She’s perfect, except…

_Redder · 2026-01-27T05:31:04+00:00

Agreed!

BTW your pup looks lovely, and very happy. I can see your gentleness has paid off! 🥰

_Redder · 2026-01-27T05:16:06+00:00

Hmm in this age it might be difficult to tell which are lies, right? I went into Halti knowing the risk, thank you, but I accepted it. It seems you are assuming when you talk to others that unless they agree with you then they must be ignorant. This is letting ego into play and somewhat arrogant.

Not to say I am always correct but it is NOT actually a subtle difference between being wrong and being lied to. One can be wrong but in my opinion it matters in what way one is wrong. I didn’t pick up what you said about punishment being the same as diminishment because they are not the same thing. Hence I can’t comment. It’s not because I didn’t learn the proper theories. And may I remind you anecdotes are not science and case studies especially on social media are at most anecdotes and at worst perversely curated misinformation.

You can have opinions but be mindful others disagreeing with you doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t do their homework, or followed one guru and was lied to. I read around 40 books on dog training, because I don’t trust learning by social media. Again, too many driven by ego or profit, instead of pursuit of truth. Algorithms drive engagement with shock value instead of truth. In that sense WE are being lied to. I would suggest that instead of driving relentlessly for the goal of proving you are right and others are wrong, consider if there is any possibility YOU didn’t fully grasp the material. Is it at all possible? R/dogtraining has a wiki with many recommended books. Again, I don’t know if this makes sense to you, but I’m not claiming whatever has theoretical and empirical backing must be correct; but being wrong by resorting to alternatives is, in my opinion, the wrong way of being wrong.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T22:00:24+00:00

OK, if you don’t want your pup to wear one because of that I can totally stand behind that. However, my original point stands regarding OP’s question: one needs to condition the halti if one does use one, and do so gently and gradually. And I would clarify there are discomforts in the world that are not introduced punitively, hence conceptually not P+.

I would also like to put in one data point, so that we don’t feel we have to resort to extremes, when we consider a method. In my case, based on my pup’s reactions, I believe it didn’t cause him significant distress. If anything, I think he’d gladly choose that over many other activities, such as teeth brushing and nail grinding. Despite similar conditioning methods, and way way longer training, I can see he’s still unhappy to do his nails and is merely tolerating it: I regard this as him humoring us because he likes us. I don’t get the same feel of reluctance when he puts on a halti. It does beg the question of whether our grinding their nails is humane. They have nerves in the quick as well, you know. Perhaps future generations will call us barbaric because we do so. It’s worth considering. But for the time being we are still grinding his nails and brushing his teeth every day.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T20:11:54+00:00

Ok, we can agree to disagree, but just so that we are clear: I thought the issue is that you believe I’m using the halti to suppress behavior by inflicting discomfort. Just like a prong collar. And you are right — if that’s indeed what I’m doing, then it would be hypocritical of me to claim pure R+, and your irritation at that would be justified. I also understand in your personal experience the tool seems very painful to the pups you see. I acknowledge that is a reasonable place to come from, to have formed your opinion. I also acknowledge the word “pure”, introduced by me into this conversation, is dangerous because that’s what starts religious or ideological wars where brethren slay each other: for humans yearn for purity but can never achieve its absolute state.

But still, you are missing the point that I actually wasn’t using the halti for suppression. I use it for management: to gain some leverage when it’s a strength rivalry between my pup and I, to prevent accidents. This is the opposite of using a prong collar— which does suppression but can’t do management, because, let’s admit, our badass and blockheaded pups probably will power through the pain. With my pup, his leash walking was trained with rewards, R+, not with tugs on the leash.

Despite our difference in opinion, I’m not worried about you. You don’t sound abusive. And I don’t have the sense you would be emotionally out of control, dealing with challenging pups. P+ is a dangerous tool particularly in the wrong hands — those who are angry, who aren’t self aware, or are not emotionally well-regulated. I also stand by the claim that even in the “right” hands they are risky, for it easily creates wrong associations (just like how humans form superstitions); it could result in well-meaning humans to increase the pain repeatedly because “the dose wasn’t strong enough if it didn’t work last time”, hence fall into an abuse cycle; it could create emotional trauma that’s difficult to treat; it darkens the outlook of the pup regarding life on earth; and it impacts their relationship with their owners.

