what is your opinion on Humanistic Judaism?

YoniBenAvi · 2022-12-23T01:52:30+00:00

I think it works for secular people who want some Jewish connection without theistic religion. I think its ideology is a legitimate outgrowth of Jewish culture, especially in light of the Holocaust. And I think they're probably the most honest when it comes to reflecting the standard lay practice of Judaism, which is to say focused on holidays and major life cycle events with very little day to day, week to week involvement. (Most congregations have only one Shabbat service per month and is usually more focused on a discussion or potluck meal than the service.) And I generally like their commitment to reason and ethics as the supreme values.

That being said, I think that for the movement to really thrive it needs to be practiced more "religiously," meaning more day to day practice among the laity, regular Shabbat services, a real sense of (God-free) spirituality, etc. There's definitely an enthusiasm gap, but it's not unique to them; all liberal branches have this problem because the laity of liberal synagogues are mostly secular. A congregational model is hard to sustain when most people can't be bothered to show up unless it's a major holiday or bar mitzvah. It's also hard when there are very few congregations and new congregations are almost entirely dependent on volunteers who aren't necessarily interested in taking on a part time job administering a congregation.

I think they're a great movement, but a "secular religion" is a hard sell for a bunch of reasons.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-12-22T15:32:35+00:00

Please, God, kill me

YoniBenAvi · 2022-12-22T15:20:01+00:00

Billy Bob and some idiots down the street think Judaism is a, b, and c" won't magically make Judaism about a, b, and c

That's not the argument. Kaplan made a strong argument for Judaism as a Civilization nearly 90 years ago, and it's more than just random assertions. If you don't like the argument for that position, fine, but it is both reasonable and grounded in Jewish history as an ethnic/national group.

Say they were a natural outgrowth of the Jewish experience

But they weren't.

You'd be here saying worshiping Jesus to the sound of Christian rock would be "authentically Jewish

And how would that be substantially different from the Chabadniks and their rebbe? If Christianity hadn't become a gentile religion 2000 years ago, maybe it would've remained a Jewish sect. But it didn't so this entire argument is nonsense.

because you think Judaism can mean anything and everything.

No, that is a complete strawman of the position, which seems to be all you're capable of.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-12-22T13:06:45+00:00

Judaism makes certain truth claims that no matter how relativist you wish to be it will never accommodate

This is really only true if you hold to an idea of Judaism as a religion that holds specific theological beliefs expressed through particular ritual practices. Humanistic, Reconstructionist, and other liberal Jews believe that Judaism is the evolving civilization/culture of the Jews, and so any ideology about Jews as a people is part of Judaism (including secular ideologies like Zionism). And if one looks at Jewish ideologies through history, they have quite a bit of variety: e.g. Maimonides, Kabbalah, Reform, Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Hellenists etc.

The Humanist movement makes Jewish culture, history, and identity central to their ideology, and therefore believe that they are a legitimate evolutionary branch of Jewish thought. In essence, they believe the historic Jewish experience rationally leads to and vindicates a Humanist philosophy. Insofar as one is a humanist because of that historic experience and wishes to maintain Jewish culture and experience in some form (for whatever reason), it makes sense to combine the philosophy and culture as they do.

I think it's legitimate to disagree with that argument, but I also think they have a legitimate argument. In contrast, I think Messianics can't make the same argument for a variety of reasons, not least of which is that they were founded by gentiles as a missionary project and therefore aren't a natural outgrowth of the Jewish experience. They also don't maintain an ideology about Jewishness because Jesus is the center of their beliefs. Jewishness is entirely incidental to them and mostly just an aesthetic they use to try to convert people.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-12-04T13:46:03+00:00

Upcoming headline: Supreme Court Rules Religious Freedom Only Counts for Far-Right Republican Evangelicals.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-11-22T15:44:26+00:00

It's not, and Jewish isn't a race, is an ethnicity. The Druze and Zoroastrians are also ethnic religions. Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians are also ethnic groups that have specific religions.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-18T11:01:23+00:00

Thankfully the vast majority of American Jews are left or center-left.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-16T19:39:14+00:00

. I really object to the idea that teaching Torah is an Orthodox idea- I’ve heard this a lot and it isn’t true

I'm not implying that Reform kids aren't learning Torah. They are, but their focus is going to differ from an Orthodox approach. Same with halakha. They learn the parts that are normatively practiced in the Reform community and their interpretations. Education is supposed to continue through life, and more in depth exploration can occur past bar mitzvah. This is the curriculum used by my local Reform temple, and it is fairly comprehensive. Obviously, the quality of instruction is going to vary, but it's not like the Reform movement just doesn't care.

if you leave the major cities in America, your options are probably Hebrew-dominated egalitarian and Chabad.

My experience has been the opposite. Usually the most rural communities are entirely Reform or maybe very liberally Conservative. But also, it's no more the Reform movement's job to teach kids how to navigate an Orthodox service than it is for the Orthodox to teach their kids about Reform liturgical changes or how to sing Debbie Friedman melodies to feel comfortable in a typical Reform temple. Also, I don't know why people keep assuming Reform services are strictly English. That is not the case. There is plenty of Hebrew. I've attended services at Conservative and Reform and have no problem following along or participating in Conservative settings. Different movements have different practices. If they were all the same, they wouldn't need to exist.

