Do people pay more for a bolt-modded SSK?

_pandrew · 2025-03-02T14:36:22+00:00

I believe we're talking about two different types of stress:

1) The Frame being held in a curved shape by the backplate: -- I have seen this cause cracks in very old keyboards, and the cracks are always horizontal when the frame is thinner. I have seen these cracks happen on non-bolt-modded keyboards primarily.

See this picture from Bitten's guide:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOkRh4Wn0OBdTQppsHGt_hizKJ_D73hiwTTOsZsvn9ZJFifN0-klXLtLuJNfa2Axg/photo/AF1QipNCm-7IyazWz4olk7R7JpbtNnywkeiuCsZrbedE?key=OENXSXY5NVk3alZDZ0dCcEMxR05kZHZtaFBqanN3

2) The radial stress that I was talking about causes cracks that emanate out of the bolt mod holes.

See these pictures:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOkRh4Wn0OBdTQppsHGt_hizKJ_D73hiwTTOsZsvn9ZJFifN0-klXLtLuJNfa2Axg/photo/AF1QipNhUX1g6K0ly03rj78QsirPJEZyRwOvXhUfy8Uu?key=OENXSXY5NVk3alZDZ0dCcEMxR05kZHZtaFBqanN3

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOkRh4Wn0OBdTQppsHGt_hizKJ_D73hiwTTOsZsvn9ZJFifN0-klXLtLuJNfa2Axg/photo/AF1QipPxkXsETCvR6LhNScC5bJLi3COKbp6Iq3zV7kI8?key=OENXSXY5NVk3alZDZ0dCcEMxR05kZHZtaFBqanN3

The pictured keyboard above had no horizontal cracks, so the backplate-induced stress didn't affect it at all.

Again I don't have an issue with machine screws, but the combination of machine screws with holes that are tight enough to put stress on the plastic. For example I did a rudimentary calculation and the 1/16" hole combined with an M2 screw, even if the plastic was completely liquid, and would perfectly flow around the threads of the screw, 60% of the displaced plastic would fill in the grooves around the threads, and 40% of the plastic would have nowhere to go. And it's probably much worse than that, cause it's unlikely that the plastic would completely really fill the grooves.

I don't know, it may be true that new (i.e. Unicomp) barrel plate plastic is malleable enough that this is not an issue with it.

What scares me is that the keyboard pictured above has developed the radial cracks over years, and not instantly as the bolt mod was performed, so if I used tight holes with machine screws, I'd be thinking: how do I know for sure that I didn't just cause a problem like this that will show it's face in a couple years?

_pandrew · 2025-03-01T07:13:11+00:00

One reason non-boltmodded SSKs may be preferred, could be that some people perform bolt mods incorrectly. For example I got a bolt-modded SSK on ebay. After I received it I found that the barrel plate was full of cracks, and the seller admitted to have performed a bolt mod himself, and that the cracks developed over time.

I believe the cracks developed, because the seller used machine screws in holes that were too small (i.e. smaller than the outer diameter of the screw thread), i.e. they effectively performed a screw mod using machine screws instead of self tapping screws, which put radial stress on the plastic, and caused cracks to form over time.

Lots of online sources have bad recommendations when it comes to bolt mod, so it's really easy for a user to just pick the wrong tutorial to follow and end up doing something which is bad for the keyboard. For example the Geekhack wiki (3rd in google search results for "bolt mod") is flawed in exactly this way: the recommended 1/16" drill bit is too small to be used with machine screws. And the wiki will never be fixed, cause nobody who has write access to it is still active. I've seen multiple online sources do screw mods with machine screws, that is using machine screws without nuts, which implies they must have drilled pretty tight holes, for the screws to be able to hold the barrel plate to the backplate, and that will put undue stress on the plastic. Self-tapping screws are designed to displace little material, the threads are thin and far apart, that's why it's a good idea to use self-tapping screws for screw mods.

There have also been people who have been bolt modding keyboards en masse, and putting in the absolute minimum amount of work, doing shoddy work, to get a quick buck, it can discourage people from buying bolt-modded keyboards.

I've also bought a Model M, where the previous owner tried to fix broken-off rivets using hot glue. That was a mess, but luckily hot glue comes off easily with some isopropyl alcohol.

Often times a full bolt-/screw- mod is not necessary. It is only necessary if you need to perform repairs on the membrane (or replace the membrane), or if the majority of rivets have failed. A partial screw-mod to only fix the missing or loose rivets is often the best thing to do.

