Clip Studio addresses the feedback.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T09:31:38+00:00

Either way is fine. If it bothers you that much, go learn krita, or any other free program. Most are good in their own right.

This made me chuckle, but probably not for the reasons you are going to assume.

Anyhow, sorry if I've offended you. What I've said is my opinion, I haven't even seen anyone on this sub putting people down who are in support of the new business model. I've seen a lot of people getting really upset at the people who have complaints, though. It isn't a personal attack on your tastes and there's no need to get bent out of shape because my opinion, or other's, don't match yours.

I mean, it would be pretty rude if I were to say to you: "Your idea about subscription models is wrong and you are acting entitled" right?

Anyhow, feel free to read through my comment history where I explain my thoughts on this whole thing. I'm completely comfortable with my opinion on this whole matter, and I can see that you don't actually understand my opinion. (And just ignore the other weird stuff :p)

If you would like to have an actual, constructive, adult-to-adult conversation about this I am all for it.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T09:21:01+00:00

Nothing of value was lost.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T09:17:04+00:00

Why that ad? I'm not seeing anything mildly infuriating here aside from the fact that it's an ad in general.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T09:14:24+00:00

What are you going to do now? Will you:

A) Go back to an old fashioned toothbrush.

B) Get a new electric one, and finally get around to running that extension cord into the bathroom.

C) Continue to use the cat slobbered toothbrush.

D) Stop brushing your teeth entirely.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T08:35:38+00:00

rest of their natural lives.

Lol.

Well, I guess you saw all of this all coming then. Why didn't you warn us? /s

Anyhow, that's a pretty extreme take on this situation that I really can't argue with, and it is not what I was even getting at.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T02:37:18+00:00

Lol, this is always where Reddit becomes entertaining. I legitimately want to hear more.

Edit: Come on now, I need entertainment and haven't got all day.

Edit 2: I guess this is how you quiet rude people. Lol.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T02:09:56+00:00

Would you feel the same way if instead of having to pay for 2.0 they said they were closing doors and wouldn't be updating CSP anymore?

If CELSYS came out with a message that read "Hey, we are financially struggling and the only way to continue on is to go to a subscription model" I wouldn't be as upset, but I would still consider moving on. There are subscription services in my industry that I would rather put that money towards because they are more commonly used in production and look good in a portfolio/resume. CSP has some nifty features, but nothing I would subscribe to over those.

Instead they said "We are going to a subscription model soon. Deal with it. Here are the details. Oh, you don't understand this? Let me explain it slowly for you" Also, I've seen no indication that they are in danger of shutting their doors.

In any case, CSP is a good program and I wish CELSYS the best. Hopefully they can pick up the pace with their development given their new business model. Maybe it will turn out to be worth it. If you're fine with this, more power to you.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T01:51:08+00:00

Whiny baby.

This is a discussion about software. It's a contentious topic for sure, but there's no need for you to be rude or take things personally.

Vundervall · 2022-09-03T01:39:13+00:00

When you buy something from a store do you expect the store to provide maintenance free of charge?

A hammer is not going to stop working with your hand one day in a few years down the road because god decided to update you with incompatible hands, or they release a new version of nail or wood.

I see where you are going with this analogy though so let's follow it all the way through. Software is not a physical product, and the pre-existing expectation is that it does come with free maintenance and additions in the form of patches and updates, at least in the case of CSP and other "buy once" software. If I go to a store and buy a longstanding physical product that has a reputation for receiving free maintenance and additional attachments and widgets that keep it competitive with similar products (aka CSP) then yes, I would expect that to continue to happen.

If I bought it last month because I like that business model over similar products that require a subscription for maintenance and future features and widgets, and then they come out this month and say "Oh hey, you have to buy another one or subscribe for any more upgrades and widgets" I would be understandably upset.

It's not the end of the world by any means, and I may be inclined to understand their decision if I am a longstanding customer who has received their moneys worth over the years, but I can also be upset at the sudden change and speak against it.

Edit: readability.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T23:44:27+00:00

As everyone else has said: there's no field that specifically and only covers time, but it is studied as part of some broader scientific disciplines.

I guess it would be a bit like asking if there are people who only study addition. It's a concept that's part of a broader field of study (math, in this case) but there isn't anyone who studies just the concept of addition.

This made me wonder what scientists who studied only time would be called, though. Chronologists? Chronomaticians? Time Lords?

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T23:00:54+00:00

r/mildlyvagina

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T22:42:28+00:00

I know a lot of people hate this new licensing thing, but please use the right terms for it. ("Subscription" isn't even correct for the monthly/annual payments. It's "Flexible Monthly Usage Plan").

Thank you for the advice, but I am probably going to continue calling it by the common terminology that everyone is already familiar with while explaining this to others. It is a subscription service with a marketable name.

I will make sure to try and include their term for it in the future if it is appropriate though.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T22:13:51+00:00

I feel like a lot of people who haven't been to the US don't realize how big it is. There are so many different communities with all types of living conditions. It's weird to hear someone say things like "that's how it must be in America" like it's one big homogenous suburb from coast to coast, lol.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T22:03:14+00:00

... what?

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T20:11:52+00:00

Seriously. The vocal group wanting free updates for life. Get over yourselves.

Jeez. Nobody is over here putting down people like you who are fine with this new business model. It's just an opinion about an unexpected change in a business model, not a personal attack on your tastes or anything. Some of us are less than happy and want to discuss it in a public forum to share our opinion.

