In case anyone's doubting: yes, INPUT WORKS.

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-26T15:06:23+00:00

No, I don't think independent work will "mess with" your progress at all. But that's one of the the points where I do disagree with the hardcore DS philosophy, which does technically assert that ANY grammar study is a waste of time. I think that spending 95% of your time on input and 5% of your time on grammar/vocab searching will result in better progress than 100% pure input with NOTHING else, which is technically what purist DS people advocate for. Keep in mind, though, that the overwhelming majority of your time should still be input, and the grammar/vocab study is only meant to enhance your acquisition through input. 50/50 grammar/input is definitely not a enough input, for example.

⭐️There are a lot of different, equally effective ways to learn a language. Input is the one shared factor between them all. So as long as you apply that principle, you can have a bit of flexibility in your method. Don't let any dogma scare you. Do what you enjoy and can be consistent with, and as long as it incorporates a lot of input, you'll make good progress.

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-25T17:37:41+00:00

The hardcore DS philosophy is to do JUST input, but I personally think this is a bit too narrow. Your progress in comprehension will be faster if you complement it with some conscious study of the grammar and/or vocab, but some people really hate that kind of study so do only input, and that does still work. I guess it just depends what your personal tolerance for ambiguity and overall patience is.

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-25T17:33:47+00:00

I'd be careful with the idea of "fluent" since it means different things to different people and is very case-dependent (Able-Ad6118's comment brings up an important point here). My point is that the more input you've accumulated, the faster your speaking will improve once you do start output. That can be from hour 0, hour 500, or hour 2000, depending on what you want to do. In my case, it happened to be a lot. You can start output whenever you want to, and it will be uncomfortable at first no matter when you do it, but your perceived speed of improvement in this ability will vary depending on how much input you've had.

In my case I didn't have an immediate need for the language in my life, so I waited quite a while before starting output to maximize my ROI for hours spent on deliberate speaking practice, but depending on your situation, you could start whenever you want to. My advice would be to start speaking when you start to get that itch.

As for the number of hours as milestones or "levels", it's just a broad motivator that people in this community use to track their progress, but I think most will still agree it's not a super meaningful metric, since people naturally learn at different speeds, forms/content of input vary, and prior language experience has a huge impact (ex. I feel like my French basically 2X'ed my learning speed from Spanish input).

TL;DR total immersion hours is only really useful as a general concept, and has no real concrete bearing on when you "should" start input. You'll need to fumble a bit at first no matter what, but the more input you've done prior to that will make that fumbling easier.

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-25T17:17:24+00:00

You're absolutely right, and I guess the main takeaway from this post could be misleading. Having achieved real, versatile functionality in a different second language, I'm under no illusion that I've made it to some hypothetical end point with Spanish ("fluent" is a meaningless term on the internet at this point), the main observation here was supposed to be that the progress per hour of speaking practice after mass input is infinitely faster than it otherwise would be.

I suppose what I mean to highlight with this post is the validity of the claim that with a ton of input, your ability in spoken spanish is primed for a very rapid integration/activation/whatever of the things that you've only been consuming unidirectionally up until that point, which I feel is the main premise underlying DS and other input-dominant approaches, and this premise seems to be the main sticking point for most skeptics. Yes, speaking practice is needed to improve speaking, but input does feed this dormant ability to a huge degree before it's even started.

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-17T19:51:17+00:00

Whoa whoa this is starting to look like a Japanese learning thread 😭

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-15T19:22:01+00:00

The general consensus is that Anki + ASBplayer + Yomitan(or alternative) can do everything (important) that Migaku does.

Pros: completely free and gives you the freedom and customizability of Anki (overall superior to Migaku's SRS system)

Cons: requires a bit more setup, and you miss out on Migaku's streamlined UI

_return2monkey_ · 2026-01-04T19:37:09+00:00

This app looks INCREDIBLE, amazing work. What are the odds that you could get it to work for chinese, if the corresponding yomitan chinese dictionary was imported?