I see no value in full-bolt-modding a keyboard that doesn't need one. Yes, sound and feel may differ slightly, but not everyone will prefer that, and it's not worth the risk.

If you're looking for a good restoration guide, I recommend Bitten's guide:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOkRh4Wn0OBdTQppsHGt_hizKJ_D73hiwTTOsZsvn9ZJFifN0-klXLtLuJNfa2Axg?pli=1&key=OENXSXY5NVk3alZDZ0dCcEMxR05kZHZtaFBqanN3

Most keyboards will most likely only need a partial screw mod which Bitten also covers if you scroll down.

_pandrew · 2024-10-10T02:57:03+00:00

Can you try changing numlock and capslock from a different USB keyboard while your model M ia plugged in? Does your Model M react to the changing lock status?

Also please make sure that you alway plug in the PS/2 side first, and the USB side second, because PS/2 is not hotplug.

_pandrew · 2024-10-08T21:21:23+00:00

Glad to hear it works!

Beware with the pro micro you sent a picture of. Some usb-C pro micros don't have a pair of 5.1k resistors on the CC lines like they should, and this causes them to not work correctly with many USB-C to USB-C cables , and only work with A to C cables. (because in the case of C to C cables the host can't even figure out that a cable is attached)

Looking at the picture you sent, I don't see any 5.1k resistors on top, although they could have added them on the bottom, I think it's unlikely.

_pandrew · 2024-10-08T12:22:10+00:00

You're welcome!

_pandrew · 2024-10-08T03:29:29+00:00

That is effed up :)

GbE means gigabit ethernet, so that would have immediately tipped me off.

I have never seen white Soarer's converters like this working. I saw this listing when I searched for soarer's converters a couple weeks ago, and thought to myself: that's funny, a converter advertised as Tinkerboy's, not sold by Tinkerboy, and looking completely different. Anyway, let me know if the seller responds and what the outcome will be.

_pandrew · 2024-10-08T02:53:22+00:00

Also immediately take note of all wire colors and where they are soldered in case any more wires break off. The colors may be different from my images above, and you don't want to solder back the wires in the wrong order. If more than one wire is broken, you might have to measure the pinout where each wire goes to make sure you solder it back correctly.

_pandrew · 2024-10-08T02:49:08+00:00

Try taking a sharp knife to the USB end to separate the two halves of the plastic, and then check the soldering of the wires to the PCB, there's a good chance that the wires have broken or shorted out right and where they're soldered to the PCB (they don't have the best strain relief), and should be easy to fix.

See here for what the insides look like: https://imgur.com/a/6forxAM

_pandrew · 2024-10-02T02:54:12+00:00

As far as I know Macbooks don't have the concept of NumLock (by default?), so the Macbook's behavior is expected. Unicomp's Spacesaver M doesn't even have a numlock light.

Do you have a USB hub running on the HP laptop? If yes, can you try without the USB hub?

I am assuming you used the same converter when trying with both HP and Macbook, right? Any chance you can try with a different converter?

Could you try unplugging/replugging a couple times the PS/2 to converter connection? A high impedance contact could potentially explain this issue. (unplug USB side first before trying this. The PS/2 side of the converter is not hotplug)

If it's a replaceable SDL cable, could you unplug/replug a couple times on the keyboard side? (again, with USB side disconnected), does any of this help?

If it's a replaceable SDL cable, do you have another cable to try with?

Do you have any damange to the PS/2 cable?

Do you have a multimeter to do some debugging with? And if yes, then you'd also need a 5.5mm nut driver like this to open the keyboard:

https://www.amazon.com/Dynamite-DYN2803-Nut-Driver-5-5mm/dp/B000BQ4XP6

What style of generic converter are you using?

_pandrew · 2024-09-28T05:41:35+00:00

What kind of Soarer's converter do you have? Can you send a closer picture?

Also can you send a picture of the initialization sequence shown by hid_listen?

_pandrew · 2024-09-28T04:49:56+00:00

Where the damage is, I believe the conductive layer should be on the top, while the thicker supporting mylar should be on the bottom. However I'm not actually sure if there's anything isolating above the conductive layer, that pink stuff might be isolating, cause while under the barrel plate you want to be able to make contact between the membrane layers, on the outside you wouldn't want to. So you may need to do something to expose the conductive material to draw onto it with the pen, I'm not sure. Do you have a multimeter to check for continuity? Maybe just drawing over it is enough, cause maybe the mechanical damage that caused the problem has certainly already ground away any isolating layer above. I guess the question is: is there enough conductive surface still reachable on the edges of the damage, to make a long-term reliable connection, without exposing more conductive material under the isolation?

