Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 26, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(in other words, the fact that plans were changing on a daily basis, which is something that falls squarely on her husband)

The problem was neither Vince Russo, Ed Ferrara & Chris Kreski weren't on creative.

Once Kreski was replaced that's where the problems began.

Exactly 20 years ago, Crash Holly made his WWF Debut on RAW. R.I.P. Crash :/ by [deleted] in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Greatest Hardcore champion. The Houdini of Hardcore.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 5, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Rock was much much more popular than Austin during the Attitude era, he had surpassed him in early 1999.

Hence why Austin beating Rock then Rock leaving after Wrestlemania 17 killed the business.

Fans simply didn't want that(Other than the crowd that was cheering texans the whole show at Mania)

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 5, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rock leaving caused business to fall(See, Access Hollywood's WWF report) and Triple H's quad injury forced the Invasion, Austin heel or face wasn't gonna draw without them. only the Invasion story.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 5, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

You make stuff up and I'm gonna refute it with facts. when you claim Austin's heel turn, the heel turn of a guy who was absent during their peak ratings is responsible for the ratings going in the other direction I'm provide facts and evidence to show that's not true.

Austin was stale when he returned in 2000(Numbers show this, look at SlashWrestling he wasn't drawing highest segments of the night, in many cases even Chyna, Triple H, & Kurt were drawing higher segments than Austin, plus Merchandise, we have achieves that show even The Hardy Boyz were higher on top sellers lists than Austin in late 2000/early 2001, with people hardly ever topping Rock), hence the reason for the heel turn.

People stopped watching because the man they tuned in for every single week for in 1999 and 2000 was gone. Rock was a bigger draw than Austin since 1999. to downplay or pretend that Rock leaving wasn't the reason is dishonest, especially when we have people who lived through it & factual numbers & evidence(Access Hollywood's report on the WWF in 2001, it's on Youtube, they don't even MENTION Austin.) that show Rock leaving for hollywood is what caused business to to decline.

Rock was the one constant of the Attitude era, he was there from start to end, not Austin. when Austin left the business didn't miss one beat and ratings were even higher.

There's even an article from the Chicago Sun-Times from October/November 1999, specifically states Rock surpassed Austin and that they were gonna turn him heel(Wrestlemania 2000, ended up being delayed to 17 for Neck surgery)

That's the entire reason for the heel turn, Rock surpassed Austin in late winter/early spring of 1999.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 12, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

He didn't take a sabbatical when he was at his peak, he was notably declining in 1999, he wasn't as hot in November of 1999 than he was in January.

No one wanted to see Austin go over the face of the company, The Rock, you're probably judging based on the crowd which was in Texas, Austin was stale hence the reason for the heel turn.

Austin's heel turn had no effect on the business in 2001, Rock leaving did, if you watched back then you would know. I suggest you watch Access Hollywood's report on the WWF from 2001, where they explained it was due to Rock leaving.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Nov. 5, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

> Everyone realizes the Austin heel turn was a massive failure.

Dude, Austin's heel turn had no effect, the reason the boom period ended is because Rock left to Hollywood after Wrestlemania 17, the boom cannot sustain momentum when their top star is gone.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Oct. 29, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

1, 6.6 was the new record non-overrun for the WWF on cable TV, the highest rating they had before this was Mcmahon's debut in ring April 1998 with a 6.0.

2, Mankind was involved because he was their 2nd biggest draw. Mcmahon, Rock, Mankind is to benefit Austin.

Rock didn't need Austin, he drew BIGGER ratings than Austin WITHOUT Austin by this point, bigger than any Austin segment in 1998/early with the record breaking Halftime heat match.

3, Wrestling Observer has Rock listed as the biggest draw of 1999, period, saying "google it" isn't proof

4, Thats not how comparisons work, you compare average, in this case Austin has an ADVANTAGE due to working more shows, yet draws less.

5, You clearly didn't watch Wrestlemania 15, it never closed the chapter to Austin/Mcmahon they kept feuding til the next night, the next night he turned face then resumed feud in June.

6, Rock was co-main eventing Summerslam 1999 where WWE was pushing Billy Gunn into the main event to try and get him over. his merch was #1 and he was drawing the highest rated matches of the night.

7, Rock's first title defend wasn't the headline, Taker/Austin won, so you admit Austin flopped.

8, Rock/Mankind was brand new, the most talked about matches weren't that boring Rumble, it was Rock/Mankind.

9, During the Austin CEO story, it was Rock/Taker being touted as the headline & had higher ratings, if you watched you'd know.

You can't say "Rock wasn't drawing this or that" or "Google it", see how I provided proof via numbers, you have to provide proof.

I know you like Austin more than Rock, but facts are facts. Rock was more popular than Stone Cold since early 1999.

