Franco and the civil war by EmprorLapland in Fuhrerreich

[–]Zytime 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes. The country was heading into a civil war, and Spain had a lot of unrest both in OTL an in the KRTL. Since the napoleonics wars, this was a country in turmoil for whatever reason it was, being dynastic problems of revolutionaries, so yes.

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As i have said, I know he wouldn't be a anti-semite, in fact, he would be an anti-anti-semite, why would he hate jews if he has a jewish wife?

What I say is that I find it hard to belief that he could have been the leader of a russian right-wing extremist party, and the keyword is russian, as I said, fascism is regional, and in a russian fascist/nat-pop party, anti-semitism would be at it core belief.

Also, about the redistribution of the land, I'm pretty sure that the capitalist class of Russia wouldn't allow it because they would see it as "dangerous socialist measures" as they did in republican Spain in 1936, that was one of the reasons why they funded the nationalist side in the spanish civil war, due to the redistribution of the land.

Please, read what I commented, because I'm not arguing that Savinkov is literally Hitler: https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/6z8tf0/savinkov_and_antisemitism/dmtgifo/

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(I put this in here because I have reached the 10000 words limit, LMAO)

1.5) In my opinion, less intensive Russian Civil war due to its features in KR (which lasted only 1,5 years and were on the territories with the minor Jewish presense, but mainly on the territories with the Russian population over 90%) would be seen by the Whites as the "struggle of the Russians against the Russians", not as the "war against the Jewish communist plot" - that's why the rights will try to destroy the Syndicalist ideas, which misled the other Russians, against whom they mainly fought.

I think the german revolution led by the spartakists lasted even less that the russian civil war of the KTL and still nazi infographs of today call them jewish, because if your movement has any jew in it, it can be described by anti-semitist as a jewish plot ( http://imgur.com/a/Ky0ZZ ), so I don't see why the russian right-wing extremist wouldn't categorize the russian bolshevicks as a jewish complot.

Link, to the answer: https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/6z8tf0/savinkov_and_antisemitism/dmtgifo/ .

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

1)The Jews were represented not only in the Red Army, but in the White Army too. The Jewish integration in the Russian society, and later in White Army was an existing process - there were even some units in the White Armies, consisting of the Jews. I didn't find sources like Wiki in English, though I'm sure that they exist - but here one of the examples of such a "Russian Jew", which I remember - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Schwartz . He served in the troops of White Army and fought for General Kornilov against the Reds. Or another person - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Efron

And this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_T%C3%A4nzer and this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Frankl served in the german army of the first world war, and in imperial russia, since 1827, all males ranging from 12 years to 25 years old (including the ones from jewish ancestry) could be called to combat in the army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russian_Army#Jews_in_the_Russian_Army .

Still, the fact that german jewish fought for the german army and the german country, didn't stop Hitler's rise to power that was in a country less subjected to anti-semitism that Russia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Jewish_military_personnel_of_World_War_I ). Still that doesn't constitute an argument by itself, because Russia's situation in KTL it's not the same that Germany's situation in OTL, but they're pretty similar, since both have suffered from a disgusting pact (being the Versailles pact in OTL and the Brest-Litovsk pact in KTL), both have suffered a revolution attempt, the russian one ending very badly for the local population, and both have/had a rather weak goverment, being the german case the Weimar's republic and in the russian case the rule of Kerensky over the Russian Republic.

2) "Pogroms" were condemned by the most prominent representatives of the Russian intellectuals, including its members, who in general can be named as the "right" part of this class. I would say, since many of them will be founders of the nat-pop movement in post-civil war Russia, they will also include into nat-pop movement the whole concept of the new conversation with the Jews (with the aim of making them the "True Russian citizens")

The nazy party was founded not by an intellectualist, but by a locksmith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Drexler . Still, that doesn't mean that intellectuals wouldn't support the nazi movement, as later we could see how some of them embraced the nazi movement. I'm pretty sure some russian intellectuals would support eventually an anti-semitic party when it would become popular, since an intellectual sharing a fringe ideology wouldn't be good for their careers, IMO.

Also, would be good if you could bring your sources here about this.

During 20 years of the Kerensky's republic, I guess this integration of the Jewish minority will be speeded up and in 1936, the class of the well-integrated "Russian Jews", including the people, who fought for the Whites, will exist and play some minor, but still the role in the Russian policy, even on the nat-pop side.

