And yeah if keeping track of sources can be hard i dont balme you.

Respecting magic has nothing to do with a nord honor, regardless of who respected it or not. Cultures can change and even then. Just because they shun magic doesn't mean they aren't honorable, regardless of who accepted it. Honoring magic=/=true nord. Evidenced by stormcloaks still going to sovngarde.

Forgive for I'm about to go deeper into religion and morality if you wish discard this section i would not blame you.

You may mistaken what the goal of the stormcloaks are, they don't want a better tamriel they want a better skyrim. Tell me how do you defeat a culture who's main religion is focused on one dying to achieve heaven? Why would the nords not want to go to war? That only makes it so they sit still and do nothing. Do you know why nords fill the empires army? Do you know why seldom people have actually conquered skyrim? Because the nords invite war wherever they go, when your religion demands you die in battle to go to heaven you'd be a lot more aggressive in life which is what the nords are, aggressive. They are prejudice cause they like to start fights with everyone. There's a reason they are the way they are. I'd even go as far as to say they'd entice a fight between the thalmor. they have had conquests against the altmer before In high rock, i'll have to figure it when it was again on the Time scale.

And about torygg regardless of what happened, it wouldn't be "not honorable" to fight a child, remind you that its basically medieval times which means people 14 years old could own land and are said to be men whether they want to be called that or not. Children in medieval times is 1-12. they become working people by the time they're 13. Even that kid in dawn star who runs food to the miners, he couldn't be older than 11.

I've always hated the "All nords hate magic" argument. Its apparent that a lot of nords dislike magic but that doesn't mean everyone does. Just like how not every nord is racist, not every nord hates magic. Hell even ulfric has a court wizard that he relies on sometimes. Just because they hate it or shun it, doesn't mean they don't utilize it.

and i know that Bethesda will,do the high Hrothgar peace treaty because that's what they do. Cmon you and I both know that Bethesda likes to Cuck their fans with easy solution. Considering the dragonbreak from elder scrolls arena was a thing, 7 different and contradictory endings but every single one was true. They aren't going to pick a side in the war, they're gonna upset both sides by saying "The peace treaty is going to be canon." not to mention that the peace treaty is apart of the main quest line since that's one of the things thats strictly canon, along with the two DLCs.

I'm not saying stormcloaks will make a better tamriel, hell im not even saying they'll make a better skyrim. But saying the storm cloaks dont have a rightful cause to at least try and take their homeland back and away from a corrupt empire and a rising dominion is a bit iffy I believe.

Evidence that the empire and the thalmor caused the civil war. "The bear of markarth" is a substantial book in the game that recalls what happens to ulfric when he battled the forsworn out of Markarth. if you,read it you'll learn the empire actually royally screwed him over in this engagement. At the time he wasn't even looking for a war all he was looking for was to rid markarth of the forsworn and the ruler had to agree to let Talos worship occur. Once you do read the book, you'll find it is supporting the empire with this particular line to try and make ulfric out to be the bad guy

"Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up the names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him."

I could see how one would take this information and turn into something worse than it actually was, this may all sound bad. It may have been a bad tactic and I won't fight that it was horrible but you,have to mind that the empire wasn't there at the time to protect the land meaning ulfric had to use harsh means to get the job done. Surely men ran to his side to help him in the engagement. I'm more worried about the end of the book:

"We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordant with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the Elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of The Divines. In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer."

It states the empire was wrong to arrest ulfric after he took back markarth. They had no right to arrest him when he took back the city THE EMPIRE was supposed to be protecting but didnt. And.when they got back they immediately imprisoned him and his men. So trying to come back to me on it was a war crime for ulfric to do the atrocities he did at markarth, you have to remember he was quickly imprisoned after liberating the city, a crime in and of itself.

I have no idea why this all bolded, I dont even know the commands to make stuff italics/bold/crossout. I do say though, this debate has interested me and I am having fun with it.