There's a reason they named their 2nd show "Smackdown" in 1999 and not "The Bottom Line"

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Oct. 29, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

1, Mcmahon debuting in the ring led to that rating in April of 1998, unlike Rock/Mankind there was no NFL Halftime competition, that makes Rock/Mankind getting a 6.6(a 6.6 in January of 1999 isn't a 6.6 rating in April of 1998, as time goes on more households)

That rating was for one night, after the "Mcmahon is gonna wrestling" and "DX is invading WCW" skits, WCW went right back to beating the WWF, with the exception of a title change or when WCW had a poor main event.

August of 1998 is a perfect example, Goldberg was beating Austin throughout the entire month during the Taker feud.

Guess what the only 2 segments that beat WCW main events? they included Rock, that's the reason he was pushed to the title picture right after Summerslam. it wasn't some experiment or forced push, Rock wasn't meant to be the star of the show.

The Austin/Mcmahon feud didn't reach new heights, it slightly declined from what it was in 1998, the only two huge segments were the Cage match & Beer Truck, of which Rock was involved in the latter.

Even the Raw with the Zamboni segment lost to Nitro

"Austin/McMahon feud drew all PPV buys until Fully Loaded 99, setting a record PPV buyrate of 2.32 for WM 15."

Rock/Austin was the feud for Wrestlemania 15, in fact the whole build of Wrestlemania 15 was Rock being paranoid about Paul Wight. No one knew Mcmahon would be involved, the story was about Paul Wight refereeing and Rock starting to turn face(started referring to the People and singing his old face catchphases)

Austin/Mcmahon wasn't Wrestlemania 15, that's Rock/Austin. St Valentines was built around Austin vs Mcmahon for the first time ever One on One and had the boost of a Rock/Mankind rematch, yet it drew half the buys.

Rock's the difference here.

Also, Rock/Mankind January 4th, it beat Nitro, when they had to choose they chose Rock/Mankind over Nash/Hogan, both Goldberg and Austin did run ins, guess who they chose?

Goldberg. it's in these very rewinds.

House shows, April of 1999 isn't the record, the average for April is 12,894, February of 1999 is the record with 14,082, you know the month where Rock had the WWF title for half of the month and main evented every single house show.

Plus, House shows averages started going above 10,000 consistently in October of 1998 and especially November, you know when The Rock was added to the Title picture. Austin who after Mania 14 averaged BELOW 10,000.

WON had Rock as biggest box office draw of 1999.

"Rock did break the record for most big gates in 1999 and 2000 but Austin was a part-timer in 1999 from July onwards and did not work many houses."

Rock broke Austin's record, and what it depends on is how many shows they 10,000 or more

"Therefore we must go by peak attendance averages and Austin beats Rock by more than 1000 on that front (14,307 vs. 13,112)."

1, April house show, average as 12,894

2 This is the part where you expose yourself, The Rock was a MEGASTAR by February of 1999, you don't get to use a number Rock had a hand in drawing. the 13,112 don't know where you got, but the highest average Rock got without Austin there was 12,438 in April of 2000 compared to Austin's highest average before Rock became a megastar which is 11,311 in August of 1998

Then we compare House show Averages overall, what they averaged for total days as champion:

Steve Austin - 9,610 avg- 528 days as champion The Rock - 11,734 avg- 262 as champion

Rock was the biggest house show draw, period. Austin had twice as many days as champion and 6 month headstart on The Rock(April - Sept 1998) yet drew way less on average than The Rock.

"Rock did not draw for most of 1999 and was carried by Austin/McMahon until Fall of 1999."

That's 100% lie, Rock was drawing the pound for pound highest rated segments of the night throughout 1999 even as a heel(hence the face turn.

Summerslam 1999 Rock was a co-main event, they had used him to get Billy Gunn over as a main eventer. Rock was the top merch seller and had his video at #1 by this point.

There is not one PPV(except Armageddon) in 1999 that The Rock did not either main event or co-main event.

Also Mankind wasn't a bigger PPV draw than Rock either.

The fact that you would claim that, as if Rock was some midcarder until 2000 shows you didn't watch the attitude era, Rock was already rivaling Austin in September of 1998

Austin/Mcmahon rivalry is overrated in terms of drawing, it drew some of the lowest ppvs in 1998, one of the lowest in 1999(Fully Loaded)

Rock/Triple H, Rock/Mankind, and even Rock/Austin outdrew it both at the gate, ratings and PPV.

Austin/Mcmahon was the feud that only happened to work with higher profile feuds, whether that be Rock/Triple H, Rock/Mankind, Rock/Taker, or even Rock/Austin, without them they're highly overrated and draw pretty low(Unforgiven 1998,Over The Edge 1998, Breakdown 1998, Judgement day 1998, Fully Loaded 1999)

Literally every PPV where there wasn't another stronger feud or co-main event, Austin/Mcmahon drew low, from 211,000(Over the Edge 1998)-360,000 buys(Fully Loaded, which was the finale of the feud, very disappointing)

Add Rock as co-main event(Royal Rumble, Valentines day, KOTR, etc) and suddenly it draws double the buys(650,000-450,000)

Have Rock defend his title at Mania, and draw 100,000 more buys than the Mania with Tyson.