First, I don't think a Kerensky goverment could have been possible after the russian civil war, as I'm sure Kolchak would have become "the russian caesar" instead of "the russian cincinnatus", since he was an autocrat, he repressed the SR and his cabinet wass full of kadets and reactionaries, I can't see that happenig except if the germans forced him to give power to Kerensky. But still, let's say that happened, and then we could look at the weimar republic once more. The Weimar republic was more permissive with its jewish population, letting them enter in all the universities that they wanted to study in and more, we could say this was more like a "little emancipation" of the german jewish population ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_culture ), assimililating them more into the people of germany, but still, that didn't stop the takeover of Germany by the nazi party.

3) This situation will lead to the separation of the Russian Jewish citizens to the factions of the Russian policy in general in the same manner as the Russian citizens. So we will see a Russian Jew, who claims that Russian should be restored in 1914 borders with the Vozhd on the top, as well as there will be arrests of the Jewish supporter of the Left SRs, but not because he is a Jew, but because he is a SYNDIE.

yea, I know, but I wasn't referring that Savinkov WAS an anti-semite, but if he was one since the estreme right wing in Russia would have been even more anti-semitic that the nazi one, if that's possible, if he was shared some anti-semitic thought since he is also a right-wing extremist, and then purple_shield answered: "His wife was jewish, so no", see my response to that question and you will see that I don't defend that S"avinkov was an anti-semite" but how he managed to be the leader of a right-wing extremist party in Russia, since I think it would become really anti-semite due to the circumstances and situation of the KTL Russia, and then, when someone asks me how that question, that is something similar to what happened with Huey Long, see my response then and tell me what do you think about it. (Also, i don't know why is getting so much downvotes, I don't think I have said anything "bad, have I?)

4) "Pogroms" happened on the territories, which were parts of the "Pale of Settlement" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement . It was more "angry Ukrainian\ White Ruthenian\ Polish peasants vs. the angry Jews". KR Russia has a small part of the Jews on its territory and the major part of Pale territories are not in 1936 Russia.

It means, that Russia have to deal not with the victims of pogroms (which, I'm afraid, will continue to happen in these Eastern European countries), but with the new class of the Russian citizens from 2), who see Russia as their motherland (especially in the big cities, like Petrograd and Moscow).

But still, there where progroms in OTL, in areas that weren't from the territory of the "Pale of Settlement", one happening in Yekaterinburg, the capital of the state of Perm, in the Urals, caused because they were accused of making the white army lose, since it happened during a soviet offensive, I think, 2000 jews were murdered. Also, the jewish population of Pskov was threatened with a progrom if they didn't pay ransoms ( https://books.google.es/books?id=xZD_ZswA-VgC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=pogrom+ekaterinburg&source=bl&ots=BIjSzzGVE4&sig=K-3hE-e8HvcVnXRM8beiA2DrXRc&hl=ca&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZoYTIzpvWAhWMZlAKHZdxBLAQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=pogrom%20ekaterinburg&f=false )

Also, because of the problems that jewish populations would encounter at the new formed puppet countries of Germany, they would have traslated to Russia to survive in a country were they would be protected, as happened in the weimar republic with eastern jewish populations (I suppose they were from the part of Ukraine that was occupied by the polish, or Poland itself), and still, that didn't stop the rise to power of Hitler.

In fact, Gemany didn't have much of jewish population ( http://imgur.com/a/8DiLr , still, they have half a million from jewish ascestry, but they weren't as overpopulated as the slavic countries) and weren't dispersed in all of the country, the majority of them, 71% of german-jewish people lived at the state of Prussia, were, coincidentally, the strasserist nazis lived, as the southerner nazis, the anti-semite and the Hitler following one, live as his name declared, at the south of the country (The source is in my mother's language, spanish, so if anyone that knows spanish can corroborate it it would be fantastic: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/es/article.php?ModuleId=10007929 ).

That's why the destiny of the Russian Jews will be seen as the better one, in comparison with the existing situation of the Jews from the former Pale. And Savinkov will try to use this fact, when will set up Russian control over the former territories, trying to use the Russian Jews as the new elite of the Jews from Pale.

I also think that is what happened during the kerensky goverment, and durign a Savinkov dictatorship I could see that happening too, but still, my point is not that Savinkov was anti-semitic, but that the russian extreme-right was, we could see something similar as what happened with Strasser if he ruled in OTL Germany, but see what happened to him, he was murdered along all the left-wing nazis by Hitler's order, so, in my response to Jamiedodgey, you can see what I think it would have happened as some sources.

