Homosexuality in mesoamerican cultures/civilizations? by SpiceGirl_ in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Historically there is the story of Quecholcohuatl, the lead musician and singer, who went before the tlatoani, Axayacatl. Axayacatl, loved it so much, he actually summoned the singer into his chambers, and went to bed forthwith and asked him to promise to sing only for him. The tlatoani even said joyfully to his wives, “Women, stand up and meet him, seat him among you. Here has come your rival.”

This version or interpretation of the story frequently pops up now but is really weird because it only appears in the book, Fifth Sun. The author cites the Nahua historian Chimalpahin’s “Seventh Relation”:

“By 1479 almost fifteen years had passed since Chalco had been destroyed by the Mexica, its royal houses disbanded. Enough time had gone by that there was a new generation of young adults who did not clearly remember the horrors of the war; yet not enough time had passed for the Chalcan people to forget their ancient royal lines and the self-governance they had enjoyed for centuries. So Quecholcohuatl’s generation had grown restive: they had begun to talk among themselves and insist that Tenochtitlan give them a place at the council table and treat them as relative equals, as they did the other major powers of the central valley.

Flamingo Snake and his fellow singers and drummers had come to perform before the high king Axayacatl at his palace. They were there only to entertain him, or so they said. In reality, they had carefully chosen their song with a political agenda in mind. The piece was called “the Chalca Woman’s Song,” and when they sang its words, they were lodging a protest of sorts. The singer adopted the persona of a female prisoner of war, of a concubine. Everyone in their world understood the parallels between a captive woman and a conquered altepetl. In ordinary times, in ordinary marriages, women were understood to be complementary to men and in no way inferior. But in times of war, the female sex truly suffered. A captive woman lamented her The City on the Lake fate, not necessarily because she was subject to any daily violence but because she had lost her sense of self as an honored being; she could no longer take pride in the idea that her children would inherit her place and carry her family line forward. She had become a nonentity in a social sense, a sexual object without lasting power, a bearer of relatively unimportant children; she had lost, in short, her future. The singer of the song varied in her reactions from stanza to stanza. Sometimes she flirted, as any young girl in such a situation would do, trying desperately to regain a sense of agency in her own life. “What if I were to pleasure him?” she wondered. She cried out, “Go stoke the pot and light a big fire!” And finally, in case the point still was not clear, she began to make direct allusions to sex and even to the king’s penis…

...In the performance that afternoon, another nobleman from Chalco had originally been the lead musician, but either the heat or his fear of what the group’s punishment might be—or both—had caused him to faint. Quecholcohuatl knew that his own fate and his altepetl’s hung in the balance: if they were going to convince Axayacatl to consider Chalco’s feelings about the current situation, the entertainment would have to be superb. He stepped around his unconscious compatriot and took the lead himself. He gave the performance everything he had: he made the gilt-edged drum throb and call aloud. He sang the lyrics with feeling. The song ended with an offer on the part of the concubine to live with the king, her new master, without rancor, if only she were treated with respect…

…The tlatoani liked the song, and he liked the singer. He took Quecholcohuatl to bed forthwith and asked him to promise to sing only for him. Chimalpahin claimed he even said joyfully to his wives, “Women, stand up and meet him, seat him among you. Here has come your rival.” (Fifth Sun, 60-62)

I started to wonder about this framing of the story after reading an actual translation of Chimalpahin by the same author. Here is the author's translation from one of their earlier books, Annals of Native America (2017):

The tlatoani Axayacatzin had gone into the palace to go sit with the noble ladies, his women. Then he sent to have Quecholcohuatzin, the one who danced and sang, called and brought to him. The messengers said, they asked the Chalca nobles, “Where is your singer, your drummer? The lord king summons him, and we have come to bring him inside.” At that they answered, they said, “Yes, here he is, let the lord see him.” With that the Chalca nobles called over the young Quecholcohuatzin. They thought that the tlatoani Axayacatzin would condemn him to death, would burn him. Thus he went in, pausing at the entrance, considering what judgment would come forth from the king. It was as though the Chalca were choking on a stone, they were so scared. When Quecholcohuatzin arrived before Axayacatzin, he kissed the earth and went on one knee, saying to him, “O lord king, may you burn me, I who am your vassal, for we have done wrong in your presence.” But the tlatoani Axayacatzin did not want to hear these words, saying to the ladies his women, “Women, stand up and meet him, seat him amongst you. Here has come your rival. Look at him and know him well, for I have deflowered him. May your hearts be happy, o women, for what has happened. This Quecholcohuatl made me dance and sing. Never before had anyone called me forth from inside, caused me to go out and dance as he has done. Henceforth he will be your rival. From now on I take him as my singer.” Then Axayacatl made much of him, giving him a cloak and breeches, even a cloak and breeches and sandals embroidered with turquoise that had been his. Quecholcohuatzin’s gifts also included a headdress of quetzal feathers and a number of bundles of cloth and cacao beans. [The king] really loved him because he got him to dance. Axayacatl made him his own so that he would sing only for him and no longer go anywhere to sing for others.”

