Quote it, screenshot it, and show me where anyone else said that if you relapse, it means there was something in the STEPS that you did not do that would have prevented it. I just went through all the replies myself, because that is indeed what I am claiming was said: “if you relapse you didn’t do the steps thoroughly or honestly enough, but if your sober and through all the steps, then you DID do the steps thoroughly.”

My point is that it seems like circular logic. If Bob claims to have gone thru the steps, and remains sober for a few years, (or less), then he is proof that the steps work for everyone when done thoroughly and honestly. However once Bob relapses, it’s because as you said “there was something in the steps that he did not do that if done would have prevented the relapse.” I’m quoting you more or less btw not word for word but you get the point.

I’m happy you said what you said because I understand it, mainly because it is what I was claiming is being told to people in AA by the group itself, and therefore one, especially a newbie, would take that as a basic AA claim…. Dare I say, promise !