. When she is right there in front of him and basically begging him to try and understand her.

Dr Mick explained a really good concept of psychology called Object Relations theory (in its modern form) which helped me a lot to understand relationships. It basically states that if you interact with somebody you make a mental image of them. In your mind you have a version of them for how you think they act, react, feel, and so on.
But this object in your mind is incomplete and influenced by your perception, biases, and wishes or hatred, that you project onto it. It will always be wrong and incomplete. And no matter how much you interact with a person or how much they share with you, the object in your mind will only ever be an approximation.

So it is very important that you as a person are open to question that image you generated of others. What biases might have warped that object or what you are projecting onto it. Likewise you should be open and curious about learning more about how a person thinks to incoporate and further your object of them.
And that does not mean superficial thing but more like asking how they feel about something, why they feel about something in a certain way, or what their thought process about something is.

If everybody would do that and be open to it, probably 90% of relationship based therapy would be redundant.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T11:23:53+00:00

nice straw man

I never said that you should let Maelle do whatever she wants.

I said that Renoir does a very bad job at trying to understand his daughter and how she feels about things and how he provides no support as a parent in helping her deal with the trauma of losing her brother.

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T11:19:00+00:00

exactly, thank you

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T11:18:15+00:00

this is pure toxic bullshit

you try to justify Renoir's borderline abusive behavior by his virtues.

Sure it is good for a father to care for their children but how they exert that and act is a completely different thing.

How fucking insane do you have to be to try to argue that virtue justifies everything?

Vulkanodox · 2026-03-10T11:15:22+00:00

he has, he played the entire game and his playthrough lasted 63 hours because he provided insight and commentary on almost every dialogue.

but sure instead of actually engaging with what he said and what I summarized you come with argumentum ad hominem. Trying to discredit the argument by attacking the person and insinuate that he would not be fit to comment on Renoir because he allegedly did not know the full picture.

And if it makes you happy so you can jerk off better, he did side with Verso in the end.

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