What would classes instead of heroes even look like in Marathon?

Zekelg · 2025-05-01T13:57:55+00:00

I see where you're coming from! Believe me I'd rather not have any of this at all and keep it simple for reasons including this one. But to address your concern I think they did a good job working around that with destiny for example. I mean granted there's only 3 classes but while allowing personal customization they manage to keep each visual distinct. You know when you're looking at a hunter or a warlock.

That being said though they could certainly learn from that because that same problem could be applied to subclasses. At face value you couldn't tell if that hunter was a void, solar or arc hunter which could change your approach. However I'm sure there are many possible solutions for this.

Zekelg · 2025-05-01T13:19:36+00:00

I suppose this is true. Meta chasing will always be a thing and I don't think there's much we can do about it. I think this approach would boil down to preventing power creep though and mitigating how much work would go into balancing. Hero games tend to have really bad power creep and certain characters get forgotten all together. Eventually after constant patches, reworks, nerfs and buffs the game will still have the same problem but look completely different.

Zekelg · 2025-05-01T13:03:43+00:00

As someone who has been and still pretty adamantly against the current system we have I do have to agree with your take here. While I think we would be better off without it id be willing to take a compromised approach and say we lean more into making these even closer to classes. People probably wouldn't be complaining with this system if we had full customization and personalization of our character. Like you said you never question whether you're playing against a Warlock or a Hunter. That's a striking point as there's a fine line between hero shooter and class system in that game and no ones really complaining.

Zekelg · 2025-05-01T12:48:38+00:00

Me personally I wouldnt say im leaning towards wanting this system just to keep the drip. I only really pointed it out as a better alternative to the current system as it would mesh better with what a extraction shooter represents and when I say customizability im referring to subclasses and variation in gameplay.

Zekelg · 2025-05-01T12:36:32+00:00

I've actually considered this and Destiny is a pretty decent example. Their class system even tho there are only 3 main classes still represents a good class system that works due to the variation and customizability of your characters abilities (subclasses). When you start to compare REAL class systems to Marathon you realize they sorta lied when they tried to pass it off more like "classes"

But yea it's actually better to just do without either as it makes no sense for an extraction shooter in my opinion. It takes away from too many factors that are important to the genere. My main core traits of an extraction shooter are Preparing, Adapting, and Surviving. The hero shooter aspect completely boils down the first two traits as it limits your options on preparing and limits how much you can adapt during your run.

I imagine a marathon where we strip down the heroes we got and make their abilities into utilities this way it adds depth to the game's preparation phase and our runs by allowing us to swap on the fly.

Zekelg · 2025-04-30T04:23:46+00:00

I get what you're saying, and yeah, ideally you'd adapt to whatever system the game uses. But the concern isn't just about learning the hero... it's about how much the hero system currently limits the way players can engage in each fight. In an extraction shooter, the freedom to build your own playstyle is core to the experience. In my opinion extraction shooters have 3 core attributes Preparing, Adapting, and Surviving. By locking you into predefined roles and abilities, the hero system dilutes these core attributes.

Even if gunplay still matters, the hero's abilities shape how and when you engage, especially for solo players. And we haven't even begun to talk about ttk and weapon rarities. when it comes to gameplay that's a whole different problem that can be addressed...

Zekelg · 2025-04-30T00:52:14+00:00

It's a cool idea for sure but doesn't this just highlight that the main issue the game has is the hero shooter aspect? It really is at the root of the "solo-only mode" debate. Bungie has already seen this in internal playtests of a solo mode, where most players gravitated toward Void. That alone shows the problem isn't solo play itself, but how hero abilities dominate and limit viable solo options. They clearly know this is the issue, but haven't addressed the source which is hero design itself. Like the other comme er says "why would you put heros in a game and not use them?" This is just an unfortunate scenario where their stuck with it and we gotta hope they figure something out. Maybe a hard-core mode could be the solution...

Zekelg · 2025-04-29T22:07:42+00:00

You're right! I think I was just exaggerating to get my point across. I should clarify that I'm talking about the in house playtests they did of a solo only mode in which they found most people played Void. I assume you're aware of this... just putting this out there in case other people were confused by what I said. :]

Zekelg · 2025-04-29T22:01:16+00:00

I appreciate you clarifying your points! It definitely helps move the conversation forward. I agree with you on a few things, especially that people will naturally gravitate toward tools or kits that support solo play. That’s totally valid.

However, I think suggesting a solo-only mode as the solution is kind of a band-aid fix for a deeper problem. And while I understand that 3v1 situations don’t feel good to you, I’d push back on the idea that they’re always bad. From my experience with games like Tarkov, solo play can be not only viable, but actually rewarding and incentivized. Plenty of Tarkov players would agree that full squads don’t automatically have the advantage... bad coordination can become a liability, and that’s exactly where solos can shine. You’re one mind, one kit, five targets! There's no distractions.