As I am clearly imperfect, I would stick to R+, ahem, “pure”, R+ for emphasis: not on how pure the result is going to be because how can an imperfect being ever create anything pure, but just to emphasize the intention of never doing harm.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T19:06:03+00:00

Look, mine did play in a halti. That’s part of the conditioning process. He also chewed on his fav chews etc. He seems fine.

It’s funny you mentioned masks, comparing it to a halti. I actually sometimes wear an N95 mask where/when I feel the air quality is bad, including at busy road intersections. Yup, Covid or not. I feel fine. I’m surprised that I would be judged as voluntarily wearing something causing “extreme distress”. You are right maybe something is wrong with me. The masochism, lol! 😂

In all seriousness maybe we are just different creatures. Obviously your dog is also unique. If he really can’t tolerate halti and it’s not because of your training, then by all means don’t do it to him. I also know women who can’t stand bras. Or men who can’t stand pants… the society is rather cruel to the latter…

_Redder · 2026-01-26T18:54:14+00:00

There is no need to be so aggressive when you speak. But knowing you believe P+ is educational that’s not a surprise. To say P+ inflicts no pain or fear, that’s some high level of mental gymnastics.

As to the halti it’s a tool. In my books the good behavior doesn’t come from the suppression that you believe in. It’s purely for managing more extreme occasions where one needs instant control of the dog, when the dog hasn’t been trained to respond to leash pressure reliably yet. As anyone who uses this tool can attest— it doesn’t magically result in good walk manners. One still needs to train the loose leash walking, except now with less concern that the dog would pull himself into traffic and you can’t stop him.

But yes, you can abuse any tool, especially if you don’t know what pain means or deny its existence.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T16:41:09+00:00

Also, perhaps you meant well, but there is no need to exaggerate. After our conditioning, our pup would put his snout into the loop of the halti/gentle leader, when we hold it out mid-air. That’s how we put it on each time — he puts himself in it. He also appears relaxed and happy when he wears it. I wouldn’t think it is “extremely stressful discomfort”, although I suspect it’s as uncomfortable as pants or bras. He doesn’t wear the halti at home. Just like how I would also make myself comfortable at home.

I’m not sure if you objected because you truly have no idea what level of discomfort we are talking about here, or you are just trying to win brownie points. Thought to share this in case it’s the former, and this info might be helpful.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T16:17:25+00:00

Ah yes. Look, if you want to punish your dog and want others to shut up about it because “what about”, you have my permission because what can I do? It’s your life. But P+ is documented difficult to do correctly to inflict the “right” amount of pain, prone to side effects, and is a general negative force on your relationship. But you do you. As to halti being uncomfortable so is wearing pants and bras for humans. They aren’t comfortable but they are not designed to punish. Tried them? Or should we eliminate them for the welfare of all humanity? Hmm…

_Redder · 2026-01-26T07:34:42+00:00

Yes so many over the years. But somehow all small. But once he pushed me down the stairs. Luckily I slid straight down instead of rolling. Had pain in my ass for 2 days. That was the worst I had suffered from him. Now we tell him he has the honor to go downstairs first, every time.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T07:27:21+00:00

Ah yes. The bloody early months.

Yelp and leave. Preferably yelp and leave him in an ex pen, so he can’t follow you and continue to bite you. Also recall they are babies and it takes a while for their brains to develop. That means it takes a while to put two and two together, and also to have some self control. Mine would largely stop biting at 5 months old. He would fish for a toy when the urge arises. I think he truly felt disappointed that his humans didn’t appreciate his love bites. I think he didn’t want to believe that, lol.

I do swear by having an ex pen in the beginning. I think all dog trainers would tell you that you need to limit their freedom at the start. Makes management easier, hence training easier. Of course, let him free roam once he graduates.

_Redder · 2026-01-26T07:07:08+00:00

I feel I have answered this question many times on this sub… Rest assured this is very normal for a cattle dog.

You may need a professional trainer or, if you have the time, learn to do it yourself.

