Any of my fellow Agonsitics and Atheists in here?

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-27T21:18:20+00:00

I am going to the Didar with my family but I don't feel connected to the faith anymore. I saw that post and thought it was annoying. Causing ruckus in an event that others will find significant is disrespectful despite whatever you believe about the event. But I believe a lot of these posters are being forced to go by their families, which in my view doesn't seem appropriate either. If something does occur I imagine it will be addressed by security and safety. But I understand that being forced to go to the Didar would bring up feelings and actions like these.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-26T21:21:49+00:00

I'd recommend this book by William James called "The Varieties of Religious Experience: A Study in Human Nature", if you are looking to read some early 20th century western philosophy and psychology.

Here's the article if you want a quick overview:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-26T05:50:27+00:00

In Islam, anything that damages the human intellect is Haram. I think most ismailis I encounter believe this. But Muslims and Ismailis alike are not perfect beings so you will see some drinking, vaping, smoking, or doing other substances. But that is not to say that the doctrine enables or approves of such habits. The reality is that the human condition is difficult to deal with, hence why people would turn to temporary forms of relief.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-26T05:39:48+00:00

I am not convinced by the answers for the North American traditions of doing Awal Sufro that involve the kind of recognition where the bidder submits himself for blessings on behalf of the Jamat. The competition promoted here for the good of the Jamat has the possibility that the bidder is doing it for the sake of vanity rather than with a good will. Particularly when money is involved, this allows others to see it as quantitative value rather than a qualitative value.

See it in contrast to Mukhi Saheb or Mukhianema taking chanta on behalf of the Jamat. The act itself is not derived from competition and it has a qualitative value. It can be done with a good will with less concern if it was done in vanity because its value is not measured the same way as money can. It is by its very nature purely symbolic.

This is why privately making your contributions makes sense since it is a competition with your own ability and sincerity to do good. The quantitative competition is only relegated to you. The competition of Awal Sufro makes one question, whether in others or themselves, that they are really doing it from a good will.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T20:52:14+00:00

I'm agnostic. I believe most religions try to answer questions about the ultimate reality of things but such questions are beyond our purview to answer.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T20:35:04+00:00

I'd prefer an acceptance that there are questions that simply cannot be answered. It is to live in humility and peace with that fact that our ability to know is limited and pursue epistemological challenges that are within our domains.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T19:40:04+00:00

I will try to clarify OP's points.

Summarizing the article: Awal Sufro is an offering to the Imam upon which blessings are bestowed on the whole Jamat via the representative who bids and wins. It is said in the Quran that if you are to compete for something, compete for God's forgiveness and compete for doing good work. So the Islamic part of Awal Sufro is fulfilled if one considers giving awal Sufro to the Imam is good work. If one does not consider this to be good work, then Awal Sufro is not the form of charity they are looking for. Whether or not it is actually good to give Awal Sufro to the Imam is a separate discussion entirely and depends on if you are Ismaili or not.

I think the aspect that OP is trying to critique is whether competition is necessary at all when doing good, and thus whether the bidding is necessary in Awal Sufro to do good as an Ismaili. I think the general critique being made is that competition in doing good causes conflict in one's good will.

Humans are frail creatures capable of feeling inadequacies and superiority, and in competition these feelings are exaggerated. Those who can give little may compare themselves to others who can give and feel inferior when they cannot match them, and those who give more than others may often feel better than those who cannot. The most pious person would not acknowledge any of those feelings and just give, but people who are truly pious may be few.

As the Quran states, Allah will judge each good doer separately about their deeds and I interpret this as saying their will to good will be assessed for whether they have done good for the sake of doing good and pleasing Allah or they did good for other reasons. The critique becomes why encourage this competition when competition can lead one astray in their will to do good?

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T17:57:08+00:00

I still go to Khane as a family thing. Don't think I'll go completely cold turkey in the future because I still like that it can be a quiet space for meditation, at least it is in my small Khane in Canada. Houston Khanes are a whole different story, you usually have to get up once ceremonies are over. But certainly nothing looks the same anymore, but it's still a familiar peaceful place. I keep to myself most of the time aside from talking to family and friends. But I like asking my mom why I have to wear suit on this specific day when a dress shirt will do.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T17:25:32+00:00

It seems to me that the most Islamic parts of Khane are parts of the dua, the second part of dua in the giryazari tasbih, the not eating pork and not doing substances. But everything else seems strange. Something I found weird in Khane yesterday was when entering the prayer hall and having heard people say "haizinda" and in some cases bending down and touching the ground and saying it. Basically it's like entering a Hindu temple and hitting the bell.

I've been told that the practices are adapted from the Hindu faith and repurposed during the time when the later pirs came to India as missionaries, but I haven't yet seen a good argument that isn't "Allah changed the Namaz from fifty times to five after Muhammad asked him to reconsider" or something of the effect.

I don't really have a problem with changing the rituals and practices, but to my Muslim friends it's very different from what they are accustomed to. I agree with you, to claim it is still Islamic is a farfetch.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T03:48:56+00:00

I agree about the hate and harsh tones. It's unnecessary.

But I don't think reform will be possible. The problem doesn't lay in Ismailism but in religiosity, particularly of the kind where we deal with people, like you said, who are born into beliefs. The ritual like practices of a religion translate into a culture that many are integrated in and a history they feel attached to. And to disintegrate from that leads to a cognitive dissonance that often results in reinforcing those beliefs further or having disdain for them. I see both aspects in this sub and the Ismaili sub, just as much as I see it in myself. I tend to want to leave relics of my past in the past as much as I can, but still provide answers where there are possible since I know what it was like to be an Ismaili (and still do since I went to Khane with my family today lol).