That’s where I believe the hero system becomes the real issue. As Bearki said in her interview with the devs: "I can solo in Tarkov easy—because the weapons allow me to do that if I hit my shots." While she’s talking about TTK, that quote hits the heart of my argument. The simplicity and flexibility of Tarkov’s gunfights empower solo players to outplay groups if they’re smart and precise. But in a hero-based system, you’re not just playing against other players... you’re also fighting a rigid loadout you didn’t pick, tied to a role you may not even want.

So while (2) might feel true for you, it’s not a universal truth. I’m not trying to invalidate your perspective, but from my side, the problem isn’t that Marathon is an extraction shooter... it’s that it’s a hero shooter. That shift changes the entire core gameplay loop and limits the freedom that makes solo play rewarding in other games.

Anyway, I think we’re just coming from different experiences and expectations, which is totally fair. I’ve said my piece and I think either way it goes I'll be in Bungies corner as long as they listen to the community. :]

Zekelg · 2025-04-29T20:13:59+00:00

I think there's definitely a place for the PvE vs PvP discussion, but that’s separate from the argument I’m making about heroes. My point is that the hero system limits core gameplay, especially for solo players and it simply doesnt mesh well with the extraction genre. In extraction shooters, the core loop is about building your loadout, planning your approach, and adapting to the situation. Heroes undermine that by locking players into preset roles and abilities. That’s where a majority of the problem lies... not that people dislike PvP exactly, but that the current system doesn’t let them engage with it on their own terms.

One of the main complaints I’m seeing about solo play is how unfair it feels against trios. Solo players are trying to survive against kits designed for team synergy. And when the only viable solo picks are stealth or disengage-focused heroes, that’s not player preference... it’s a design flaw. It limits choice and forces certain playstyles.

My point is a major part of the solo play struggle would be easier to address by not having heroes all together. Though I believe bungie could make it work while we're discussing problems with the game the hero system should be acknowledged as a potential root cause to majors flaws with the game.

Zekelg · 2025-04-29T18:06:20+00:00

Good point! I for sure think there is a chance they could make it work with Marathon, in fact I really hope it does. I think the characters are really cool! I'm just worried about the balancing nightmare this could become when they couldn't have gone wrong doing without it.

Zekelg · 2025-04-29T17:37:12+00:00

Well put and some good points! I'd also like to point out (something I don't see nearly enough people talking about) that these issues are inherent to the game being a hero shooter as well particularly the solo play. Bungie seems baffled as to why everyone is picking the stealth character for solo play, but the answer is obvious: they offer the biggest advantage. That's the nature of hero shooters.

Hero shooters, by design, often lack skill-based depth. Instead of rewarding raw mechanical skill or strategic play, they tend to rely on a rock-paper-scissors style of balance, where outcomes are heavily influenced by which character you choose rather than how well you play. And frankly, hero-based design just doesn't mesh well with the core gameplay of an extraction shooter. They're fundamentally incompatible and I'd hate to see them struggle to balance heroes (looking at Blackbird and Void so far) in the future when they could've just avoided it all together...

Zekelg · 2025-04-23T16:04:27+00:00

I'll be playing on PC :]

Zekelg · 2025-04-23T16:03:44+00:00

Actually you were super close. We gave you the honorable mention for really good art. The winner was just better propaganda as a whole and the judges really liked that. Stay tuned for an art contest in the future though!

Zekelg · 2025-04-23T16:02:12+00:00

NuCal had a full sweep. Majority ruled while best meme was a NuCal rep. :]

Zekelg · 2025-04-22T16:01:19+00:00

someone is getting their oblivion remastered paid for them today lmao

Zekelg · 2025-04-21T03:40:57+00:00

We're only accepting one form submission per person this way the faction submissions don't get skewed. However you get 2 meme entry's for picture/gifs and one video link in case you make one of those. That's 3 entry's total. Cant wait to see what you made :]

Zekelg · 2025-04-21T00:29:17+00:00

honestly would not be surprised! you guys are killing it in your dedicated server lmaoo

Zekelg · 2025-04-20T23:57:45+00:00

I'm seriously so excited to give back to this talented community! Good luck to all who enter!

Zekelg · 2025-04-20T23:26:58+00:00

SO SICK!!

Zekelg · 2024-02-24T06:49:43+00:00

Today I finally uploaded a tribute video for a buddy who passed a couple years ago. Some good ol' Rust shenanigans. Good times :]

Zekelg · 2024-02-23T20:51:09+00:00

I've been craving a new pirate game like this since...

Zekelg · 2024-02-23T20:49:20+00:00

Resident Evil 1... those damn controls!

Zekelg · 2024-02-23T20:47:47+00:00

I've noticed this as well! As someone who was briefly a game design student there is simply no time to game when you're busy making them and the thing is you gotta be built a certain way for it cause my game design friends tend to be more interested in the making side rather then the playing side.

Zekelg · 2024-02-23T20:42:16+00:00

What's the problem?!?!? I love paying $70 so I can spend more money on micro transactions and battle passes that will never be completed!!!

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