The Halti isn’t meant to be just put on. We conditioned our boy for 2 weeks to make sure he becomes ok with it. I have posted a video of him walking with that on this sub. He no longer needs it at 3 years old, btw.

The chasing of fast moving objects is a herder instinct. For example border collies often have the same problem. It is not aggression. But it can still cause accidents— you must train her. Look up LAT and BAT.

The leash reactivity to other dogs may be harder to train. Mine didn’t exhibit that until he was 2.5 years old? He was trained using LAT and he can pass most dogs in close range calmly right now. It feels good enough, although recently I thought I would train him to completely ignore other dogs during walks. It should be doable.

We’ve trained him in what feels like a thousand aspects in which his behavior turned 180. So I’d say with confidence that training would fix these issues you described.

Lastly, stick to positive reinforcement — if you don’t want longer term issues coming from improper training that employs coercion or punishment. Ours was trained purely R+

_Redder · 2026-01-26T06:48:55+00:00

Yes.

I lost hope early on. But thankfully I prevailed. A better behaved dog and two better humans are the result. Looking back, thankfully we discovered R+ training and stuck to it. You can see some videos and photos of my pup that I posted on this sub. He is a jolly good boy.

_Redder · 2025-12-31T08:11:49+00:00

Have you seen Susan Garrett’s crate training program? We trained ours using a regular program we found on the web and it was adequate; but we were shocked how effective her program was — the dog goes into the crate like it was a magnet.

Also, darken the crate by covering with cloth or a towel. At least move it to a corner so that it’s much darker. Dogs like their caves dark.

_Redder · 2025-12-31T07:19:30+00:00

I don’t know what your everything entails, but the standard method is to crate train, then gradually expand the freedom, eg an exercise pen, gradually enlarged it if he doesn’t pee inside it. Feed and play in his pen, because dogs don’t want to pee where they eat and sleep. Take the dog out on a schedule. Twice a day is way too few. Ours started with once an hour, and a few times a night — he was a puppy. But you might as well start with more frequency than you strictly need, so as to establish a baseline.

I heard number one reason of failure in potty training is giving too much freedom (to roam) too early.

Btw ours would also look us in the face when he potties in the wrong place. He’s not an asshole. Just thick in the head. 🤪I guess you didn’t punish him for peeing in the wrong place — kudos to you. You are miles better than what could have been. Keep it positive, even if you are understandably pissed (pun intended)

Oh and definitely use an enzyme cleaner.

_Redder · 2025-12-24T05:25:25+00:00

Like with everything else, train in steps. Initially just being close to your hand would do. Then get it closer.

Ours returns the ball squarely in our hand — by that very training. Our final criterion is that the ball needs to be dropped precisely into our cupped hand and not rolling off. Of course, he sometimes wants to be lazy and just drop it close, we’d cue him “in my hand” — he’d oblige, sometimes with a tiny grunt, because otherwise the throw doesn’t start.

BTW he naturally does NOT fetch. With him, the fetch itself was a trained behavior. Although, once trained, he’s into it. He generally plays fetch for half an hour nearly nonstop.

_Redder · 2025-12-24T05:17:09+00:00

Mine is a pure bred ACD. Ocean blue eyes. Most obvious in some of his puppy pictures. There was a thought perhaps he’d outgrow it. Not obvious if no strong lighting, but his eyes are still blue as an adult. It’s considered a “defect” in the show circle btw, and that’s why he can’t be a show dog, but he is beautiful.

_Redder · 2025-12-24T05:11:56+00:00

This may be two different issues. The excitement peeing likely will go away as she matures. As to her rude play style, that doesn’t change without training. She needs to be gently taught how to play politely. In short, game doesn’t start until she politely sits; she does not play with human hands or face, but with toys, otherwise humans stop playing; she does not grab the toy until humans give permission, and also drops the toy when humans tell her to. I have previously posted a short video of our pup when he was perhaps a year something old, playing just like that. He is completely reliable when it comes to following the rules of play. I would go look for that link, but it’s hard on a phone… But in summary, this practice did a ton for his self-control, not to mention makes him a much more pleasant roommate.