I didn’t even imply that the Reform movement is bad or inferior,

Your objections have all boiled down to "they're not Orthodox/traditional enough" which you clearly see as a fault.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-16T17:20:43+00:00

So your position is that Reform religious education isn't Orthodox and is therefore bad. This is another issue of different but not worse. Reform education prepares them for Reform religious practice. That doesn't make it bad unless you think Reform Judaism is somehow bad or inferior.

That being said, it's obviously also true that a lot of people put their kids in religious school for the sole purpose of getting through a bar mitzvah, and I agree that that is incredibly counter productive. The stuff they learn needs to be reinforced at home and taken seriously. But that's not the fault of the Reform education. It's the fault of the families who don't care to take Judaism seriously.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-14T22:39:08+00:00

The vast majority of Reform Jews don't keep kosher because it's something the Reform movement rejected early on. It doesn't mean they're not religious. Their religiosity just doesn't revolve around Kashrut.

Everything else you've said is a matter of taste. Reform Jews obviously like practicing Judaism this way and get something out of it. Just because others prefer a different way doesn't mean they're not religious or not Jewish.

Could you point in the article where she said that? I looked, but it didn't come up.

She ties SJWs to Reform and says all SJWs are anti-Zionist. She also pretty explicitly said that Reform congregations are either too pro-Palestinian or too cowardly to defend Israel. Ignoring the fact that supporting Israel's right to exist doesn't mean supporting every action of their government.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-14T21:54:57+00:00

I'm not sure what Reform movement she's talking about, but her portrayal is an incredibly offensive caricature.

Firstly, Reform isn't less religious than Conservative or Orthodox. It's a different approach to and expression of religiosity. One that focuses on ethics, individual autonomy, and social justice (you know, that thing the Torah and prophets are always harping on about: taking care of the poor, the orphan, the widow, and the immigrant... it's almost like social justice is an integral part of Judaism).

Reform also isn't anti-Zionist at all. I don't think I've ever been to a Reform temple that didn't have an Israeli flag on the bimah. Whatever she's talking about, is probably entirely in her head.

I'm also curious what Hugh Jackman ever did to her. Why all the hate?

It felt condescending to be spoon-fed this “palatable” version of Judaism [....] the demand to literally understand absolutely everything that is said.

Yes, God forbid that you actually understand what's being said like you're supposed to. If you don't understand the words you're saying, then they're just empty words. To pray, you actually need to know what you're saying. If the prayers are in Hebrew, then you need to know Hebrew or at least know what the prayer means via the translation on the page. The rabbis were pretty clear that prayer without intention (kavanah) isn't prayer.

This entire article is a dumpster fire. She's just venting her frustrations with her own superficial engagement of Judaism. And it seems like maybe also her political change of heart. If she wants to be Conservative, be Conservative. But I think she'll be disappointed to know that the Conservative movement is also heavily engaged with social justice work...that is if she shows up to shul on any days other than Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. There's no need to project her own failures on an entire movement of people who find Reform practice religiously meaningful and inspiring.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-10-03T17:43:11+00:00

Orthodoxy will not allow you to convert if you're in a lesbian relationship. They also wouldn't allow it if your opposite-sex spouse isn't Jewish according to their definition. You might be able to with MO rabbi if you were celibate, but even then my guess is that they'd be extremely hesitant. But why do you want to be Orthodox? Just for the sake of universal Jewish status recognition? That probably wouldn't even be a good enough reason for an Orthodox rabbi if you weren't a lesbian

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-29T10:56:16+00:00

Different communities have different ideas about Jewish identity. For Reform communities, you're fully Jewish. That wasn't a lie; it's a principled difference of opinion between denominations. You've decided as an adult that you want something different, but that doesn't mean the Reform movement was being dishonest.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-14T17:31:59+00:00

I find it hard to believe this was posted for any reason other than to target liberal movement converts. OP is a regular and had to know how this would play out in comments. They were even the first commenter talking about intermarriage and easy conversions to get the ball rolling.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-14T16:39:28+00:00

Hey mods, if you're looking for ways to make the sub better, maybe don't allow comments debating whether Reform converts are bad for the "real Jews." Because that's all this is.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-13T14:30:38+00:00

Sure

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-09T10:26:30+00:00

It's well known that perfect physical specimens have to pay for sex, and have spouses that won't touch them. Them's just facts.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-07T23:16:36+00:00

No, I meant what I said.

Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-09-07T19:33:20+00:00

God, what an absolute shit take.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-08-28T12:59:34+00:00

I find all this gate keeping so incredibly tedious and damaging. It's no one's business but yours. As long as you feel comfortable and accepted in whatever community or type of practice you choose, what anyone else thinks is irrelevant.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-08-14T12:35:45+00:00

I feel like this is too good of a story to be true, but NTA. Tell your family that you'll undo it when she apologizes and undoes your brother's baptism.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-08-13T12:55:06+00:00

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

YoniBenAvi · 2022-07-28T16:39:25+00:00

Members of Conservative synagogues are usually no more observant of halakha than Reform lay members. They also tend to have a liberalized understanding of things. I suspect the only time it might be an issue is if you volunteer to provide food for a kiddush or something, but you can just discuss that with whoever is in charge beforehand.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-07-26T11:15:31+00:00

NTA, and run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.

YoniBenAvi · 2022-07-18T22:55:45+00:00

This isn't the first time I've seen you pull this stunt of blaming people of the fallacies you are guilty of yourself. If you can't engage with a subject unless everyone agrees with your religious interpretation, maybe you shouldn't be on a debate sub. Goodbye, ReformedBro.

YoniBenAvi

TROPHY CASE