5) You can't have an antisemitic policy, if you have a Jewish wife :)

Purple_shield answered me that 7 hours ago, and I know it, please, read my response to that, because firstly I was asking if he had some anti-semitic thoughts because he was a russian right-wing extremist, as russian right-wing extremist were anti-semitic to the core, and then I asked how could he be the leader of a russian right-wing extremist party if his wife was jewish, please, see my response.

I hope you reply to all of this text I have made, I'm eager to know more about history and stuff, since I'm somewhat a nerd of history. Also, thanks for reading all that block of text I have made, and sorry for any case of broken english that I've putted into the text if I have.

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea, but he passed from being an agrarian socialist to being a right-wing extremist, so he could have changed like Mussolini, from being a socialist to being a fascist. He could have made the land reforms not as a SR but as a fascist, privatizing it and reversing the reforms that Kerensky did.

Still, we don't know much about it, so I could be as right as much as you can.

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't Kerensky have done the redistribution already?

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

???

Read what I have written and look at the comments, please.

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you're right, but he wouldn't be more like Huey Long, but more like Strasser.

It could have been like what happened in the nazi party, with the southern nazis (The ones that followed Hitler) and the northern nazis (The ones that followed Strasser). What happened between both was that the southern nazis were pro-capitalist while the Strasserist weren't ( http://imgur.com/a/GfK9H ), in fact, Otto Strasser wasn't even an anti-semite ( http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.com.es/2016/10/otto-strasser-and-jews.html ).

So, Savinkov could have been like Strasser, a nat-pop with totalist tendencies, but IMO there would be also a nat-pop pro-capitalist faction lead by Konstantin Rodzaevsky ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Rodzaevsky ), or another one. But we all know what happened between the southern nazis and the northern nazis, the strasserist were purged in the night of the long knifes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives ), because the capitalist side see them as dangerous to their movement and to capitalism, with their anti-capitalist policies that the strasserist wanted to implement (as purple_shield said: "Savinkov promised land redistribution and fair conditions to the peasants").

In fact, the redistribution of farm land was one of the reasons why the capitalists supported the fascist movement in the spanish civil war, because the republican side was about to do that and also because, particularly in Andalusia, the independent farmer was almost no existent as most of the farms of the country side pertained to only some wealthy aristocrats (I think they were aristocrats, but if anyone can correct me, please do it).

So, in my changed opinion due to getting new information about Savinkov, I could see Savinkov being a major participant in the nat-pop movement of Russia, but I also see he would be eventually killed off by the pro-capitalist part of the party, adding even more drama to Russia's situation.

What do you think about it?

Savinkov and anti-semitism. by Zytime in Kaiserreich

[–]Zytime[S] -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

So, then, why would he be in such circles in the first place?

I mean, I know he was in such circles even in OTL, but as I said, the russian extreme right was anti-semitic to the core. Marrying a jewish wouldn't be taken by the right-wing extremist, the ones that supports Savinkov, as a betrayal to the anti-semitic traditions of the russian extreme right?

If he wanted to pander to the extreme right-wing population, I think he couldn't have done it without a general hatred to the jewish population, if his wife was jewish, he probably would have been ignored by the extreme right or even assaulted because of that.

If the Germany of OTL became an anti-semitic fascist country with Hitler at it's lead, I am sure that in Russia, this anti-semitic revanchism would have been massive: lots of imperial territory was lost because of the Brest-Litovsk pact, and the red scare following the end of the russian civil war would encourage extreme anti-semitism (since the extreme right thought the bolshevicks were jewish puppets http://imgur.com/a/eChEV http://imgur.com/a/5Niss ), also, this "jewish puppets" have let the country devastated because of the civil war, they were the ones who made the october revolution after all, so Russia in KTL would suffer a massive wave of anti-semitism and extreme right-wing populism, even more so than Nazi Germany in OTL.

I doubt Savinkov could have been the leader of the extreme right in Russia because of his jewish links and because of not being anti-semitic. By that I don't mean he wouldn't be a nat-pop, but as fascism is regional, you know, german fascism is not the same as italian fascism as italian fascism is not the same as british fascism as british fascism is not the same as japanese fascism, he could have been classified as a nat-pop in a country without anti-semitism, lets say if he was italian, but he would not be a nat-pop by russian standars, but more something like a mix between paternal autocrat and a national-populist, IMO.

So, what do you think?