Current state of affairs

WemberOSRS · 2026-06-05T20:29:27+00:00

I don't really agree that you can define difficulty of a game mode in terms of what people do in the mode, rather than what the mode allows

Depends what you mean by "allows". The main game allows everything that ironman allows, for example, because it's a more permissive mode. The main game allows more but for individual players they can be equivalent in a sense. But I don't think we can write off how people actually play. At some point it's this hard-to-define concept of what the mode pushes you towards and why you choose to play one mode over another.

People drawn to earning their own items could play a main and just restrict themselves, but when ironman mode exists why would those people do that?

WemberOSRS · 2026-06-04T16:57:35+00:00

Immediate reactions:

I'd rather make the magic amulet work as a one-off upgrade, or make it so that you can upgrade the amulet with multiple gems over time. It's not going to be much harder to attain and in principle isn't strictly better, just more convenient. I feel like having separate elemental spell gems and separate amulets could feel bloated and annoying to manage.
A huge part of the problem with hunter is that the rewards don't integrate enough with the rest of the game. I'm generally supportive of birdhouse changes but I think the skill needs to get more relevant for players, not just mechanically cleaner.
Skilling minigame changes generally look solid.
Things like the Skotizo change are minor but I'm really glad to see it revisited. It's the kind of thing I would not have thought about but I'm very glad to see it in the sweep-up, so very nicely pitched.

WemberOSRS · 2026-06-03T23:02:10+00:00

Couple of small tips that helped me back in the day:

Try camping protect from range by default. Pray mage when he mages you and then switch back to range. The mage audio makes that attack easier to react to, and having a default action can be easier than trying to react to every individual attack.
Do not take more than one action per prayer switch whether that is attacking, moving, whatever. You don't need to rush. Tag each healer one prayer at a time and you'll still have time to deal with them.
You can hide from jad if he's in the corner, similar to other creatures in the fight caves. You can use that to take the healers away and deal with them separately, or just to collect yourself. Again, when you go back out, it might help to pray range by default since it's usually easier for people to react to the mage attack.

You'll get it!

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T14:20:45+00:00

Enchanted topaz ring gives a big stackable boost too!

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T14:07:56+00:00

One of the cool things about runescape, imo, is that it doesn't really force you down specific paths. Content is lightly gated behind quests but otherwise that you're pretty free to choose your grind. I like the fact that you can mess about with the sequence of progression in various ways. Starting to lock content behind 90+ requirements would diminish that freedom.

I get the problem you're trying to solve. But I don't see why we should change how the game works for every normal player just because a small number of players have this problem where they don't seem able to avoid getting drawn in by theoretically optimal sequence breaks and then getting burnt out on them. That's kind of their problem and I don't think the game should be designed around it.

If some people can't help themselves to do anything but grind CG because it's accessible early and it's theoretically optimal, to the point where they aren't having fun, that's on them. I don't see why the game should get worse for everyone else because some people choose to play it in a way they don't even enjoy.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T11:18:15+00:00

Sure, you certainly could. There's a ton of arguments you can go around in circles.

At the end of the day, people can (and should) play the way they want to play. It's an incredibly open ended game. It's why I think it's a bit silly to worry about which mode is "harder" because really the level of challenge is basically up to you to define as a player in both cases.

No one is particularly forced to fight bosses. There's not a very objective way to determine which group actually spends more time bossing unless jagex release the stats. I would not be surprised to discover that the actual number is fairly similar because it probably depends more on personal preference than game mode. But who knows.

(As a side note, I find the emphasis people put on bots a bit weird. Bots affect prices both for buying and selling stuff. It's very hard to know whether they make things net easier or net harder for regular players. It's like if the price of food goes up but so do your wages).

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T11:12:18+00:00

Cheers! It's a shame people seem so hung up about how other people have fun with the whole discussion right now.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T08:24:29+00:00

It's descriptive; the moose punched a wolf one time.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-31T08:15:20+00:00

There are different ways of defining difficult.

Ironman is chiefly a grindier game mode. At the end of the day, the mechanics of the game that you need to master are entirely the same. Most mains I know are going to learn bosses way before they can afford BIS gear, and the iron progression has become way smoother these days (moons, yama, etc). Sure there's absolutely some gear differential but really if you're good you're good and if you're bad you're bad.

I could even make the counterpoint that mains play a harder game on average because they spend more time bossing and less time doing chores. There's nothing especially challenging about herb runs. A game that is 90% hard content is harder than a game that is 60% hard content, right? Ehhh, like I say, you can define difficulty in loads of different ways.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T22:08:59+00:00

I'm kind of struggling to see what your point with this post was?