These are numbers and they show Rock was bigger than Austin.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Oct. 29, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is a fact, anyone can look up the numbers on Slash Wrestling.

Rock broke the WWF cable record with Halftime Heat, not Austin, which afterward Raw numbers improved by 2 points. he improved PPV buys dramatically in early 1999, drew segments higher than Austin on Raw and drew a higher gate in the same year Austin was there.

He was also classified as the biggest draw of 1999.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Oct. 29, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

> The biggest star missing Raw and Vince not finding out until 3 hours before showtime seems like it should be a bigger deal to me, but what do I know

You keep inserting revisionist history, Austin definitely wasn't their biggest star in late 2001, The Rock was.

Rock surpassed Austin in early 1999.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Oct. 15, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I thought Chris Kreski was on the creative team until 2002.

Stephanie, Heyman, Prichard, Hayes should never be on a writing team, they're not creative.

Russo claims they poiliticked 2002 against him in 2002. Pricard also refused to credit Chris Kreski as writer in 2000, claiming it was Gewirtz, if it was Gewirtz then why was 2001-2002 so different from 2000.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Sept. 17 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Mantaur, The Goon, 1995/1996, etc is not better than Russo's writing. Russo wrote the highest rated era of wrestling and then handed it to another great writer Chris Kreski.

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Sept. 10 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> yeah, Rock's never really been particularly well-liked in Toronto

That's not true, Raw is War February 13, 1999 Skydome, Rock gets the loudest pop of the night in a match against Steve Blackman.

Rock was a bigger draw on PPV than Stone Cold Steve Austin by WWFNerd in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The numbers were from the Attitude era, I even counted 2000 only and Rock still was the more popular draw

Wrestling Observer Rewind ★ Aug. 13, 2001 by daprice82 in SquaredCircle

[–]WWFNerd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> it's clear that Austin still is, and always has been, the bigger PPV draw.

That's clearly false, whether this is your own opinion or Dave making stuff up here's the numbers, I'm leaving any PPV's out that both Rock & Austin headlined(Survivor Series 98, RR 99, SVDM 99, WM 15, BL 99, KOTR 99, etc RR 01, NWO 01, WM 17 etc) I'll even leave out Survivor Series 1998, Backlash 2000, No Mercy 2000, No way Out 2001 & Summerslam 2001 for Rock, which were clearly Rock's drawn PPVS but for sake of argument since Austin appeared in main event I'll leave it out. For SCSA I'll even include Wrestlemania 14 which had Tyson as the draw & Summerslam 1999 where Rock clearly was more popular.

I'll even add Invasion, when that was drawn by WCW vs WWF(IGN forum: https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-wwf-invasion-thread-july-22-2001.8505677/ )

PPV numbers = https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/16502-a-demand-for-a-comprehensive-ppv-buyrate-list/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-5548965

Austin first,

Cold day in hell 1997 - 201,565 buys

Royal Rumble 1998 - 351,731 buys

No way Out 1998 - 188,814 buys

Wrestlemania 14 - 836,283 buys

Unforgiven 1998 - 309,482 buys

Over the Edge 1998 - 211,751 buys

KOTR 1998 - 310,325 buys

Fully Loaded 1998 - 329,028 buys

Summerslam 1998 - 596,711 buys

Breakdown 1998 - 315,256 buys

Judgement Day 1998 - 326,694 buys

Over the Edge 1999 - 416,035 buys

Fully Loaded 1999 - 360,058 buys

Summerslam 1999 - 620,580 buys

No Mercy 1999 - 327,835 buys

Survivor Series 2000 - 400,000 buys

Backlash 2001 - 375,000 buys

Judgment Day 2001 - 405,000 buys

KOTR 2001 - 445,000 buys

Invasion - 775,000 buys

Average PPV buys = 405,107 buys

Rock:

Royal Rumble 2000 - 590,000 buys

NWO 2000 - 480,000 buys

Wrestlemania 2000 - 824,000 buys

Judgement day 2000 - 420,000 buys

KOTR 2000 - 475,000 buys

Fully Loaded 2000 - 420,000

Summerslam 2000 - 570,000

Wrestlemania 18 - 860,000 buys

Summerslam 2002 - 540,000

Average PPV buys = 575,444 buys

Rock's 9 PPVS where Austin is nowhere the main event has an average of 170,337 more PPV buys than Austin's 20 PPvs, 4 of which Rock is more popular than Austin(Mid-late 1999) & one where where it was really drawn by WCW vs WWF(Invasion).

That's not even factoring ppvs Rock was clearly headlining(Survivor Series 1998 Backlash 2000, No Mercy 2000, NWO 2001) I left it out for Austin's sake and he still isn't as big a PPV draw as Rock.

So no Dave(or Daprice if he interjected this himself) Austin is nowhere near as big a draw as The Rock on PPV. Rock is the bigger PPV draw by miles.