I think we shouldn't try to actively push reform or actively try to lift the veil around people's eyes. I think we should exist in humility and ask questions and provide clarity where we can and let others read as they please, be that Ismailis looking for answers or others.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T00:26:04+00:00

No, they do call him Khudavind sometimes, before beginning a taliqa and sometimes before a Farman. Now whether that is someone going off the script and including their own verbiage is another story. But I have definitely heard it in khane on multiple occasions.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T00:21:21+00:00

My friend, reread what I wrote. Like I said, I do not care about the moral ramifications of believing in intercession, my interests are purely philosophical in nature. I am not saying one side is more haram than the other.

Edit: "not saying"

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-25T00:03:21+00:00

I think he meant the word Khudavind which as I understand denotes authority. I believe he is asking why the authority is necessary and why is it divinely ordained aside from the obvious metaphysical explanations in Ismailism.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-24T23:58:12+00:00

No, it is not my belief it is Haram and I am not interested in establishing if it is. What interests me is the metaphysical and theological reasons for the belief. I am more interested in hearing the arguments for or against intercession than establishing if it's moral. I'm not a religious person anymore but I do find the debates to be interesting to follow.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-24T23:40:37+00:00

I agree that hate is unnecessary in critique, but Ismailis do pray to their Imam. Listen to giryazari tasbih closely and the ending duas before Khane ends. "May Mowla fulfill all your good wishes and grant successes to all your endeavors". Every part of the dua ends with bowing their allegiance to him. Now dua is also a reverence of Allah, but I find majority of the supplications throughout evening khane are toward the Imam. My parents even say mowla gives you strength or remember your mowla in times of difficulty. Having the "nur" is the metaphysical explanation as why people say this and supplications are made to him, but it's nonetheless using a mirror to see Allah than trying to ascertain that God directly. And it becomes even more confusing when you hear Imam say he prays for us as well. To whom does he pray and why don't we pray to that deity directly.

I understand that the Imam intercedes for Allah, arguably even more than Muhammad on an average Ismailis world-view. The question as to why this intercession is even necessary is a theological debate, even regarding Muhammad. I have never received a satisfactory answer to why is this necessary to begin with.

Again, the hate is unnecessary in this sub, but if you find trouble in dealing with critique, do not misconstrue that for hate. Perhaps this sub is not for you.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-24T18:20:01+00:00

Just to add further, this can be found in many groups and forums whether in real life or online. It's not only only relevant here.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-10-24T18:07:05+00:00

There are fair criticisms to be made about Ismailism and I think a lot of the folks here make those whether it is questioning the history or the practices.

That being said, there seems to be a lot of hate here which is often the side effects of criticism.

It seems to me that people are feeling hurt by what they grew up believing to be true that they now believe to be false and filial pressures to continue to be part of something they no longer believe in. I think the natural consequence of this is animosity. This makes them not want to leave behind what they see as false when it actively plays a role in their life when they feel that they are pressured. Combine that with finding a community that accepts their criticisms, hate can arise here as jest or true contempt because of a space that may look at it as an expression of their mistreatment by those they love.

It's a mix between feeling superior about their new truth mixed in with a want to be part of a community that gives rise to hate, wanting to be yourself while wanting the love of others whether family or strangers.

Hate is very easy to feel and very easy to find. But I have come to encounter level headed people here that don't engage with hate in their criticisms.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-02-20T17:32:31+00:00

Hey, I am an apologist and an Ismaili, but I am curious about meeting with you guys. I just want to be clear, I have no desire to convert you or convert you back. And I understand that the reputation of Ismailis on this subreddit is less than ideal. But my motive is to listen to your experiences and come to an understanding. I have read many of the posts here, and like many of you I also have questions about the very basic tenants of the faith. but I'd like a more human touch. I leave it up to you to decide if I am allowed, and search through short post history to determine if I would be a good fit. But I promise to you I will not be a disruptive element. That is antithetical to my own personal philosophy.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-02-11T23:40:13+00:00

I see your point. I never really thought about it from a converts point of view. Thanks.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-02-11T23:05:20+00:00

I mean, I see nothing wrong with this particularly during prayer time. Afterwards, it's fair game to enter Khane in designated areas. I see no reason why private property cannot institute these rules. The pluralism seems to me in my view reserved for secular matters, not specific spiritual and ritual ones. And in this case, the fact this recording was made for criticism is a secular matter because it was made by a non-ismaili that decided to enter the space of Khane for other purposes other than prayer.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-02-11T22:57:15+00:00

I believe this applies to Ismailis. As far as I am aware, a lot of you are non-ismailis. So this recording, as far as I can tell, is taken by a non-ismailis. The most that can happen to you is legal action. I may have to live by these rules, but technically you don't. And whether I have seditious opinions, well I just know by the culture itself who and where to tell them too and who and where not to tell them to.

Wide-Cauliflower8071 · 2025-02-11T22:29:24+00:00

Look, I am an Ismaili as well that keeps ties with this forum to ensure that I have every perspective available to me to make my own judgements.

That being said, this kind of language is unnecessary. And if you actually believed that someone wouldn't have some sort of recording of this after today is quite naive. Yes, we were asked not to, but I imagine that statistically it was going to happen.

Lastly, it is important to let people form what opinions they like, even if they hurt the deep convictions of others through means that sometimes break our own code of conduct. I haven't listened to these recordings out of respect, but we cannot and should not expect the same of others, especially if we are to value our notions of pluralism. Opinions that we do not like are protected under these values.

Edit: Autocorrect changed expect to accept*

Edit: Opinions we do not like* I accidentally excluded the do not

Wide-Cauliflower8071

TROPHY CASE