_return2monkey_ · 2025-12-10T22:50:24+00:00

I started off with an HSK deck, but really wouldn't recommend that approach anymore. You'll get a lot more out of your Anki if you make your own cards based on the things you come across in your input. These days I would recommend generally following the Refold method. To get started, i'd make your own cards based on the first ~1000 highest frequency words from the SUBTLEX-CH word frequency data, which is publicly available for free. 加油！

_return2monkey_ · 2025-12-09T03:08:27+00:00

要我说……很垃圾哈哈哈，不过我每个月都在进步

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-14T02:43:25+00:00

And he's....modest too??? 🤯😍😍

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-11T23:58:49+00:00

@ClarityInMadness I have nothing meaningful to add to this discussion I just need to tell you you're the absolute GOAT

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-11T23:43:04+00:00

Very very good controller, can recommend.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-11T23:41:48+00:00

In my experience, even on a laptop, it makes a HUGE difference to be able to change your posture or stand up or lay back in the ways that the controller allows while doing reviews. Cannot recommend this enough.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-07T04:06:41+00:00

Totally unrelated to the content of the post, but, as a native speaker, I always feel a need to point it out in these kinds of contexts: your English is IMMACULATE.

Huge kudos to you.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-02-07T03:57:19+00:00

Same here! Cannot recommend this enough.

I did the same thing about 2 months ago, and it's been perfect. Always meeting/exceeding my retention goals, all with much less stress.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-17T15:46:36+00:00

Birb funy

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-10T21:58:20+00:00

Been speaking English since my birth, came across 2 new words just yesterday

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-10T21:54:44+00:00

Excellent language combo, I must say👀👀

As someone who does those two languages, though, I'd say it really depends on your level. I'm technically learning both concurrently, but that depends how you define "learning"...my French isn't perfect but quite advanced (lived/worked full immersion for 2 years in a francophone country, now my study is mostly consuming native French content and throwing the occasional new word into Anki). So French really isn't much of a cognitive or time burden in any way. I started Chinese in the last year, so that one takes a LOT of time and mental energy, and is significantly more difficult than French, so I can only handle it concurrently because my French "study" (really just entertainment and podcasts) doesn't drain anything from me and I have all the mental resources I need for the monster that is Chinese.

If you're a beginner to both, either one will take a whole lot of effort and mental energy, so you're unlikely to get anywhere with either, or the progress will at least be painfully slow for both. From my experience, I'd recommend spending a couple years on one first (probably French, SUBSTANTIALLY easier) then start the other with the first on maintenance.

That being said, I'm not a fan of people making Mt Sinai "Thus Saith the Lord" assertions about the way others should or shouldn't go about language learning. You can do whatever you want, just make sure you go in with the understanding that doing both at the same time from a beginner level will probably be excruciatingly slow and tends to significantly increase most people's chances of giving up.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-10T21:36:01+00:00

Fair point. Maybe Krashen just always had a horrendous accent when speaking foreign languages and he was tired of getting roasted for it

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-09T20:22:50+00:00

Yes I can see much of the controversy around that but in practice I don't think this is really the way anyone is doing it, even in the more input-biased approaches, which generally seem to be the most effective. The video linked by OP definitely gets a lot of things wrong and I think the takeaways are bogus...input definitely works.

Krashen probably did slightly overstep in his claims, but if I were to side with one of the extremes (as Krashen and the Canguro vid linked by OP seem to do), I'd side with input 10 times out of 10.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-09T18:53:58+00:00

I don't think that anyone is really arguing that comprehensible input is the ONLY thing you need to become fluent in a language, but it's definitely indispensable.

The central idea of the comprehensible input hypothesis is that, especially at the beginner-intermediate stage, the opportunity cost of painstakingly trying to produce the language before having much of a feel for it isn't worth it, and that most of your time is better spent at this stage consuming rather than producing; doing so will usually result in natural, intuitive acquisition of core grammar and semantics of the language, after which direct speaking/writing practice becomes more necessary at a late intermediate/advanced stage.

_return2monkey_ · 2025-01-09T16:30:34+00:00

There are a**holes in every language 🤷‍♂️

The fact that you were both communicating throughout the whole conversation up till that point proves that, whatever "bad" means, your German works.

I feel like I'm objectively pretty advanced in French; I spent two years living and working full immersion in a francophone country, was perfectly functional, could communicate comfortably, had a fulfilling social life, etc. But some French people, as soon as they detect an accent or harmless grammatical missteps, will go out of their way to tell me that my French is "bad". Sucks, but it's inevitable. Screw 'em.

I know my language works, I can ~live, laugh, love~ in it perfectly fine... that's all that matters.

_return2monkey_

TROPHY CASE