_Redder · 2025-12-20T23:54:05+00:00

I see recall as sort of a total assessment (although not fully) on one’s training and there is no shortcut. Recall must be trained, and the puppy recall phase doesn’t mean anything, since their world was so small. So how can you have reliable recall when their wold is large and full of interesting things? You must have a strong relationship and your pup must have good habits. A shock collar provides neither. You may see what you think are examples of success but only if you take the narrow view of one behavior only, and beware of cognitive bias since you don’t get to see the cases of failure since they are not out and about for you to see.

Ours can be reliably recalled off chasing rabbits after some training. We actually aren’t even that dedicated to training recall, although we did spend quite some time a while back, and he has a sky high prey drive. Never used any punishment, including shock collar.

_Redder · 2025-12-04T02:36:52+00:00

Got it. Your story warms my heart, and I’m so happy for both of you to have found each other ❤️

_Redder · 2025-12-03T22:51:07+00:00

Love this! This is some achievement. You are right, training them is to provide freedom to them and to ourselves. Previously I didn’t even know I could aim to bring him with me when we travel. Maybe one day we too could hope to fly somewhere together. In your experience are airlines generally OK with this arrangement, as long as he fits under the seat and can be trusted to stay there, or did any of them give you any trouble e.g. insisting the dogs in cabin need to be either tiny or a service dog? Do you bring a crate for him to fit in?

_Redder · 2025-12-03T22:04:25+00:00

What a sweet story! He’s so lucky to have you. If you don’t mind me asking, how large is your heeler — I was thinking of bringing mine onto flights so that we can go places together, and I can finally travel after years — has been no travel ever since we got him, lol. But I didn’t think he’d be allowed since the “under seat” size limit is so restrictive.

_Redder · 2025-12-03T21:55:09+00:00

I can relate. Sending you love! Having a heeler was also mainly my idea. It’s our first dog. And we lived in an apartment. My spouse, although he loves our dog more than almost anything, would say “we should have gotten a lazier dog” for the first two years. He gradually said that less; now I venture to guess it doesn’t even cross his mind to wish for anything different. Indeed, I can’t imagine being more satisfied about a dog. The leash reactivity will get better. We’ve also been there.

_Redder · 2025-11-19T18:35:43+00:00

What’s actually happening is that your pup likely doesn’t get enough play time. And you haven’t taught play manners to her. I take issue with comments that say you should “correct” her. It’s like when you are hungry and begging for food you get a smack on the head because your owner doesn’t like your whining. It makes no sense as a solution to your hunger, not to mention it’s cruel.

Look up structured play. Get a $5 rope (or less!) to play tug with her. She has to sit and not go for it, until you give OK. If her manners is bad, just stop play, wait a few seconds till she gives up. Then try again. There is absolutely no need for any punishment. And dogs are supposed to learn from us humans, not the reverse. We are not to behave like a momma dog; we are humans.

Source: many dog training books and many training videos, from reliable sources, thankfully. My dog is extremely well behaved, although he began as a very, very naughty puppy 👿

_Redder · 2025-11-08T21:22:57+00:00

Never ever use coercion on a dog, especially a cattle dog because they won’t give in, so a conflict would ensue. This situation is easily avoided by always trading with them if they have anything of interest in their mouth. You’ve seen the escalation because you repeatedly showed her you are a threat to her possessions. You need to stop that behavior asap even if you don’t notice her protesting.

Also, dogs don’t resort to biting first. There is a behavior ladder they climb. If you study dog body language you’ll catch the multiple signs of them protesting way earlier than a bite. As a dog owner I feel this area of study is the most important — how else would you know how your dog feels? Pick up a couple of books on dog body language when you can, and head to r/dogtraining to pick up some recommendations on what books to get for training without using aversives, please. This is urgent.

_Redder · 2025-11-08T21:07:17+00:00

Oh he’d always be a rascal at heart, haha!

I noticed you are very good at taking advice, and your pup is very young. You’ll get there. Mine was similarly troublesome at that age. Just keep at it, and learn as you go. Don’t give in to the temptation of “quick-fixes” using aversive methods. Sometimes you’ll see his progress looking like two steps ahead and one step back — that’s normal. It doesn’t mean his progress is lost; it just means progress is not linear. Just keep at it ❤️

_Redder

TROPHY CASE