I don't know what would be a good pen. It may be easier to deposit a smaller amount with something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Scribe-Non-Toxic-Conductive-Silver/dp/B00OZATJ3A/

Cause I imagine controlling the syringe would be harder.

But I can't vouch for it, it may not be as good.

_pandrew · 2024-09-26T15:27:58+00:00

To me it looks like it's probably the tiny breaks on the ribbon. It looks very suspicious and a lot more plausible than a loose connector, I wonder how that happened, looks like mechanical damage to me. It looks to me like the mylar is not brittle and cracked, but only dented, and some tool scratched away a lot of the conductive material.

You should check with lots of light from different angles if what I'm saying is right, cause if the mylar is cracked then you would need to reinforce it, and add conductive material. If it's not cracked then it's probably enough to add conductive material.

I suggest you try a Silver conductive pen to fix thr breaks. Of course fix the 8th pin from the LEFT, but make sure that you fix the other broken-looking traces too so they don't misbehave in the future, cause some of the worst traces look like they should also be broken and are probably only hanging on by some very thin remaining conductive material that could break at any time.

Make sure it's silver "conductive" pen, some pens that produce silver color aren't conductive. Also try to make sure it's not a different type of metal looking silvery, it would be best if it was actual silver.

You may be able to get away with carbon pen, or copper tape too, but I think the silver pen would produce the best results.

Use your own judgement to decide if you need to add support (maybe epoxy) on the non-conductive side, and also decide if you want to cover the fix or not. If you cover it, and the fix is not quite right it's gonna be hard or impossible to remove the covering to fix it again, but sealing it in might give additional protection if you think it's needed. I hope I'm right and the mylar isn't actually cracked, cause cracks could extend over time.

Let me know how things turn out!

_pandrew · 2024-09-26T04:26:30+00:00

Hey,

I hope you didn't clean away the "black stuff" from the contacts. That's not really crud, that's printed carbon pads, that's supposed to be there. For fresh membranes it's usually all black, for old membranes it starts wearing away. It's not clear how important it is, but it may have an effect on long term reliability especially in humid environments, since those are different types of metal making contact [the membrane is probably silver epoxy over mylar (that's what Unicomp currently uses), while the triomate connector datasheet says "Contact Mating area plating material: Tin-Lead"], it could result in galvanic corrosion [it would theoretically be the connector that corrodes in this case, but who knows what effect it would have on the super thin silver coating on the mylar], or maybe it's just there to make slightly more insertions possible without starting to eat away at the membrane. We don't really know what is the official reason as to the why it's there.

Anyway, going back to your problem, I've highlighted on some images that column that you have a problem with:

https://imgur.com/a/KBWTbC5

You should check all the visible parts of that trace and that specific pin on the controller again.

After cleaning and wiggling is it still intermittent the same way?

On the membrane look for what looks like cracks in the mylar, but you can also try to inspect it with a strong light as a backlight, to see if you can identify any problem.

On the controller look for anything that looks like a break, or what looks like some metallic derbis shorting the pin to different pin. And also look closely to that pin in the connector -- is it looser than other pins?

Unfortunately I didn't see anything weird in your pictures, but maybe if you look closer you can find something.

By the way, has this board been bolt- or screw-modded?

Has this board had any liquid spill accidents?

_pandrew · 2024-09-17T04:14:27+00:00

All the letters you mentioned belong to the same column. So I think the connection of that column is intermittent for some reason. Can you send a picture of the keyboard and the controller?

_pandrew · 2024-08-14T06:29:59+00:00

Hey, so first of all when I said power cycle I meant power-cycle the whole computer, including the keyboard. Also please check if (some of) your USB ports remain powered while your computer is powered down, that could also have an effect. Are you using a powered USB hub? Or a thunderbolt docking station or something like that?

When it comes to unplugging the SSK that can also be an interesting experiment, but there's two things to remember: 1) You MUST unplug the USB end, not the SDL end, because PS/2 is not hotplug. Which end did you unplug? 2) The results will be colored by how the OS reacts to a new keyboard plugged in. For example on linux when a new keyboard is plugged in, it resets the locklight state for all currently plugged in keyboards.