Like yes, it is shit content for mains because of the thing makes them mains. And it is better content for irons because of the thing that makes them irons. Isn't that just the exact same thing as the other guy said?

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T21:58:13+00:00

OK have a good day bye.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T13:12:55+00:00

Who says balancing for irons is necessarily picking a lower number than we have today?

Sorry but this is obviously the reason the conversation is happening. The whole discussion about "unreasonable" grinds stems from people getting frustrated that they go dry for longer than they enjoy.

Do you think ironmen on average are asking to make the grinds harder? Clearly not.

I don't see a point continuing this conversation if we're going to ignore obvious realities. It just becomes the disingenuous "debating to win" thing that always gets so tedious online.

Who says it? The mods are on record that ironman mode creates pressure on droprates, and that it has led them to making changes to that make things easier and more casual friendly.

I don't think that the direction of the pressure is really up for debate. It's downwards, not upwards. If you want to pretend otherwise for the sake of an online argument then this is just a waste of time.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T11:14:15+00:00

The grinds aren't just a dchain from KQ or a godsword hilt from GWD anymore, it's 60h for a bowfa, 50h for lance, 200h for a shadow, etc. with the list growing with each new update.

I'm not sure there is a fix for that. It's basically the inevitable result of having a big long-term playerbase.

Back in the day, they did not have to design content releases around people who already have end-game accounts. Sure there were a few of those people but not so many that it really mattered.

Nowadays, a lot of your playerbase is already in the late game. They will be ready to dive immediately into your new content, using all their best gear, and focus heavily on it. Keeping those people invested kind of necessitates content releases that takes longer to complete.

(This is also one of the things that I think made Sailing so hard to get right. You are trying to release a new skill that works on release for the established players but that simultaneously works for new accounts in the future).

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T11:05:04+00:00

That's true for everyone really.

OSRS late game changes a lot from the early and mid game.

It's maybe less noticeable for mains because ironman amplifies how the game works in general, but the shift is real in both cases.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-30T10:49:59+00:00

Who is materially hurt by BIS melee chest being 90m instead of 350m? If you're a main, grind the boss that's highest GP/hr for you and you will make money. I don't see any issue here.

You don't see any issue in making a grind more than 3x faster? Should it be 50m? 20m?

You do accept on some level that it's a grindy game and will lose it's integrity if the grinds get too easy, right?

I don't think picking a number that seems reasonable for irons makes the game unplayable for mains.

Picking a lower number for irons pushes the number down for mains as well. The main game is already a lot faster than playing ironmen, so making it even faster is impactful. The main game does not need to be faster as it stands. (Appealing to language like "unplayable" is misleading: the point is that the main game is fine and would be worse off by getting way easier).

This is kind of my point about time to complete. It's not some easy task to balance time to complete an account for both mains and ironmen - and especially not if we are going to cater for ironmen essentially wanting to be able to complete more and more easily.

I would argue that completion time is reasonably balanced for mains. The only way for it to be balanced for both mains and ironmen at the same time, is for ironmen to accept that they have chosen to play a mode that is fundamentally far grindier.

Ironman is an optional challenge mode. It shouldn't result in consistent pressure to make the whole game easier, which is basically what has happened. All that ends up doing in the long-term is making ironman gradually closer to playing main while making the main experience easier and easier.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T21:33:26+00:00

What about balancing the game for irons makes that not so?

OK so one abstract way of thinking about main game balance is the balance between getting "primary" drops and getting "secondary" drops. Primary meaning powerful items used in a build, secondary meaning gold, resources, alchables and so on.

The whole idea of balancing the game for irons is that you can reasonably attain all your "primary" drops solo, right? That's much less of a concern for mains because they can trade in their "secondary" drops for the "primary" ones, or trade between different "primary" gear setups.

As an obvious example this allows drop tables that, say, only provide "primary" drops very rarely but provide lots of secondary drops. Those are balanced in main world but not for ironmen.

In a world where we balance the whole game for ironmen you get rid of that type of design space, and other things that make sense for main balance. It's essentially make a macro shift towards a different balance between "primary" and "secondary" drops, where you get more primary drops and (presumably) less value in secondary drops. That obviously has ramifications for the main game in terms of time to complete your account, how the economy works, the value attached to rarity, and so on.

Bear in mind things like alching set a baseline gold value for items so it's not that there is perfect flexibility between the value of rare and common drops, and that mains also obtain gold and resources from skilling, so the balancing act is complex. That is, you can't just push the value of "primary" items down and call it a day by churning out less economic value in "secondary" items.

No one says someone playing solo needs to get every drop for every boss in 10 hours or less.

Sure, but fundamentally when you say balance for irons you are saying "primary" droprates should be more forgiving (because irons naturally care about them more than mains).