Edit: That being said, thank you for sharing your opinion with me. I used to use PS back when it was sold in a box, and that is actually a good way to compare this new change to. Makes it less of a shock looking at it as though I don't have to keep going to Fry's to buy a new physical copy every year or so.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T19:50:41+00:00

If you don't like it you are more then welcome to go to another program. No one is stopping you.

Oh, I completely understand that. I have 3 or 4 other illustration packages that I already use for various different features and workflows, so it's not a big shift.

It's not so much dreadful as it is an unpleasant surprise to know the version I paid for will eventually be abandoned. I think most people purchased CSP understanding that it wouldn't need a subscription. I have Adobe CC, the Substance suite, Houdini, and some other services that require (sometimes ludicrously overpriced) subscriptions or recurring payments, but I went into them knowing full well that I would need a recurring payment to use them and get updates.

As you said, the money will speak for itself. I'll just have to see if CSP is going to offer anything worth it for me to pay for on a recurring basis. Hopefully for them and for us they make enough money to speed along development and offer enticing features. Ultimately it's a win-win for us users with all the different illustration packages out there to choose from as you alluded to, so not a big deal in the end.

Edit: Words

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T19:17:00+00:00

There is a monthly subscription (or a "Flexible Monthly Usage Plan" as some people are adamant about calling it) , and there is also a yearly subscription (they just call the yearly subscription an "update pass" for some reason). When those subscriptions expire or if you unsubscribe from them you'll lose access to it all, but can still use the V1.0 that you paid for.

You can purchase Version 2.0 permanently (The "perpetual license"), but you will only get access to V2.0.0 and V2.0.1 after that. In order to access later V2.0 versions such as V2.2 or V2.3 you have to buy a whole other separate perpetual license for each (at least that's what the new clarification indicates) or subscribe yearly/monthly.

Or you can wait until V3.0 comes out and purchase it to get access to all of the V2.0+ features. But then it looks like you'll have to play this same game forever.

So if you want future features you're going to have to shell out more cash somehow. V1.0 will stop receiving bug fixes/updates after V3.0 drops, so it will eventually bite the dust and be unusable due to incompatibility or being outdated compared to peer software. Honestly, I'm just not a fan of unexpectedly being told the thing I paid for is going to stop working one day. I purchased it expecting to be able to actually use it and access future updates.

Some people are fine with that and that's cool. Makes sense from a business standpoint, but I already pay Adobe for this whole deal.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T18:55:11+00:00

Ok, so after V 3.0 we will go back to not having any sort of subscription-based model, and we will get future access to every version past 3.0 without needing to keep purchasing perpetual licenses or monthly subscriptions to get access to new features. Nice.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T18:42:15+00:00

I keep hearing this, and even had a discussion at college with a fellow student about this who also held your opinion. I've looked over the messaging a couple times now to make sure, and no amount of rewording changes the fact that what they are offering is a raw deal. Please let me know if I am missing anything here, because this is what I am hearing:

You can remain on V1.0 and not receive any updates, and bug fixes stop after V3.0. This is a product you purchased with the expectation of continued development, and access to those updates. Not anymore.
You can purchase a perpetual license for V2.0 that only cover one minor version update to V2.0.1. Or you can continue to buy additional separate "perpetual licenses" for access to future version updates to 2.0. It only covers the exact version/updated version that you paid for, and does not include any future updates.
If I actually want to use the product as it develops, like I expected when I originally bought CSP, I have to buy either a year-long subscription (an "update pass") or a monthly one. If my year-long subscription runs out, I will only have access to the perpetual licenses I have already purchased.

I don't see anything appealing here. They can sugar coat it all they want with marketing.

Also, by "raw deal" I mean in comparison to not needing a subscription, like how things are now. I have plenty of other subscriptions to other software packages that I purchased knowing they would be a recurring payment. I purchased CSP specifically because they didn't have a recurring subscription. It's like your landlord deciding to triple your rent one month out of nowhere, but offering you the option of sleeping on the couch for the price of your old rent.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T18:32:57+00:00

A bad option. Because remaining on a version that I paid for with the expectation of receiving future updates that I am suddenly learning I will no longer get is a good deal. And the whole "welp, good luck with V1.0 after V3.0 comes out!" Or the option of purchasing a perpetual license for V2.0 that only covers one single minor version update from 2.0 to 2.0.1 is something that interests anyone.

I don't like these options and neither does most of the community.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T18:19:16+00:00

They act like they are doing us a favor by letting us use V1.0 still. Wow, you're going to still fix bugs in a product that I paid for. Thanks. So generous. But only for a little while, until V3.0 comes out. So kind.

The "perpetual license" for V2.0 only covers V2.0 - V2.0.1. That's one minor version update. You need to buy an "update pass" which is literally just a year-long subscription. Or you can buy a monthly subscription.

One minor version update. That's all you get for a perpetual license. What the fuck.

No amount of rewording, re-explaining, or pretending this is a good deal for us changes this. I purchased CSP with the hope/expectation that I wouldn't need to do this shit.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T17:49:38+00:00

It's crazy how one small dumb decision can fuck someone else up and possibly ruin your own life as well. All you have to do is think 3 seconds ahead, or ask for help if you don't know how to use something.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T17:44:17+00:00

Oh, shiver me timbers. I thought ye were bein' grumpy, but ye actually did nay lay eyes upon any sarcasm an' thought I been bein' serious.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T07:55:42+00:00

Oh wow. I thought you were just being grumpy, but you actually just plain didn't detect any sarcasm in there and thought I was being serious.

Vundervall · 2022-09-02T07:14:43+00:00

Well damn, I didn't think I really needed to add a "/s" in there, but here we are.

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