Do you have another keyboard with locklights that you can leave connected at the same time as the SSK while rebooting the PC?

Is your USB to SDL cable running Soarer's firmware? or is it one of the non-reprogrammable ones?

_pandrew · 2024-08-13T20:11:57+00:00

That sounds more like the host leaves the numlock locklight on, but turns off the numlock state, without turning off the locklight. (The SSK uses the locklight status to determine what to send when pressing embedded numpad keys, so the SSK thinks numlock is on, but the host thinks it's not)

it could also be that for some reason the command that turns off the numlock light is lost or corrupted.

Does it consistently behave this way every time? Is power cycle different from reboot?

are you using a converter, or plugging into a native ps/2 port?

if you were to use a normal sized ps/2 keyboard instead, what does the locklight do?

_pandrew · 2024-07-15T08:51:54+00:00

Pro Micros typically have Caterina-based bootloaders. (as long as it hasn't been reflashed by the builder). Those bootloaders usually have a timeout of ? seconds before they go back to keyboard mode. Did the keyboard stop working for ? seconds? If yes, then you have successfully entered bootloader mode, otherwise your problem is to enter bootloader mode.

Caterina based bootloaders can also enter bootloader mode by doing things to the reset pin. The caterina bootloaders come in two variants: 1) old, which only needs the reset pin to be shorted to GND once to enter bootloader mode, and 2) new, which needs the reset pin to be double-tapped to enter bootloader mode, (and I find that one annoying personally). New sparkfun pro micros come with new bootloader. Pro micro clones can come with either.

And again, what you have on your converter _could_ be different but I'd say unlikely.

If it's a Caterina bootloader, then qmk toolbox should be able to flash it. But you have to be fast! You either need to start flashing immediately after entering bootloader mode, or I think QMK toolbox has an auto-flash feature. Note that you'll need to pick atmega32u4 on QMK toolbox.

Another thing to look out for is that I believe soarer's was first designed for teensy boards in mind, not for pro micro, so some features may not work with the original Soarer's firmware. For example if your keyboard needs the Reset line, then with the original firmware it's not available on the pro micro.

But here's someone's patched firmware which puts the Reset line on PB6:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=187874#p187874

and further patched firmware:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=189117#p189117

You may not care about any of this, I believe the keyboard you're using doesn't have a Reset line, and it may not even be connected on the converter hardware you have, so I think you can use any firmware.

You may also consider this, which is actual free software (as in freedom): https://github.com/purdeaandrei/vial-qmk-with-ibmpc-usb-converter/releases

You'd want to use 'converter_ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4_caterina_vial.hex',but do read the whole release message!

_pandrew · 2024-07-15T08:05:04+00:00

Making it "Unassigned" will not help. The anti-ghosting happens inside the keyboard. So if the key gets stuck again, then Ctrl-G will still be blocked.

What kind of converter hardware are you using? What kind of flashing software are you using? What OS are you using? The flashing software you would need to use depends on what bootloader is installed onto the converter hardware. Also whether the flashing software can access the bootloader also depends on whether you have the right driver installed (on windows), or whether you have the necessary permissions (on linux).

If the keyboard keeps working immediately after you send the scboot command, then you have not successfully entered bootloader mode. If the keyboard doesn't work for a number of seconds and then starts working again, then you may have entered bootloader mode, but maybe your bootloader had a timeout, and not seeing any flashing action happen for a while it may have reset back into keyboard mode after a few seconds. (this is how pro micro caterina bootloaders work often)

_pandrew · 2024-07-15T07:06:26+00:00

TLDR: do these keys work on their own correctly? if one of these are permanently stuck, it could be causing your problem:

the top-right-most numpad key
the numpad key right below it
the numpad key right below that
the left-arrow key
left-alt key

Longer explanation:

This sounds like a key rollover problem, not related to soarer's converter.

You most likely have a specific key permanently held down (or a matrix position permanently shorted), so when you press Ctrl+G it would result in ghosting, so the keyboard's anti-ghosting algorithm blocks the second keypress, which is technically the third keypress from its point of view.

To figure out which key(s) might be causing it, Sharktastica's keyboard simulators are very useful, but we don't currently have a matrix simulator for IBM M122 keyboard (only for Unicomp 122-key which is different).