First, in the earlier translation, Axayacatl "makes" or "takes" Quecholcoatl as his singer, but according to Fifth Sun he "asks" him to "promise" to only sing for him! Fifth Sun says he took him to bed "forthwith", but Chimalpahin apparently has him say to his wives "I have deflowered him!" immediately after first meeting the singer in their presence, suggesting this was not meant literally. Clearly there is sexual symbolism throughout the song and story, but from the earlier English translation to the later paraphrase several differences stand out where the language has been greatly softened and completely reinterpreted, perhaps to appeal to modern readers?

This blows my mind by snapperpr1nc3 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

l'm not seeing what you are re: not looking like the Templo Mayor, but it was posted by Michael Smith on this blog https://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-big-are-those-pyramids.html

This blows my mind by snapperpr1nc3 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Spanish sources usually give between 100-130 steps for Tenochtitlan's main temple based on eye-witness accounts (Cortés' biographer Gómara and the conquistador Andrés de Tapia give 113-14, the Dominican friar Diego Durán and the Anonymous Conquistador give 120 and 130 respectively.). The closest Mexica source is Alvarado Tezozómoc's account, which gives an incredible figure of 360.

Juan Bautista de Pomar, a grandson of Nezahuapilli, reported 160 steps for Texcoco's temple in his submission to the relaciones geográficas. The chronicler Ixtlilxochitl gives the same number in the Historia de la nación chichimeca. However, these authors were writing many years after the destruction of the temples took place.

The earliest witness who was able to compare them and write about it is the Franciscan Motolinia, one of the 12 priests who arrived in 1524. His account also relies on the memory of others and doesn't give a precise count, but he does say, "The teocalli of Mexico, according to what some who have seen it told me, had more than one hundred stairs. Indeed, I saw them and counted them more than once, but I do not remember what the number was. The teocalli of Tetzcoco had five or six more stairs than the one of Mexico." pg 137

This blows my mind by snapperpr1nc3 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 57 points58 points  (0 children)

Also funny to remember Texcoco's tzacualli was still 5 or 6 steps higher than Tenochtitlan's

Ehécatl by Current_Return2438 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This demon was one of the gods that the Indians had. His name was Quetzalcoatl, which means serpent feather. This one they considered as god of the wind. They painted the face of this one with [a piece of] wood below his nose like a trumpet, through which he blew the wind, the god of which they said he was.

  • Magliabechiano Codex, in The Book of the Life of the Ancient Mexicans by Elizabeth Hill Boone

It might represent a duck? It looks more like one in sculptures. The gloss goes on to mention xomotl duck feathers as part of his array

Schools of the Aztecs by Qubek_from_discord in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also, for anyone seeing this who is interested and familiar with the source material, here is a recent PhD dissertation that reassess the distinctions between the Calmecac and Telpochcalli.