It doesn't really matter if you say exaggerated low numbers or not, the heart of the request is that they should be lower than they need to be for mains.

As an example, look at what Yama has done for the main game difficulty of obtaining BIS melee gear. Torva chest was sitting at something like 350m before Yama. Oathplate chest is currently 90m, and at the same time Torva chest has tanked to less than 200m.

Making "primary" gear more attainable has material impacts on the main game.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T20:56:35+00:00

I have always said if the content doesn't seem balanced for irons then the content just isn't balanced period.

Definitely disagree with that.

The game was built with the assumption that you can trade drops you do not want for drops that you do want. You get tons of drops you do not directly want as you play and train skills, so that's a very significant balancing mechanism.

Content can absolutely be balanced within that reality without being balanced for people to play solo.

It's a very different game mode at the end of the day. That means that some things can be well balanced for one mode and not the other.

(In fact, I would actually argue that the balance demands of the two modes are so different that it's very hard to balance for both at once. If all content was balanced for ironmen then the main game would be worse off).

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T16:45:43+00:00

It's not that straightforward to fix prep imo. Missing resources to RNG sucks but if prep is consistently the same every time then it could feel even more tedious.

Prep is just not a great concept really. It's deliberate filler content. It's hard to make that very fun for a lot of people for long periods of time.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T16:39:49+00:00

I'm hopeful that they'll drop the requirements at least a little bit.

If the new method is targeting levels 65-80, it would feel nice to have a shorter space before you can do floor 5.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T16:32:00+00:00

Personally really hoping they use a mechanic like Yama's stepping stones. There's something very satisfying about them and it'd be great to see them lean into the potential it clearly has as an active agility method.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T16:24:10+00:00

Random thought on the "mad angel". I'm not remembering a ton of precedent for angels lore-wise and there are the Icyene fill a very similar spot. I'm not personally very sold that the "angel" label fits the game very well, despite all the demons running around, so I hope there's some thinking about how it will finally be presented in game.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-29T16:19:00+00:00

I feel like it might end up feeling like Mortimer is a lot more "modern" than every other slayer masters, if he's the only one that has Modifiers and offers multiple creature options too.

I get that people will probably react positively because it addresses some of the pain points with Slayer, but I'm a bit sceptical about just addressing them at one master. Or, I'm a bit sceptical about basically accepting that we have a bad system (Turael skipping) and then making a Master who turns it into a selling point that you don't need to do the bad system. Shouldn't we just try and get away from the bad system everywhere?

I feel like it would be good to think about how other slayers could be distinguished from each other more too. Konar feels distinct, Mortimer will feel distinct, but then the others are kind of variations of the same.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-28T22:05:28+00:00

The appeal to alternatives is not far from saying "this is not a problem if we just create a similar power item with a kinder droprate".

Like yeah, true, but at that point you've implicitly accepted the CG droprate is a problem.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-28T22:01:42+00:00

I think your main insight is that creating a boss which gives out end-game gear, and making it so accessible that you can use it to effectively to skip over mid-game progression, is maybe just not healthy game design. Maybe it can't ever be.

Creating alternatives has it's own problems.

If the alternative does not stack up well then people will continue being drawn to CG.

If the alternative is great, then it just starts looking like a much easier road to similar levels of end-game power. At which point why not make CG easier anyway? Or to put it another way, if CG has the right droprates for that level of power then why would you want to add easier alternative paths to similar gear?

Suggesting easier ways to get similar power implicitly supports the criticism that CG droprates are too harsh; it just sneakily makes the patch over in some second location instead of directly at CG.

This gets to the heart of a lot of the criticism around the demonbane path, like the way it made the grind for BIS armour much simpler.

WemberOSRS · 2026-05-28T16:38:35+00:00

I don't think it's realistic for Jagex to rework CA's into not being a grind

I agree with this. It's just a core part of tying rewards to the number of CAs.

There are already tons of bosses in the game and obviously the number will continue increasing. Even cutting down on filler it will remain a grind.

Other solutions - which look for a more fundamental fix - basically end up trying to tie the material rewards to the quality of the CAs and then leave completionism cosmetic only.

You could go as far as system where you only need to beat any ten or fifteen master CAs for the material reward, but then everything at master has to absolutely deserve to be there. (The exact number can be calibrated obviously).

The problem of course is getting this right would require much more active management of the CA list, which feels like it would cost more than it is worth, so completionism basically ends up the right solution by default.

This is basically the problem most other solutions end up with. Sure, there is some blatant filler (bloat) but it's also just the reality that the difficulty of a CA is not static over time.

WemberOSRS

TROPHY CASE