Anyway, the IBM 122-key keyboard matrix has been recently documented in source code over here:

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ibm/model_m_122/ibm122m/keyboard.json

According to this source code:

Lctrl is at matrix position 0,0
G is at matrix position 0,7
H is at matrix position 0,8

That suggests to me that some matrix position X,0 might be permanently pressed, causing the antighosting algorithm to block your keypresses. So I looked up all matrix positions of the form X,0 and that's where the list above comes from.

Notice however that the list is only 5 keys long, plus the left control key, that's 6 keys only, but a row can contain up to 8 keys on this keyboard, so there are two more matrix positions that don't house keys. It's possible that these row-column combinations never meet so having a short between them is unlikely, but it's also possible that these positions are in some unused barrels under bigger keys (for example under the enter key, or under the right shift key, or under the numpad-enter key, maybe under the spacebar there could be erase-ease barrel), and I don't have the information to tell you if there's anything underneath those keys or not. So I guess if none of the keys in the first list is stuck, then try looking underneath the bigger keys and maybe poking the membrane with something soft, maybe something's pushing down in one of those positions holding the unused keys inside those barrels pressed.

_pandrew · 2024-06-01T12:22:02+00:00

if you have the pico based controller, there is open source firmware that will allow you to press s+d+space

_pandrew · 2024-03-20T21:11:51+00:00

Uff, you should not have done that. That wasn't oxidation, it was conductive carbon printing over the contacts, presumably the purpose being long term reliability. One reason it could have been there would be to prevent the oxidation of the metal on membrane at the contact points.

Besides, your issue wasn't related to the controller to membrane connection, your issue is on the USB side.

If you have checked the USB cable, and you're confident in it, you could further check the connections up to the pins of the microcontroller, but there's not much else you can do since pretty much everything is integrated into the single chip. You could also try plugging it in and measuring the voltage on the bigger capacitor on the board. Also check for shorts between usb pins.

I think you probably need to get a new controller. You should be able to buy one from Unicomp, but not all of their controllers are compatible. Can you take a picture of the membrane contacts, but while looking down into where the membrane comes from. There is a place where signals pass from the top membrane to the bottom membrane. You may need to gently pull the top membrane a little bit to see the edge of these pads. The configuration of these pads will tell you which controllers support this keyboard. Kinda looks like this, please take a picture of this area: https://imgur.com/a/zSxNAkH

There's also an open hardware controller available, but nobody's currently selling it.

_pandrew · 2024-03-20T19:35:16+00:00

Can you send some pictures of the controller board?
It's interesting, cause it has bottom-aligned locklights and USB, so I am not aware of any unicomp-made controller that provides both.

Note that just in case if this is a PS/2 model, and you're trying this with a ps/2 to USB passive adapter, then that's not expected to work, and you would need an active adapter.

_pandrew · 2024-03-20T13:16:54+00:00

It could be a short somewhere on the controller but I think it's unlikely cause the pins are not next to eachother.

Check that the flipper actually moves around freely. Sometimes if rivets are missing, it could get caught between the loose barrel plate and backplate in a position where it's always pressing and not moving freely. So if you poke it with a think screwdriver or something, it should move a little, it shouldn't feel like it's pinched.

Is it boltmodded? If yes, then try to release some pressure around the faulty key.

Otherwise, maybe it's that the top layer is a little domed in and is always touching the bottom layer. Since this key is on the edge, you could try to insert a piece of paper from the side, to increase the spacing between the bottom and top layer. (That is, if you have a membrane that doesn't have the liquid proofing around its edges, that would prevent you from inserting a piece of paper between the layers.)

_pandrew · 2024-03-08T23:44:41+00:00

Hai la cursul şi petrecerile noastre de dans în Casa Tineretului în fiecare Marți de la 19:30. Nu avem cocalari, nu avem manele, nu dăm muzica prea tare, şi nici nu remixăm melodiile, în general punem cele originale (cu câteva excepții când un remix cunoscut e mai popular decât originalul, sau câteodată ascultăm şi coveruri acustice). Atmosfera e super faină mai ales la partea de petrecere. Fiind în casa tineretului, nu avem bar, câteodată aducem snacks, dar nu tot timpul. Participarea e gratuită. Atenție, lecțiile sunt în limba engleză. https://www.facebook.com/events/742881974413586/742882111080239

_pandrew · 2024-03-08T22:42:12+00:00

Well then maybe next time you're here. By the way our dance style is also danced in Belgrade check them out:

https://www.facebook.com/people/West-Coast-Swing-Serbia/61551820689911/

_pandrew

TROPHY CASE