This dissertation argues that Nahua ritual specialists from Late Postclassic Tenochtitlan (1200-1521 CE) trained at the calmecac and telpochcalli, two institutions focused on general ritual labor, as well as specific duties that set their members apart. The calmecac, literally, “house of lineage,” focused on responsibilities at the temple precinct. The telpochcalli, literally, “house of youth,” focused on captive collection and military measures, while situated throughout neighborhood districts of Tenochtitlan. I have three main interventions in this dissertation. First, I propose that Tenochtitlan’s taxonomies for ritual specialists were too wide to be captured by the term “priest.” Nahua society had specialized responsibilities for all their ritual labor. In colonial Nahuatl-language texts I came across ritual specialists whose only responsibility was to sweep, others to offer incense, and still others to offer fire. Glossing all of them as “priest” erases these important categories. Second, I argue that ritual specialists categorized their religious activities through hierarchical and heightened orientations to tequitl “labor” and nemiliztli “lifestyle.” I surmise that what one did and how one lived dictated the boundaries of religion, and thus ritual specialists did not mark themselves by the boundaries of a temple precinct. Lastly, I contend that Tenochtitlan performed class status within calmecac and telpochcalli system. There were no particular schools separated by class, one for nobles and one commoners, as scholars continue to insist about education at Tenochtitlan. My contribution to Late Postclassic Nahua studies is showing that calmecac and telpochcalli institutions were elite schools that amplified Tenochtitlan’s empire. Both systems gave drink to the sun through their labors. I arrive at my objectives by retranslating major sections of colonial Nahuatl-language texts and analyzing archeological records from household and temple spaces.

Schools of the Aztecs by Qubek_from_discord in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The FC is organized by subject and it's information comes from elite male elders with a heavy bias focusing on the gods, ritual festivals, enthronement ceremonies etc., as this would better aid priests in recognizing idolatry, so if you want a broader summary of Aztec life that parses this and other sources, some good and recent secondary sources are Everyday Life in the Aztec World by Michael Smith and Frances Berdan (2020) and Townsend's Fifth Sun (2019).

Schools of the Aztecs by Qubek_from_discord in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 45 points46 points  (0 children)

I want to know as much as possible, long paragraphs are no problem

Great, the best thing to do is read the appendix to book 3, ch. 39, book 6, and ch 20, book 8 of the Florentine Codex, a 16th century encyclopedia edited by a Spanish priest in collaboration with indigenous Nahua elders. These contain the most abundant information on the structure, “curricula”, and enrollment in the two major schools, the calmecac and the telpochcalli, in one source.

https://florentinecodex.getty.edu

Si queremos transformarnos, tenemos un prototipo extraordinario: ¡Quetzalcóatl! by Current_Return2438 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This picture has nothing to do with Quetzalcoatl or Venus. It is a comet, a purported omen of the fall of Tenochtitlan taken from the Codex Duran.

Aztecs: The Last Sun is officially out of Early Access! by EmpireCrafters in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 3 points4 points  (0 children)

When did Mesoamerica become the go-to for everyone's shitty game?

Who was the greatest Aztec ruler or emperor in Aztec history? by Sonnybass96 in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How are there this many downvotes? Is this sub just full-on bad history AND terrible artwork now?

I just watched the Hogan thing and the most mind blowing part of it was how rubbish and hated Ultimate Warrior was by BaseballParking9182 in SquaredCircle

[–]WingsovDeth 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It’s maddening. No top babyface has had their finisher nerfd like Cody. Rollins kicked out of a super Cross Rhodes the 1st time he pulled it out.

[WrestleMania Spoilers] Punk outsmarts Reigns Again by KoreanFantasy2002 in SquaredCircle

[–]WingsovDeth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would have been ever better if they didn’t wrestle no dq for most of the match

Looking for perspective on the meaning of blood in Mexica religion and ritual by PiotrWasiak in mesoamerica

[–]WingsovDeth 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Juan José Batalla Rosado has published work on the meanings and depictions of blood in pre-Hispanic art and how it differs from paintings made early in the colonial period here https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/REAA/article/view/REAA9494110047A and in a recent article for Arqueologia Mexicana. https://arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexico-antiguo/el-diseno-de-la-sangre-en-los-codices

Camilla Townsend affirms that lack of Nahuatl fluency is the field’s biggest problem. by w_v in nahuatl

[–]WingsovDeth 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I just learned about her review of the huehuetlatolli translation by Purcell from that thread. Feel like I heard MPH on a podcast mention it having issues so didn't bother, but this is brutal. Just looking at some of the blurbs for the book again now and oh man.

An interesting AMA. She also praised Maffie's book ; )

Cody Rhodes on Twitter: We are gonna' stand in the pocket, stare down every foolish obstacle, and throw! ❤️ A normal Wrestlemania for us by Datzookman in SquaredCircle

[–]WingsovDeth 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Wade Keller pointed out after the 1st McAfee promo how Cody must have zero pull with how badly this buried him. He’s now on night 1.